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Author Topic: Cartographer vs. Forum  (Read 690 times)

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werothegreat

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Cartographer vs. Forum
« on: September 24, 2017, 10:25:46 pm »
+3


Cartographer and Forum are both doing similar things - sifting through your deck.  In a very general sense, you could argue that Forum is better (not strictly better, just better), as it puts more cards from your deck into your hand, and allows discarding from both the new cards and old ones in your hand.  However, I think it's worth considering:

- Cartographer has a reach of 2 more cards
- Cartographer interacts with your deck
- Cartographer does not require discarding

The first point doesn't matter too much, but the second is quite important.  Cartographer can activate Mystics, Doctors, Vassals, Heralds, Wishing Wells...  Now granted, a few of those could be argued as not mattering too much since Forum just draws the cards you would have been guessing with Mystic or Wishing Well, but being able to trash non-blindly with Doctor, and being able to set up Vassal and Herald chains, is quite nice.  And if you don't have a source of +Buy, maybe you don't really want too much going into your hand, and would rather set up for next turn.

Anyway, I don't really know where I'm going with this, just something I was thinking of, particularly with a lot of talk during the last Qvist rankings about how Forum was a lot better than Cartographer, or that Forum even makes Cartographer obsolete.  I think Forum is probably a better card in a broad sense, but if you do have the particular interactions described above, I think Cartographer does still have value.
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KingPeter

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Re: Cartographer vs. Forum
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2017, 10:44:51 pm »
0

By themselves, I would say Forum is better, because it discards from your hand rather than your deck.  If the top three cards are Gold, Forum puts all of them into your hand.

Cartographer relies on combos, like you said, making it more viable in certain kinds of engines.
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dedicateddan

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Re: Cartographer vs. Forum
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2017, 12:07:29 am »
+1

Forum makes your hand good and Cartographer makes the top of your deck good.

If they're on the same board, I could see using Forums for filtering and Cartographer to stack each starting hand with Villages/Forums.
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Limetime

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Re: Cartographer vs. Forum
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2017, 12:31:33 am »
+1

Forum is generally better, the problem with both of these is they cost 5. 5 is a lot to pay for sifting in most games.
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Seprix

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Re: Cartographer vs. Forum
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2017, 12:32:40 am »
0

This is an article?

Forum is pretty much better, but Cartographer does have nice topdecking interactions.
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Re: Cartographer vs. Forum
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2017, 04:53:20 am »
+1

Forum is definitely better, because you get the benefit immediately. With Cartographer, you have to wait until you draw those cards before you get the benefit.

markusin

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Re: Cartographer vs. Forum
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2017, 07:04:34 am »
0

Forum still lets you discard stuff once you've drawn your deck as well. If you have cards that trash or set aside cards from your deck (Lookout, Doctor, Native Village, Archive, etc.) Then Forum has an Edge over Cartographer.

Cartographer is still nice to have though.
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Re: Cartographer vs. Forum
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2017, 12:56:41 pm »
0

I think they are both deceptively good. I actually rank Cartographer higher because of how effortlessly it combos, especially with some seriously strong cards (Cartographer/Scrying Pool is brutal).

Forum is definitely better, because you get the benefit immediately. With Cartographer, you have to wait until you draw those cards before you get the benefit.

True, but isn't a lot of Dominion about delayed gratification? Setting your next hand is a really strong effect, worth about .
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Cartographer vs. Forum
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2017, 02:56:32 pm »
+1

I think they are both deceptively good. I actually rank Cartographer higher because of how effortlessly it combos, especially with some seriously strong cards (Cartographer/Scrying Pool is brutal).

Forum is definitely better, because you get the benefit immediately. With Cartographer, you have to wait until you draw those cards before you get the benefit.

True, but isn't a lot of Dominion about delayed gratification? Setting your next hand is a really strong effect, worth about .

How did you arrive at that cost?

Not disagreeing, but genuinely curious.

The first comparison that comes to mind is Scouting Party. Granted, event costs aren't directly applicable to card costs, and Scouting Party is weaker, but it only costs . Is Cartographer's effect that much better?
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McGarnacle

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Re: Cartographer vs. Forum
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2017, 03:12:08 pm »
+2

I think they are both deceptively good. I actually rank Cartographer higher because of how effortlessly it combos, especially with some seriously strong cards (Cartographer/Scrying Pool is brutal).

Forum is definitely better, because you get the benefit immediately. With Cartographer, you have to wait until you draw those cards before you get the benefit.

True, but isn't a lot of Dominion about delayed gratification? Setting your next hand is a really strong effect, worth about .

How did you arrive at that cost?

Not disagreeing, but genuinely curious.

