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MikeThicke

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Cards I would ban / errata
« on: September 28, 2017, 11:13:35 am »
+3

Other collectable card games, both online and physical, regularly issue official bans and erratas. I've never understood why Dominion doesn't do the same, though I'm sure there is an explanation somewhere. If casual players are unaware, disagree with a ban or errata, then no harm done, they can ignore it. For more serious players and tournaments, and online where such changes are easy, I think the game would be much better for some minor changes.

(For context, I play exclusively two-player online. I'm level 58 on Shuffle.it, and generally play random matches.)

Here are some cards I would ban or change:

(1) Possession

Everyone's least favorite card. It makes games take forever, it gives a huge advantage to players with detailed rules knowledge (debt, tokens, etc.), it leads to degenerate game states, and it forces weird rules contortions for other cards. If there was ever a card that should simply exit the game, this is it.

(2) Tournament

This card is a combination of (1) overpowered and (2) very swingy. On a large portion of boards, being the first person to connect Tournament and Province is devastating, as one of the big 3 prizes (Trusty Steed, Princess, Followers) does something that otherwise isn't available. Plus, at +1 action/+1 card/+1 coin, Tournament on its own does just about what normally costs 5 (eg. Treasury). At the very least, this card should be costed at 5.

(3) Ill-Gotten Gains

Because IGG empties two piles at once, on many boards a player who rushes it can end the game before the other player could possibly implement alternative strategies. There are just way too many games where IGG dominates any other possible strategy, and those games are totally uninteresting. Of course there are games where IGG isn't good (when there is strong trashing), and occasionally games where IGG is viable alongside other strategies or where IGG has interesting synergies, but those are overshadowed by the more common, boring, one.

(4) Cultist

Like Tournament, Cultist is overpowered and very swingy. It is an attack, draw, and a village, costed the same as cards that do much less. If just one player goes Cultist, the game is usually unwinnable for the other. If both players go Cultist, very often one player will have a turn that chains many together, either emptying the Ruins or junking the other so much they can no longer effectively chain in retaliation.

(5) Sauna / Avanto

In a continuing theme, these cards do too much and are very swingy. They are early game trashing, and late game both village and draw. On many boards, if one player manages to collide Sauna + Silver early and the other doesn't, they can easily win the Sauna / Avanto split, trash much faster, and have a much stronger engine in the endgame. Sometimes there is better early trashing available and you can combat Sauna by not buying it yourself, so that it takes a long time to get to Avanto, but much of the time Sauna is the best or only trashing going, and both players are forced to contest it. The player who loses the split very often has no way to come back, since, as I said, this combination basically does everything.

Of course these are just my opinions, and I'm nothing special at Dominion, but based on my experience these cards really do make the game worse. And I don't just mean I have less fun---they make the games more frustrating, confusing, and especially high variance. I feel pretty strongly they should change or go.

Given the number of cards in Dominion now, I think it's pretty good to have only 5 cards that need changing. But why not make the game better if you can?

« Last Edit: September 28, 2017, 11:14:48 am by MikeThicke »
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Re: Cards I would ban / errata
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2017, 11:28:39 am »
+5

IGG is really not that strong. Unsupported and uncontested, the rush can’t possibly win before Turn 20, which is eons of time.

Tournament has gotten less game deciding now that games have more than just Tournament going on. Princess is the big one on boards without buy.

I don’t really feel as strongly about anything else either (except Possession), but just wanted to chime in on those two.
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Re: Cards I would ban / errata
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2017, 11:55:02 am »
+5

Other collectable card games, both online and physical, regularly issue official bans and erratas. I've never understood why Dominion doesn't do the same, though I'm sure there is an explanation somewhere.

That's because Dominion isn't a collectible card game.
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MikeThicke

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Re: Cards I would ban / errata
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2017, 11:58:32 am »
0

Other collectable card games, both online and physical, regularly issue official bans and erratas. I've never understood why Dominion doesn't do the same, though I'm sure there is an explanation somewhere.

