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Author Topic: Adaptive cards  (Read 322 times)

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Gazbag

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Adaptive cards
« on: September 23, 2017, 07:24:25 pm »
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Hey! This is an idea for a new type of card I came up with when I was thinking about how Intrigue's themes can expanded upon. Adaptive cards!
Adaptive cards are cards that give you two options- but you have to choose the option you want at the start of the game and that is locked in for the duration of the game. Here's an example:

Harbour Town
$6 Action-Adaptive
+1 Card
+2 Actions
If you chose...
Import: You may gain a card costing up to $4.
Export: Discard any number of cards. +$1 per card discarded.

So after sorting out other setup rules and drawing opening hands starting with 1st player each player chooses either import or export and Harbour Town has that effect for that player. This could be tracked with double sided tokens showing which option each player chooses if necessary.
A couple of other ideas:

Aristocrat
$3 Action-Adaptive
Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck. If you chose...
Greed: Put all revealed Treasures into your hand.
Generosity: Put all revealed Actions into your hand.
Put the rest back in any order.

Automaton
$4 Action-Adaptive-Attack
+$2
If you chose...
Might: Each other player reveals their hand and gains a Curse if they have no duplicates.
Magic: Each other player reveals the top card of their deck and gains a Curse if it costs from $3-6.

Any and all critique and feedback is appreciated, whether it's about the idea itself or the power of individual cards. I also have Tabletop simulator and might be interested in testing fancards with other people if anyone is interested.

Cheers!
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Violet CLM

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Re: Adaptive cards
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2017, 12:11:43 am »
+2

I like this idea in general, but I'm not sure the two choices need to have their own individual names... if nothing else, keeping the names consistent across Adaptive cards (α/β?) would make it easier to design the double-sided tokens.

I also wonder whether making every player decide their choice for every card at the start of the game might cause too much startup time. Another option would be to have each player only decide their choice for any given card the first time they gain/play it. That also at least somewhat alleviates the last-player-advantage potential that could come with some cards.

ETA: This could also be the perfect use case for that split card design I made
« Last Edit: September 24, 2017, 12:18:59 am by Violet CLM »
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Gazbag

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Re: Adaptive cards
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2017, 06:06:53 am »
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I like this idea in general, but I'm not sure the two choices need to have their own individual names... if nothing else, keeping the names consistent across Adaptive cards (α/β?) would make it easier to design the double-sided tokens.

I also wonder whether making every player decide their choice for every card at the start of the game might cause too much startup time. Another option would be to have each player only decide their choice for any given card the first time they gain/play it. That also at least somewhat alleviates the last-player-advantage potential that could come with some cards.

ETA: This could also be the perfect use case for that split card design I made

First off thanks for the feedback! The idea of the names came from the Siege cards from MTG. I think it'll end up easier to track with the individual names for each choice because if say there are 3 Adaptive cards in the kingdom it'll just be quicker to glance over and check what options your opponent has gone for rather trying to see which card each A or B is mapped to, also the individual names are a bit cooler right? Although this is something I'd have to play with a bit more to get a better feel for what works best.

I think the AP at the start of the game is probably the biggest worry at the moment. I don't think it's a problem with just 1 in the kingdom but anything more than 2 could be a bit much, especially for new players. Another thing to test and try to figure out!

Hey that's a really sweet template! The only problem is that  I was going to do one with a variable on gain effect which wouldn't realy work with this. 

Finally, does anyone think Aristocrat is a bit weak? Maybe it could cost $2 or increase the price and the number of cards?
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Asper

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Re: Adaptive cards
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2017, 07:34:22 am »
+1

I also think that it would be more simple if the card effect was decided on when you gain it. In fact, what if you could alter the effect every time you gain one, changing the card mid-game? Here's an idea:

Quote
Cloister, 4$, Action
+1 Action
If your Cloister token is face up, trash up to two cards from your hand. Otherwise, +1 Card, +1 Action
---
When you gain this, either put your Cloister token face up or down (it starts face up).

My only issue with this is that something like this will usually behave a bit similar to a Seasons card (see my thread linked in my signature), because people will change it depending on game phase. On the other hand, it doesn't need a Season mat and has player-relative timing. That's really cool.

My reason to argue for the ability to change the card mid-game is mostly based on the assumption that it'll be hard to make effects that are so similar in power that different players will pick different abilities. And if they don't pick different abilities, it loses a big part of what makes it interesting. Of course you can't enforce different picks, either, as that'd be unfair. Maybe it's not as bad and people will pick different options often enough... You could help this by making the effects interact with each other, of course, e.g. by making one a trasher and one a Curser and similar things:

Quote
Rebel, 5$, Action - Attack - Looter
+3 Cards
If your Rebel token is face up: Each other player gains a Ruins.
Otherwise: Trash up to 3 cards from your hand.
---
At the start of the game, put your Rebel Token on any side.

