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[Mic Qsenoch]

Mmh. Note that the consensus doesn't seem to support this. On Qvist 2016 Shanty Town and Trade Route were respectively ranked 31st and 41st out of the 46 3-cost cards (plus 3 dropouts).
That puts them respectively in the 33rd and 11th percentile.

It just doesn't make any sense to argue about a card's strength by where it places in a ranking, it says essentially nothing about how good a card is in an absolute sense.

FWIW I consider Trade Route clearly weak, and Shanty town not weak at all, but there's a lower bound on how weak Trade Route can be just because of boards where trashing is 100% mandatory and Trade Route is the only trasher.

[Gazbag]

I think the idea of blanket rankings for cards is pretty distracting and not really relevant to an actual game of dominion. If Shanty Town is the only village on a board then it is an S rank card- in the context of that board. Perhaps a way to do it would be to put cards into categories and rank them within those categories. E.g. Farming village would be in the village and sifter categories. It would be like an average C as a village and an F as a crummy sifter.

[Accatitippi]

Mmh. Note that the consensus doesn't seem to support this. On Qvist 2016 Shanty Town and Trade Route were respectively ranked 31st and 41st out of the 46 3-cost cards (plus 3 dropouts).
That puts them respectively in the 33rd and 11th percentile.

It just doesn't make any sense to argue about a card's strength by where it places in a ranking, it says essentially nothing about how good a card is in an absolute sense.

I was just objecting to Awaclus' comparison, which made it sound like TR and ST are part of some sort of "elite" group of dominion cards. They are below average - otherwise we wouldn't be making this discussion.
That said, they are pretty good, because dominion cards are on average good.

But they are below average, so the comparison didn't hold.


Gazbag, I'd also like to rank/rate cards by category. It would be cute. I mean, the question "how does Moneylender compare with Sentry?" is more interesting than "how does Sentry compare with Courtier", because they are totally unrelated cards.

[Awaclus]

I was just objecting to Awaclus' comparison, which made it sound like TR and ST are part of some sort of "elite" group of dominion cards. They are below average - otherwise we wouldn't be making this discussion.

They aren't below average, people just compare them to other splitters and other trashers and that's why they seem weaker than they really are. You won't be buying Trade Route on boards where Catapult is present, but that's just because it fills a similar role in a redundant way and it's the weaker of the two, but Trade Route still makes an enormous impact on an engine board where it's the only trashing (quite possibly making it an engine board if it wouldn't have been one otherwise). The same can be said about Shanty Town except you might still buy one or two even when better options are available due to its low cost and the fact that it's actually a pretty strong card when you have lots of other splitters in your deck but only one ST — generally, you won't be buying half a pile of STs, but when you have to, you're still extremely happy to do so instead of going for a non-engine strategy.

[Shvegait]

I was just objecting to Awaclus' comparison, which made it sound like TR and ST are part of some sort of "elite" group of dominion cards. They are below average - otherwise we wouldn't be making this discussion.

They aren't below average, people just compare them to other splitters and other trashers and that's why they seem weaker than they really are.

There's still value in comparing trashers with each other, because there are many boards with 2 or more trashers. For newer players, there is value in knowing which options are stronger than others. If Forager and Trade Route are both available, it doesn't make sense to call Trade Route a power card. Since Trade Route loses on most of these comparisons, it's called below average.

There's also a point where if your engine has to be made up of the weakest pieces of each class, say... Trade Route as the only trasher, Nobles as the only village... even if the payload is pretty good, a Big Money type strategy might just be faster. So there is still some value in considering how good an engine piece is, even if it's the only one available and mandatory if the engine is the way to go. But note that this is a bit of circular reasoning, because determining that engine is the way to go depends in part on the engine pieces available.

[Accatitippi]

I was just objecting to Awaclus' comparison, which made it sound like TR and ST are part of some sort of "elite" group of dominion cards. They are below average - otherwise we wouldn't be making this discussion.

They aren't below average, people just compare them to other splitters and other trashers and that's why they seem weaker than they really are. You won't be buying Trade Route on boards where Catapult is present, but that's just because it fills a similar role in a redundant way and it's the weaker of the two, but Trade Route still makes an enormous impact on an engine board where it's the only trashing (quite possibly making it an engine board if it wouldn't have been one otherwise). The same can be said about Shanty Town except you might still buy one or two even when better options are available due to its low cost and the fact that it's actually a pretty strong card when you have lots of other splitters in your deck but only one ST — generally, you won't be buying half a pile of STs, but when you have to, you're still extremely happy to do so instead of going for a non-engine strategy.