That's because Dominion isn't a collectible card game.

Well it's not a trading card game. But how is that relevant?
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Re: Cards I would ban / errata
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2017, 12:04:18 pm »
+12

Well it's not a trading card game. But how is that relevant?

It's actually pretty relevant. If a deck in a CCG is too powerful, every game will be a mirror match of that deck. If a card in Dominion is powerful, you're not even going to see the card most of the time, and even when its present, the games have a lot of variety because the other 9 cards are still different every time.
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Re: Cards I would ban / errata
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2017, 12:15:32 pm »
+5

Well it's not a trading card game. But how is that relevant?

It's actually pretty relevant. If a deck in a CCG is too powerful, every game will be a mirror match of that deck. If a card in Dominion is powerful, you're not even going to see the card most of the time, and even when its present, the games have a lot of variety because the other 9 cards are still different every time.

This this this.

No single card in Dominion can dominate "the meta" like what you see in CCGs.

I think the closest example in Dominion is a card that wasn't mentioned: Rebuild. Some large percentage (90%?) of Kingdoms with Rebuild in it will be Rebuild mirror games with only minor wrinkles.

But unlike a CCG, you don't have players coming to the table with Rebuild in their decks. It's only a Rebuild game when it shows up, which is an increasingly small percentage of matches.
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Re: Cards I would ban / errata
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2017, 12:26:59 pm »
+2

Other collectable card games, both online and physical, regularly issue official bans and erratas. I've never understood why Dominion doesn't do the same, though I'm sure there is an explanation somewhere.

That's because Dominion isn't a collectible card game.

Well it's not a trading card game. But how is that relevant?

First, welcome to the site!

But anyway, you made it relevant by starting your post with a comparison about what "other collectible card games" do. That comparison doesn't work because Dominion isn't "another collectible card game". But as was said by others already, the primary reason that MTG bans cards from time to time is that tournaments and such become less interesting if all winning decks include many of the same cards. In Magic, a lot of the skill is finding the best possible deck, and then using that deck in every match. Dominion has a completely different skill involved, which is figuring out the best possible deck on the fly as part of the game itself, and which deck is the best one will always be different every game you play.
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Re: Cards I would ban / errata
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2017, 12:31:07 pm »
0

It's worth noting that errata is always bad. It's sometimes a necessary evil, because it's not as bad as the alternative. In a CCG, the alternative is having everybody playing the same dominant deck. That's very bad. In Dominion, the alternative is having some games with these cards being less fun than most games without them. That's bad, but not as bad as having errata.

EDIT: And, well, Dominion has done errata, mostly in the form of the second editions removing weak cards and adding better ones. And Possession has had significant errata to make it not awful with Debt tokens.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2017, 12:32:34 pm by LastFootnote »
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MatthewCA

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Re: Cards I would ban / errata
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2017, 12:37:09 pm »
0

Other collectable card games, both online and physical, regularly issue official bans and erratas. I've never understood why Dominion doesn't do the same, though I'm sure there is an explanation somewhere.

That's because Dominion isn't a collectible card game.

Well it's not a trading card game. But how is that relevant?

First, welcome to the site!

But anyway, you made it relevant by starting your post with a comparison about what "other collectible card games" do. That comparison doesn't work because Dominion isn't "another collectible card game". But as was said by others already, the primary reason that MTG bans cards from time to time is that tournaments and such become less interesting if all winning decks include many of the same cards. In Magic, a lot of the skill is finding the best possible deck, and then using that deck in every match. Dominion has a completely different skill involved, which is figuring out the best possible deck on the fly as part of the game itself, and which deck is the best one will always be different every game you play.