Asper

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Re: Adaptive cards
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2017, 11:01:31 am »
+1

I thought about this a little more, and I think that even for a card like the one I suggested, having the decision each gain seems more strategic to me. At least tthat's how I'd do it.

Gazbag

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Re: Adaptive cards
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2017, 02:05:46 pm »
+1

Hi Asper you've clearly thought quite a bit about this!
The core idea of these cards was to add a new type of card that is flexible game by game but not play by play. I like your idea of the options being changeable when you gain the cards but these change the flexibility to turn by turn (I think they should be on buy to avoid mid-turn gain tracking nightmares) which is a new thing entirely.

Assuming the idea works as it is right now I feel like the effects need to be different enough that the decision is meaningful (Automaton probably fails here) and of a similar enough power level that you don't end up choosing the same option every game (Aristocrat probably fails here). I don't think having each player pick a different option is as important because in theory there will always be an optimum decision, similar to opening buys. Having one option counter the other probably just means one of the options never gets picked.

So having thought about this myself some more I  might try having the choices be tied to on gain abilities, such as a powerful card that either gives your opponents a Silver or gives you 2 Coppers when you gain it and you choose which at the start of the game and it's locked in for the whole game. Another idea is something like Border Village but it has a variable cost.
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Violet CLM

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Re: Adaptive cards
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2017, 03:46:57 pm »
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There's certainly room for on-gain/on-buy nonsense even within a single ruleset.

One thought I had, somewhat tangential to the "similar enough power level" point, is that this is a good way of sneaking in cards that only work in some kingdoms, by making sure their other half can work the rest of the time. If half a card cares deeply about Curses, for example, and there are no Cursers in the kingdom, you can just buy the other half instead.

Or a card where one half is suitable for the early game and the other is suitable for the later game.

Or give them deliberately different powers and different prices, so the player chooses whether to wait for the better version.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2017, 04:00:33 pm by Violet CLM »
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josh56

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Re: Adaptive cards
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2017, 05:42:57 pm »
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Concerning Gazbag's idea, quite often one option will simply better than the other in a particular Kingdom such that every player will do the same. So this will end up like adding an 11th pile and erasing the 10th or 11th pile before the game starts.

Concerning Asper's idea, I doubt that giving up the simplicity of a straightforward, Intrigue-ish choice for the sake of making the card slightly weaker via an on-gain change is worth the effort.

About Violet's ideas, they are the most innovative but could simply be implemented via a double pile (one randomizer implies 2 piles with 5 cards each). BTW, I am pretty sure that the Gold that provides +2VPs is overpowered at $8. If Plunder were available from the beginning it would probably already have to cost $6 or $7.
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Asper

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Re: Adaptive cards
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2017, 04:07:05 am »
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Concerning Gazbag's idea, quite often one option will simply better than the other in a particular Kingdom such that every player will do the same. So this will end up like adding an 11th pile and erasing the 10th or 11th pile before the game starts.

Concerning Asper's idea, I doubt that giving up the simplicity of a straightforward, Intrigue-ish choice for the sake of making the card slightly weaker via an on-gain change is worth the effort.

About Violet's ideas, they are the most innovative but could simply be implemented via a double pile (one randomizer implies 2 piles with 5 cards each). BTW, I am pretty sure that the Gold that provides +2VPs is overpowered at $8. If Plunder were available from the beginning it would probably already have to cost $6 or $7.

I don't get how my suggestion would make the card weaker. You mean stronger, right? Also, I don't see how adding a new trigger for a decision makes the card easier. Assume you put them out, start playing, forget to choose. This can't happen on gain/buy.

josh56

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Re: Adaptive cards
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2017, 05:26:32 am »
+1

I meant weaker relative to an on-play choice.
Take for e.g. your Cloister. It is most similar to Steward which is also a double-trasher early on and later an engine piece.
But you frequently trash late with Steward, i.e. after you used it a few times for the other options, or perhaps you use it early on for +$2 in order to hit 5.

So an on-play choice is more flexible whereas choosing the switching point when you gain another copy of Cloister is strategically interesting. But IMO the extra complexity via a token is not worth it to make cards which are weaker than cards which provide on-play choices.
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Asper

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Re: Adaptive cards
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2017, 05:42:03 am »
+1

I meant weaker relative to an on-play choice.
Take for e.g. your Cloister. It is most similar to Steward which is also a double-trasher early on and later an engine piece.
But you frequently trash late with Steward, i.e. after you used it a few times for the other options, or perhaps you use it early on for +$2 in order to hit 5.

So an on-play choice is more flexible whereas choosing the switching point when you gain another copy of Cloister is strategically interesting. But IMO the extra complexity via a token is not worth it to make cards which are weaker than cards which provide on-play choices.

Right, I see I didn't read close enough and didn't understand "Intrigue like choice" to mean the most obvious thing it could mean. My bad, sorry.
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