Again, I'm not arguing that they are bad - but according to the Qvist rankings, they are below average. Then in your opinion maybe the ranking should be different, but in that case I'd be interested in hearing what are the 23 3$ers that you esteem worse than Trade Route.

[Awaclus]

in that case I'd be interested in hearing what are the 23 3$ers that you esteem worse than Trade Route.

Chancellor, Great Hall, Woodcutter, Fortune teller, Masterpiece, Sage, Workshop, Banquet, Caravan Guard, Tunnel, Storeroom, Oasis, Oracle, Smugglers, Farmer's Market, Shanty Town, Chariot Race, Gladiator (not counting Fortune), Wishing Well, Guide, Expedition, Enchantress, Market Square, Warehouse are the cards I'd say are weaker, in the order from bottom to top. I made this list by going to Qvist's 2016 rankings, starting from the bottom, and for each card, asking the question "is this weaker than Trade Route?". I didn't keep track of how many I already had and I didn't actively try to get to 23. It's funny how close it turned out to be regardless (in case you don't want to count them yourself, I got 24). I briefly considered including Develop but decided against it and I'm very confident that my decision was correct, and I briefly considered skipping Scheme, decided against it, not super confident in that decision.

It's interesting that the only cards I skipped were other trashers (and obviously TR itself).

What's also noteworthy is that there are a lot of $3 cards that are extremely strong, because there are so many trashers there. If I repeated this with all the cards in Dominion, I'm pretty sure Trade Route would end up in a higher percentile.

If Forager and Trade Route are both available, it doesn't make sense to call Trade Route a power card. Since Trade Route loses on most of these comparisons, it's called below average.

Exactly, and I'm saying it shouldn't be the case that it's called below average just because it loses on most of those comparisons.

[Seprix]

in that case I'd be interested in hearing what are the 23 3$ers that you esteem worse than Trade Route.

Chancellor, Great Hall, Woodcutter, Fortune teller, Masterpiece, Sage, Workshop, Banquet, Caravan Guard, Tunnel, Storeroom, Oasis, Oracle, Smugglers, Farmer's Market, Shanty Town, Chariot Race, Gladiator (not counting Fortune), Wishing Well, Guide, Expedition, Enchantress, Market Square, Warehouse ... and I briefly considered skipping Scheme ...

Like, does this confirm Awaclus is a troll? This is maybe the silliest thing I've read from Awaclus, ever.



No player this high in the Leaderboard rankings can possibly think this.

[Awaclus]

in that case I'd be interested in hearing what are the 23 3$ers that you esteem worse than Trade Route.

Chancellor, Great Hall, Woodcutter, Fortune teller, Masterpiece, Sage, Workshop, Banquet, Caravan Guard, Tunnel, Storeroom, Oasis, Oracle, Smugglers, Farmer's Market, Shanty Town, Chariot Race, Gladiator (not counting Fortune), Wishing Well, Guide, Expedition, Enchantress, Market Square, Warehouse ... and I briefly considered skipping Scheme ...

Like, does this confirm Awaclus is a troll? This is maybe the silliest thing I've read from Awaclus, ever.



No player this high in the Leaderboard rankings can possibly think this.

So how is the effect of any of those bolded cards, other than Scheme, better than removing a junk card from your deck?

Sorry for my rating, it's usually 10-20 ranks higher.

[Donald X.]

If Forager and Trade Route are both available, it doesn't make sense to call Trade Route a power card. Since Trade Route loses on most of these comparisons, it's called below average.

Exactly, and I'm saying it shouldn't be the case that it's called below average just because it loses on most of those comparisons.

However if one or another of those comparisons tends to appear in any game with Trade Route, then of course it's a below average card. It's moot if there's a big line of cards it would be better than, if only, when the "if only" part rarely comes true for you. You can factor in "sometimes it's the only trasher," rate that highly, and still come up with below-average. I haven't done this math but obv. that's what people are responding to; they remember all those games where Trade Route was a dud, and know better than to think "in some technical sense it's great though."