To continue with this thought, I really think the game would suffer if cards were outright banned or nerfed. Figuring out which cards and combos work the best on the board. It is very rewarding to find these interactions on your own during the game. Yes in CCGs you still think of these interactions and combos, but not during the game when the pressure is on, it's at home when you build your deck, then unleash your deck on your opponent. You don't have the luxury of trying to figure out the weaknesses in your strategy before you play. Nothing against CCGs, but I really prefer game where you have to think on the fly instead of ahead of time.
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Re: Cards I would ban / errata
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2017, 12:39:43 pm »
+1

It's worth noting that errata is always bad. It's sometimes a necessary evil, because it's not as bad as the alternative. In a CCG, the alternative is having everybody playing the same dominant deck. That's very bad. In Dominion, the alternative is having some games with these cards being less fun than most games without them. That's bad, but not as bad as having errata.

EDIT: And, well, Dominion has done errata, mostly in the form of the second editions removing weak cards and adding better ones. And Possession has had significant errata to make it not awful with Debt tokens.

Also, with regards to errata specifically (not banning); MTG stopped the concept of giving errata for power level purposes a long time ago; and reversed any errata they had done because of that. Now, errata only exists due to wording updates, much like Dominion did with most 2nd edition cards.
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Re: Cards I would ban / errata
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2017, 01:12:15 pm »
0

Other collectable card games, both online and physical, regularly issue official bans and erratas. I've never understood why Dominion doesn't do the same, though I'm sure there is an explanation somewhere.

That's because Dominion isn't a collectible card game.

Well it's not a trading card game. But how is that relevant?

Because it's also not a collectable card game, and so in any game everyone has the same access to the same cards.  Also there's no giant tournament scene so there's no need for official errata or ban lists.
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Re: Cards I would ban / errata
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2017, 01:34:09 pm »
+4

Thread where people were talking about banning cards in rated/tournament games:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=17506.0
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Re: Cards I would ban / errata
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2017, 01:51:54 pm »
+2

(1) Possession

Everyone's least favorite card. It makes games take forever, it gives a huge advantage to players with detailed rules knowledge (debt, tokens, etc.), it leads to degenerate game states, and it forces weird rules contortions for other cards. If there was ever a card that should simply exit the game, this is it.

No argument there, I would ban this, despite the errata, because you can use it to destroy your opponent's deck in other ways, such as moving +action/buy/card/coin tokens on the possessed players deck to hurt them, but it is not an attack, so in 3+ it gets political

Quote
(4) Cultist

Like Tournament, Cultist is overpowered and very swingy. It is an attack, draw, and a village, costed the same as cards that do much less. If just one player goes Cultist, the game is usually unwinnable for the other. If both players go Cultist, very often one player will have a turn that chains many together, either emptying the Ruins or junking the other so much they can no longer effectively chain in retaliation.

Actually, Cultist is not a village, you just get to maybe chain a few together, but everytime you do, you risk dead-drawing other actions (unless you already played a village).

Quote
(5) Sauna / Avanto

In a continuing theme, these cards do too much and are very swingy. They are early game trashing, and late game both village and draw. On many boards, if one player manages to collide Sauna + Silver early and the other doesn't, they can easily win the Sauna / Avanto split, trash much faster, and have a much stronger engine in the endgame. Sometimes there is better early trashing available and you can combat Sauna by not buying it yourself, so that it takes a long time to get to Avanto, but much of the time Sauna is the best or only trashing going, and both players are forced to contest it. The player who loses the split very often has no way to come back, since, as I said, this combination basically does everything.

Of course these are just my opinions, and I'm nothing special at Dominion, but based on my experience these cards really do make the game worse. And I don't just mean I have less fun---they make the games more frustrating, confusing, and especially high variance. I feel pretty strongly they should change or go.