The first comparison that comes to mind is Scouting Party. Granted, event costs aren't directly applicable to card costs, and Scouting Party is weaker, but it only costs . Is Cartographer's effect that much better?

I figured since Cartographer is a cantrip with the effect, and a cantrip is basically free, the sorting should be worth or .

It is also quite a bit better then Scouting Party. Apart from the fact that it is more flexible, it sorts during your Action phase, making it invaluable for combo setup.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 03:13:42 pm by McGarnacle »
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Re: Cartographer vs. Forum
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2017, 04:51:25 pm »
+3

It isnt even CLOSE. Forum is WAY better. Forum is extremely good, and Cartographer is just average. Its seriously as dramatic of a comparison as, eg, Warehouse vs Cellar.

Cartographer does more inspection, but Forum actually puts those cards in your hand.
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Re: Cartographer vs. Forum
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2017, 07:26:46 pm »
0

Can someone clarify how these are comparable? I never buy them for the same reasons. Forum is more splashable since it's a free buy, but if Cartographer had the same clause I'd get it more often too.
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josh56

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Re: Cartographer vs. Forum
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2017, 09:20:50 pm »
0

Cartographer is a bit like Ironmonger: a good card in nearly every deck. But unlike Forum, which is a double Fugitive (and Fugitive, if it existed as normal card, would be a 4.5), it is not a powerhouse.
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Re: Cartographer vs. Forum
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2017, 03:11:25 pm »
0

Cartog is better in say pool decks or when knowing the next card(s) matter.
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Awaclus

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Re: Cartographer vs. Forum
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2017, 03:48:30 pm »
0

Cartographer is a bit like Ironmonger: a good card in nearly every deck. But unlike Forum, which is a double Fugitive (and Fugitive, if it existed as normal card, would be a 4.5), it is not a powerhouse.

Ironmonger is a powerhouse and I don't know where you got Fugitive = $4.5 from. Secret Passage is pretty much as good as Fugitive and it's not a particularly strong $4.

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Re: Cartographer vs. Forum
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2017, 03:51:24 pm »
0

Cartog is better in say pool decks or when knowing the next card(s) matter.

I would generally prefer a Forum in a Scrying Pool deck.  The most important support for Scrying Pool is cards that help you play a Scrying Pool near the beginning of each turn: either by guaranteeing that there is a Scrying Pool in your starting hand, or sifters that can reach deep in your deck to find the Scrying Pools.  Once you have a Scrying Pool, you shouldn't have any difficulties drawing your deck.  Forum is better in both counts.  If you overdraw, you can discard a couple Scrying Pools with a Forum, and use a cantrip to guarantee that one is in your next hand.  Seeding your next turn in the face of overdraw is a lot more cumbersome with Cartographer.  With regards to sifting, Forum searches 3 cards deep.  Cartographer searches 1 card in the worst case, and 5 in the best case (when you have another cantrip in hand already).  In practice, I find that Forum is the more reliable of the two.  Plus, Forum's +buy on buy is often handy with Scrying Pool's Potion cost.

There are very few circumstances where I would prefer Cartographer over Forum (maybe a Mystic-heavy deck).  Non-terminal +3 cards is really strong.  Ideally, you supplement Forum with cards that actually increase handsize, but in kingdoms without such cards, Forum is still super helpful at getting your 5 best cards into hand.  And the +buy on buy is usually a small bonus, but it can be huge on boards that are buy-limited.
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Gazbag

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Re: Cartographer vs. Forum
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2017, 05:40:56 pm »
+1

Cartographer is a bit like Ironmonger: a good card in nearly every deck. But unlike Forum, which is a double Fugitive (and Fugitive, if it existed as normal card, would be a 4.5), it is not a powerhouse.

Ironmonger is a powerhouse and I don't know where you got Fugitive = $4.5 from. Secret Passage is pretty much as good as Fugitive and it's not a particularly strong $4.

In the secret histories Donald mentions that Fugitive was a bit too good at $4, but obviously not good enough for $5. The big difference with Secret Passage is that Secret Passage doesn't increase cycling, where as Fugitive cycles by 1 (Relative to a cantrip or nothing). Which I assume made Fugitive too good as an opener or something.
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josh56

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Re: Cartographer vs. Forum
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2017, 08:20:59 pm »
+1

Cartographer is a bit like Ironmonger: a good card in nearly every deck. But unlike Forum, which is a double Fugitive (and Fugitive, if it existed as normal card, would be a 4.5), it is not a powerhouse.

Ironmonger is a powerhouse and I don't know where you got Fugitive = $4.5 from. Secret Passage is pretty much as good as Fugitive and it's not a particularly strong $4.

In the secret histories Donald mentions that Fugitive was a bit too good at $4, but obviously not good enough for $5.
This is what I was getting at with $4.5: too good for 4, too weak for 5.
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