[crj]

They are below average - otherwise we wouldn't be making this discussion.
That said, they are pretty good, because dominion cards are on average good.

Hmm.

What do you mean by "good", if by your definition the majority of Dominion cards are good? Are you comparing with the six of spades and get out of jail free?

[Accatitippi]

They are below average - otherwise we wouldn't be making this discussion.
That said, they are pretty good, because dominion cards are on average good.

Hmm.

What do you mean by "good", if by your definition the majority of Dominion cards are good? Are you comparing with the six of spades and get out of jail free?

They do their thing in an efficient way, and their thing is useful.

I mean, the majority of cards is good, but we still have duds to remind us about how good the average cards are. All the removed cards, harvest, and transmute are the worst offenders, but there are several meh cards that are not as terrible as those, but they are a few.
Between harvest and rebuild we enjoy a wide range of power levels, but the cards are not uniformly distributed in the range.

[Jack Rudd]

They are below average - otherwise we wouldn't be making this discussion.
That said, they are pretty good, because dominion cards are on average good.

Hmm.

What do you mean by "good", if by your definition the majority of Dominion cards are good? Are you comparing with the six of spades and get out of jail free?

They're being compared with William H. Harrison. Oh no, sorry, wrong topic.

They're being compared with nothing. (Seriously. Nothing is always a valid option for a buy in Dominion.) Also, and this is particularly important for $3 cards in Dominion, they're being compared with Silver.

[FemurLemur]

I was just objecting to Awaclus' comparison, which made it sound like TR and ST are part of some sort of "elite" group of dominion cards. They are below average - otherwise we wouldn't be making this discussion.

They aren't below average, people just compare them to other splitters and other Trashers and that's why they seem weaker than they really are

That's because it's an important comparison to make. By my slapdash estimate, there are 53 Trashers for thinning your starting deck with*, including Loan. That would mean that in 87.63% of games with Loan, there will be another Trasher in the Kingdom. If we're to assume that Loan is the weakest Trasher, that leaves only 12.37% of games where Loan is out and I actually want it. So I don't think it's helpful to tell a new player there are no weak Trashers. What you're really trying to tell them is: "Trashing as a mechanic is very powerful", which is different. Even though there are hypothetical Kingdoms where I want Loan, the majority of the time that it's out, I don't want it.

In response to everyone else saying Moneylender is solid: maybe I'm wrong then. I just always thought there were many better terminal Trashers. Thinning coppers is sweet, and the cash boost gives a nice head start. But it becomes a dead card soon (and if I'm gonna trash it, why don't I just open with that other Trasher instead?), it only defends against one specific subset of Junking attacks, and I'd rather be trashing my Estates than my Coppers. If it's the only Trasher, sure, I want it. But even in Base-Only Moneylender games, 60% of the time I'm gonna see Sentry and/or Chapel as well.


*Excludes Dame Anna (since you may have to dig through some Knights to get to her, whereas you can open Loan on the first shuffle), Cards that only trash themselves/cards from supply/cards as they're being gained (Watchtower, Gladiator, Small Castle, Engineer), and Events. Like I said, it was a quick slapdash tally. I could have missed some Trashers or counted some that don't actually work on starting Coppers/Estates.

[Jack Rudd]

There are some trashers that don't work on starting Estates/Coppers. More importantly, there are trash-for-benefit cards that work best on things that aren't your starting cards. Remodel/Loan is a solid opening for that reason; Remodel is not a good way to trash Coppers, but it's an excellent way to trash Loans that have outlived their usefulness.

[Awaclus]

That's because it's an important comparison to make. By my slapdash estimate, there are 53 Trashers for thinning your starting deck with*, including Loan. That would mean that in 87.63% of games with Loan, there will be another Trasher in the Kingdom. If we're to assume that Loan is the weakest Trasher, that leaves only 12.37% of games where Loan is out and I actually want it. So I don't think it's helpful to tell a new player there are no weak Trashers. What you're really trying to tell them is: "Trashing as a mechanic is very powerful", which is different. Even though there are hypothetical Kingdoms where I want Loan, the majority of the time that it's out, I don't want it.

That would apply to Trade Route, but Loan is one of the stronger trashers in the game. Most of the time when you have Loan and another trasher in the kingdom, you get both.