Maybe it's just me, but I just plain like Sauna/Avanto (even having been on the bad side of the split a time or two).  It is very strong, and swingy, true, but it's fun to play (for me)

Rebuild, I agree with you, it could stand to go.
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Re: Cards I would ban / errata
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2017, 01:56:11 pm »
+1

Possession is the only card I would ban in an in-person tournament.  Not because it's swingy or evil, but because it slows down the game and you basically have to have a judge standing there every time someone's Possessed to check the various loopholes.  Possession online only for me, thanks.
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Re: Cards I would ban / errata
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2017, 02:33:43 pm »
+4

It's worth noting that errata is always bad.
Pedantry time: "errata are always bad". One of them is an erratum.
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Re: Cards I would ban / errata
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2017, 03:36:23 pm »
0

It's worth noting that errata is always bad.
Pedantry time: "errata are always bad". One of them is an erratum.

The sad part is I noticed that and chose not to correct it. I should have said, "having errata is always bad."
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Re: Cards I would ban / errata
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2017, 03:45:45 pm »
+1

No single card in Dominion can dominate "the meta" like what you see in CCGs.

I think the closest example in Dominion is a card that wasn't mentioned: Rebuild. Some large percentage (90%?) of Kingdoms with Rebuild in it will be Rebuild mirror games with only minor wrinkles.

Rebuild isn't that dominant (though I would still choose to ban it from my games because it makes the game less interesting for me). Here is some useful data compiled by a forum user (not me) on gain rates of cards based on the top 20 players on Goko/Making Fun (as of one snapshot from the Isotropish leaderbboard). I can't recall what the time range of the games played, but it was pre-Adventures. Rebuild is gained in only 67.57% of games it appears in.   https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13mQ1humtQbPLY9nbKscR65dV7hbGPdI3AQkNjMHZpeM/pubhtml?gid=495443102&single=true

Some of that may be players trying other strategies because they are more fun than Rebuild, but the vast increase in alt-VP from Empires and the further engine-friendliness with Adventures and 2nd editions of Base and Intrigue means that it's increasingly likely that kingdoms with Rebuild won't be simple Rebuild strategies.
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Re: Cards I would ban / errata
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2017, 03:52:18 pm »
+1

I would argue that "errata is always bad" is still correct, because you're using it as a collective noun.  Same thing with "data".  It's perfectly acceptable to say "our data is..." .
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MikeThicke

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Re: Cards I would ban / errata
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2017, 03:56:40 pm »
0

It's true that Dominion doesn't have the problem that other "deckbuilding" (for the pedants) games with one deck completely taking over the metagame. However, the same effect occurs when some cards appear in the kingdom: there is really only one way to build your deck, and so you either end up in a mirror or one player is at a severe disadvantage. While it it often the case in Dominion that there is a clearly best approach for a given board, the games are much less interesting when one card is dominant, especially if that card can create runaway or degenerate situations.

* MTG regularly bans cards from competitive play, and Hearthstone regularly erratas cards for power level.
* I disagree about the power level of IGG, but it at least isn't super high variance. It is the least problematic of the 5.
* In most decks with Cultist, it is functionally a village because Cultist is either your only action, or very close to it. The point is that it can perform too many functions all by itself---you don't need to think about how to balance your deck between its different needs. Just jam as many Cultists as you can and hope you hit them before your opponent.
* The same holds for Sauna/Avanto. Granted, Sauna/Avanto can be fun, but from a competitive standpoint it's problematic because of (a) high variance and (b) it removes any need to make hard choices in deck building.

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Re: Cards I would ban / errata
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2017, 03:58:56 pm »
0

I would argue that "errata is always bad" is still correct, because you're using it as a collective noun.  Same thing with "data".  It's perfectly acceptable to say "our data is..." .

Aren't you confusing collective nouns with plurals? "Birds are" but "a flock is". I can't stop you from using a plural as a collective noun, but the two are usually different words. Which would mean that "our data is" is technically incorrect. Of course, languages evolve, descriptivism vs prescriptivism, etc.
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Re: Cards I would ban / errata
« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2017, 04:04:40 pm »
+1

No single card in Dominion can dominate "the meta" like what you see in CCGs.

I think the closest example in Dominion is a card that wasn't mentioned: Rebuild. Some large percentage (90%?) of Kingdoms with Rebuild in it will be Rebuild mirror games with only minor wrinkles.

Rebuild isn't that dominant (though I would still choose to ban it from my games because it makes the game less interesting for me). Here is some useful data compiled by a forum user (not me) on gain rates of cards based on the top 20 players on Goko/Making Fun (as of one snapshot from the Isotropish leaderbboard). I can't recall what the time range of the games played, but it was pre-Adventures. Rebuild is gained in only 67.57% of games it appears in.   https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13mQ1humtQbPLY9nbKscR65dV7hbGPdI3AQkNjMHZpeM/pubhtml?gid=495443102&single=true

Some of that may be players trying other strategies because they are more fun than Rebuild, but the vast increase in alt-VP from Empires and the further engine-friendliness with Adventures and 2nd editions of Base and Intrigue means that it's increasingly likely that kingdoms with Rebuild won't be simple Rebuild strategies.

The new cards contribute of course, but I think that the increasing skill level of players is also a major factor and the number is probably way lower than that these days, I think only slightly higher than the percentage of non-engine boards in general. Also, very rarely but sometimes you can buy Rebuild in an engine, but that's so rare it can't have a huge impact on the number.
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Re: Cards I would ban / errata
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2017, 04:07:15 pm »
+5

It's worth noting that errata is always bad.
Pedantry time: "errata are always bad". One of them is an erratum.
Get thee back to the 17th century! Here in 2017 we do things differently.

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Quote
Errata is originally the plural of the singular Latin noun erratum. Like many such borrowed nouns ( agenda; candelabra), it came by the mid-17th century to be used as a singular noun, meaning “a list of errors or corrections to be made (in a book).” Despite objections by some to this singular use, it is common in standard English: The errata begins on page 237.When errata clearly means “errors,” it takes plural verbs and pronouns: Although errata were frequent in the first printing, most of them were corrected in subsequent printings.As a singular noun, errata has developed an English plural form erratas, which is rarely used.
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Re: Cards I would ban / errata
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2017, 04:15:29 pm »
0

It's true that Dominion doesn't have the problem that other "deckbuilding" (for the pedants) games with one deck completely taking over the metagame. However, the same effect occurs when some cards appear in the kingdom: there is really only one way to build your deck, and so you either end up in a mirror or one player is at a severe disadvantage. While it it often the case in Dominion that there is a clearly best approach for a given board, the games are much less interesting when one card is dominant, especially if that card can create runaway or degenerate situations.

None of those cards result in decks that are trivial to build. You can't actually "just jam as many Cultists as you can and hope you hit them before your opponent" or you're going to lose a lot.
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Re: Cards I would ban / errata
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2017, 04:35:29 pm »
0

It's true that Dominion doesn't have the problem that other "deckbuilding" (for the pedants) games with one deck completely taking over the metagame. However, the same effect occurs when some cards appear in the kingdom: there is really only one way to build your deck, and so you either end up in a mirror or one player is at a severe disadvantage. While it it often the case in Dominion that there is a clearly best approach for a given board, the games are much less interesting when one card is dominant, especially if that card can create runaway or degenerate situations.

None of those cards result in decks that are trivial to build. You can't actually "just jam as many Cultists as you can and hope you hit them before your opponent" or you're going to lose a lot.

Interested in a match where I must buy Cultist whenever possible and you cannot buy Cultist? I'm not sure how many I'd win, but I expect it would be a fair number.
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Re: Cards I would ban / errata
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2017, 04:37:34 pm »
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None of those cards result in decks that are trivial to build. You can't actually "just jam as many Cultists as you can and hope you hit them before your opponent" or you're going to lose a lot.

Interested in a match where I must buy Cultist whenever possible and you cannot buy Cultist? I'm not sure how many I'd win, but I expect it would be a fair number.

Unfortunately, overpowered though it is, winning the Cultist split 10-0 usually leads to game loss.
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