Even though it does apply to Trade Route, it doesn't mean it's a weak card. If Forager is present, you're not going to buy Trade Route, but if you did buy Trade Route instead of your second Forager, you wouldn't be that far behind an opponent who just got two Foragers, and you would be quite far ahead an opponent who got something that doesn't trash instead of a second Forager in most kingdoms. In other words, if you swindle your opponent's Forager while he still wants to keep the Forager in his deck, you shouldn't give him a Trade Route, you should give a Silver or something.

[FemurLemur]

There are some trashers that don't work on starting Estates/Coppers.

Which I excluded from my comparison for not being comparable to Loan. Did you read the footnote?

It sounds like you're arguing that this is a point in Loan's favor or something. By excluding things like Watchtower, I made Loan look more favorable in the results. If you want, I can throw Watchtower and those other cards in to make Loan look even crappier than I already made it look.

More importantly, there are trash-for-benefit cards that work best on things that aren't your starting cards.

Which is why I said "If we're to assume that Loan is the weakest Trasher". Arguing that it's not sounds like denying the antecedent to me. This discussion is predicated on Awaclus' suggestion that: "people just compare them to other splitters and other Trashers and that's why they seem weaker than they really are".

Remodel/Loan is a solid opening for that reason; Remodel is not a good way to trash Coppers, but it's an excellent way to trash Loans that have outlived their usefulness.

Feel free to list all possible edge cases of Loan/X, and all of the edge cases to those edge cases (for instance, I'll still prefer a single Chapel over a Remodel/Loan), and I'll update the percentages. I think you'll find that it's not going to boost Loan's favorable % very well. I don't think the general consensus is that there are a lot of Combos of Loan/X that make it a good opener.

[FemurLemur]

Most of the time when you have Loan and another trasher in the kingdom, you get both.

I promise you, I don't. Most other Trashers can Trash 1 copper per shuffle, which is all Loan does for me, and I don't face the same high risk of them failing on other treasures the more my number of coppers decrease. A Trade Route in hand is far more likely to trash that last Copper (since I'll have 4 other cards in hand) than a Loan in hand milling through a deck of 3-4 Silvers and one final Copper. To make Loan work fully, I'm going to need Loan, another Trasher, and some non-terminal money from Action Cards (or +Card, or some other form of control that makes this strategy a house of cards).

Even though it does apply to Trade Route, it doesn't mean it's a weak card. If Forager is present, you're not going to buy Trade Route, but if you did buy Trade Route instead of your second Forager, you wouldn't be that far behind an opponent who just got two Foragers, and you would be quite far ahead an opponent who got something that doesn't trash instead of a second Forager in most kingdoms.

What an awfully contrived scenario. Trade Route will put me quite far ahead IF my opponent also buys something stupid on the 2nd buy? Well man, in that case, Pearl Diver is an amazing 2nd buy if your opponent buys a Curse on their 2nd buy. In fact, I'd say you'd be really far ahead in that case!

What exactly is your point? If I buy a better card than Trade Route first, Trade Route isn't going to sting quite so badly? That's a point in the other card's favor, not in Trade Route's favor. You admit yourself, you would not open with a Trade Route, and even if you buy a Trade Route over the 2nd Forager, that can only be worse or equal to opening with 2 Foragers. You can't just brush it off with "You won't be that far behind". You'll still be behind. It's still a worse decision to buy Trade Route than almost any other Trasher, and it's still most likely that any other Trasher will be there.

[markusin]

I was just objecting to Awaclus' comparison, which made it sound like TR and ST are part of some sort of "elite" group of dominion cards. They are below average - otherwise we wouldn't be making this discussion.

They aren't below average, people just compare them to other splitters and other Trashers and that's why they seem weaker than they really are

That's because it's an important comparison to make. By my slapdash estimate, there are 53 Trashers for thinning your starting deck with*, including Loan. That would mean that in 87.63% of games with Loan, there will be another Trasher in the Kingdom. If we're to assume that Loan is the weakest Trasher, that leaves only 12.37% of games where Loan is out and I actually want it. So I don't think it's helpful to tell a new player there are no weak Trashers. What you're really trying to tell them is: "Trashing as a mechanic is very powerful", which is different. Even though there are hypothetical Kingdoms where I want Loan, the majority of the time that it's out, I don't want it.

In response to everyone else saying Moneylender is solid: maybe I'm wrong then. I just always thought there were many better terminal Trashers. Thinning coppers is sweet, and the cash boost gives a nice head start. But it becomes a dead card soon (and if I'm gonna trash it, why don't I just open with that other Trasher instead?), it only defends against one specific subset of Junking attacks, and I'd rather be trashing my Estates than my Coppers. If it's the only Trasher, sure, I want it. But even in Base-Only Moneylender games, 60% of the time I'm gonna see Sentry and/or Chapel as well.

I think you still likely want Moneylender in a Sentry game to complement your Sentry, maybe even opening with Moneylender to help you hit $5 as it's functionally a Silver. Moneylender will speed up your trashing and clear out the straggling Coppers that Sentry has trouble finding.

[FemurLemur]

I was just objecting to Awaclus' comparison, which made it sound like TR and ST are part of some sort of "elite" group of dominion cards. They are below average - otherwise we wouldn't be making this discussion.

They aren't below average, people just compare them to other splitters and other Trashers and that's why they seem weaker than they really are

That's because it's an important comparison to make. By my slapdash estimate, there are 53 Trashers for thinning your starting deck with*, including Loan. That would mean that in 87.63% of games with Loan, there will be another Trasher in the Kingdom. If we're to assume that Loan is the weakest Trasher, that leaves only 12.37% of games where Loan is out and I actually want it. So I don't think it's helpful to tell a new player there are no weak Trashers. What you're really trying to tell them is: "Trashing as a mechanic is very powerful", which is different. Even though there are hypothetical Kingdoms where I want Loan, the majority of the time that it's out, I don't want it.

In response to everyone else saying Moneylender is solid: maybe I'm wrong then. I just always thought there were many better terminal Trashers. Thinning coppers is sweet, and the cash boost gives a nice head start. But it becomes a dead card soon (and if I'm gonna trash it, why don't I just open with that other Trasher instead?), it only defends against one specific subset of Junking attacks, and I'd rather be trashing my Estates than my Coppers. If it's the only Trasher, sure, I want it. But even in Base-Only Moneylender games, 60% of the time I'm gonna see Sentry and/or Chapel as well.

I think you still likely want Moneylender in a Sentry game to complement your Sentry, maybe even opening with Moneylender to help you hit $5 as it's functionally a Silver. Moneylender will speed up your trashing and clear out the straggling Coppers that Sentry has trouble finding.

Fair enough. I'll test it sometime. I don't doubt that Moneylender/Sentry can work well, and I'd do it if that's what I can afford first. But do you think that, on a turn you get $5, you'd really get a Moneylender over a 2nd Sentry?

[Awaclus]

Most of the time when you have Loan and another trasher in the kingdom, you get both.

I promise you, I don't. Most other Trashers can Trash 1 copper per shuffle, which is all Loan does for me, and I don't face the same high risk of them failing on other treasures the more my number of coppers decrease. A Trade Route in hand is far more likely to trash that last Copper (since I'll have 4 other cards in hand) than a Loan in hand milling through a deck of 3-4 Silvers and one final Copper. To make Loan work fully, I'm going to need Loan, another Trasher, and some non-terminal money from Action Cards (or +Card, or some other form of control that makes this strategy a house of cards).

Most other trashers don't also give you a Peddler effect in addition to trashing 1 Copper per shuffle. You don't face a high risk of Loans failing on other Treasures if you don't have many other Treasures and you almost certainly shouldn't have 3-4 Silvers even if Loan wasn't in the kingdom.

What an awfully contrived scenario. Trade Route will put me quite far ahead IF my opponent also buys something stupid on the 2nd buy? Well man, in that case, Pearl Diver is an amazing 2nd buy if your opponent buys a Curse on their 2nd buy. In fact, I'd say you'd be really far ahead in that case!

It's not supposed to demonstrate a scenario that happens in the game. It demonstrates how strong the effect of Trade Route is, even if you never buy it.

[FemurLemur]

Most of the time when you have Loan and another trasher in the kingdom, you get both.

I promise you, I don't. Most other Trashers can Trash 1 copper per shuffle, which is all Loan does for me, and I don't face the same high risk of them failing on other treasures the more my number of coppers decrease. A Trade Route in hand is far more likely to trash that last Copper (since I'll have 4 other cards in hand) than a Loan in hand milling through a deck of 3-4 Silvers and one final Copper. To make Loan work fully, I'm going to need Loan, another Trasher, and some non-terminal money from Action Cards (or +Card, or some other form of control that makes this strategy a house of cards).

You don't face a high risk of Loans failing on other Treasures if you don't have many other Treasures

Which is why I said you're going to need non-terminal money from Actions as well, which you left out when you said that Loan is good with other Trashers. You aren't just going to do Loan/Remodel by themselves. It relies on either non-terminal money or terminal money with reliable Villages or Throne Rooms. So this scenario in which Loan is a rock star keeps getting more and more specific the more we talk about it. What you're telling me sounds a lot like saying that your entire strategy gets hijacked in the attempt to make Loan not be really bad.

Compare that to just buying the other Trasher by itself, which will probably not need all of these moving pieces to make it feasible.

and you almost certainly shouldn't have 3-4 Silvers even if Loan wasn't in the kingdom.

My point of course being that the more treasures you have, the more crap Loan is for your deck. As opposed to most other Trashers which are going to keep working for you without discriminating over whether you get your money from treasures or actions.

What an awfully contrived scenario. Trade Route will put me quite far ahead IF my opponent also buys something stupid on the 2nd buy? Well man, in that case, Pearl Diver is an amazing 2nd buy if your opponent buys a Curse on their 2nd buy. In fact, I'd say you'd be really far ahead in that case!

It's not supposed to demonstrate a scenario that happens in the game. It demonstrates how strong the effect of Trade Route is, even if you never buy it.

Same with mine. I'm not saying your opponent would actually buy a Curse on turn 2, just that it demonstrates how strong the effect of a Pearl Diver is, even if you never buy it. Pearl Diver is like an 8 or 9 out of 10 by virtue of being a Cantrip and not being as bad as buying Curse on Turn 2.



Go ahead and take the last word, and then please stop responding to me. As I've explained once before when asking you to not talk with me, I don't think you're willing to be wrong about anything, and I don't think debate between the two of us will be fruitful.

[Awaclus]

Which is why I said you're going to need non-terminal money from Actions as well, which you left out when you said that Loan is good with other Trashers. You aren't just going to do Loan/Remodel by themselves. It relies on either non-terminal money or terminal money with reliable Villages or Throne Rooms. So this scenario in which Loan is a rock star keeps getting more and more specific the more we talk about it. What you're telling me sounds a lot like saying that your entire strategy gets hijacked in the attempt to make Loan not be really bad.

Compare that to just buying the other Trasher by itself, which will probably not need all of these moving pieces to make it feasible.

I'm not saying that you need Remodel to make Loan good. I'm saying that Loan/Loan and Loan/Silver are perfectly good openings if there are no Actions you want in the opening.

My point of course being that the more treasures you have, the more crap Loan is for your deck. As opposed to most other Trashers which are going to keep working for you without discriminating over whether you get your money from treasures or actions.

That's something you have to take into account when playing with Loan, not a reason to skip Loan.

Same with mine. I'm not saying your opponent would actually buy a Curse on turn 2, just that it demonstrates how strong the effect of a Pearl Diver is, even if you never buy it. Pearl Diver is like an 8 or 9 out of 10 by virtue of being a Cantrip and not being as bad as buying Curse on Turn 2.

Unlike Trade Route, Pearl Diver is not almost as good as Forager on turn 2. That analogy doesn't work.

Go ahead and take the last word, and then please stop responding to me. As I've explained once before when asking you to not talk with me, I don't think you're willing to be wrong about anything, and I don't think debate between the two of us will be fruitful.

It is true that I don't particularly enjoy being wrong. That's why I usually put a lot of effort into not being wrong, change my views when my old views turn out to be wrong, and shut up instead of talking out of my ass when I think there's a considerable chance I might be wrong.

[markusin]

I was just objecting to Awaclus' comparison, which made it sound like TR and ST are part of some sort of "elite" group of dominion cards. They are below average - otherwise we wouldn't be making this discussion.

They aren't below average, people just compare them to other splitters and other Trashers and that's why they seem weaker than they really are

That's because it's an important comparison to make. By my slapdash estimate, there are 53 Trashers for thinning your starting deck with*, including Loan. That would mean that in 87.63% of games with Loan, there will be another Trasher in the Kingdom. If we're to assume that Loan is the weakest Trasher, that leaves only 12.37% of games where Loan is out and I actually want it. So I don't think it's helpful to tell a new player there are no weak Trashers. What you're really trying to tell them is: "Trashing as a mechanic is very powerful", which is different. Even though there are hypothetical Kingdoms where I want Loan, the majority of the time that it's out, I don't want it.

In response to everyone else saying Moneylender is solid: maybe I'm wrong then. I just always thought there were many better terminal Trashers. Thinning coppers is sweet, and the cash boost gives a nice head start. But it becomes a dead card soon (and if I'm gonna trash it, why don't I just open with that other Trasher instead?), it only defends against one specific subset of Junking attacks, and I'd rather be trashing my Estates than my Coppers. If it's the only Trasher, sure, I want it. But even in Base-Only Moneylender games, 60% of the time I'm gonna see Sentry and/or Chapel as well.

I think you still likely want Moneylender in a Sentry game to complement your Sentry, maybe even opening with Moneylender to help you hit $5 as it's functionally a Silver. Moneylender will speed up your trashing and clear out the straggling Coppers that Sentry has trouble finding.

Fair enough. I'll test it sometime. I don't doubt that Moneylender/Sentry can work well, and I'd do it if that's what I can afford first. But do you think that, on a turn you get $5, you'd really get a Moneylender over a 2nd Sentry?

I did get Sentry/Moneylender instead of Sentry/Sentry in a game I played recently. I was going for a Minion stack, and I absolutely had to trash everything I could to get the deck where I wanted it to be. Native Village was on the board too, so I wanted to increase the chance of using Sentry to topdeck Province to set aside on the Native Village mat.

Admittedly, I was getting Minion over a second Sentry there.

[FemurLemur]

I was just objecting to Awaclus' comparison, which made it sound like TR and ST are part of some sort of "elite" group of dominion cards. They are below average - otherwise we wouldn't be making this discussion.

They aren't below average, people just compare them to other splitters and other Trashers and that's why they seem weaker than they really are

That's because it's an important comparison to make. By my slapdash estimate, there are 53 Trashers for thinning your starting deck with*, including Loan. That would mean that in 87.63% of games with Loan, there will be another Trasher in the Kingdom. If we're to assume that Loan is the weakest Trasher, that leaves only 12.37% of games where Loan is out and I actually want it. So I don't think it's helpful to tell a new player there are no weak Trashers. What you're really trying to tell them is: "Trashing as a mechanic is very powerful", which is different. Even though there are hypothetical Kingdoms where I want Loan, the majority of the time that it's out, I don't want it.

In response to everyone else saying Moneylender is solid: maybe I'm wrong then. I just always thought there were many better terminal Trashers. Thinning coppers is sweet, and the cash boost gives a nice head start. But it becomes a dead card soon (and if I'm gonna trash it, why don't I just open with that other Trasher instead?), it only defends against one specific subset of Junking attacks, and I'd rather be trashing my Estates than my Coppers. If it's the only Trasher, sure, I want it. But even in Base-Only Moneylender games, 60% of the time I'm gonna see Sentry and/or Chapel as well.

I think you still likely want Moneylender in a Sentry game to complement your Sentry, maybe even opening with Moneylender to help you hit $5 as it's functionally a Silver. Moneylender will speed up your trashing and clear out the straggling Coppers that Sentry has trouble finding.

Fair enough. I'll test it sometime. I don't doubt that Moneylender/Sentry can work well, and I'd do it if that's what I can afford first. But do you think that, on a turn you get $5, you'd really get a Moneylender over a 2nd Sentry?

I did get Sentry/Moneylender instead of Sentry/Sentry in a game I played recently. I was going for a Minion stack, and I absolutely had to trash everything I could to get the deck where I wanted it to be. Native Village was on the board too, so I wanted to increase the chance of using Sentry to topdeck Province to set aside on the Native Village mat.

Admittedly, I was getting Minion over a second Sentry there.

Cool! Thanks for the idea!