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Author Topic: RMM47: Rewind Mafia 2 (Game over!)  (Read 9567 times)

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iguanaiguana

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Re: RMM47: Rewind Mafia 2 (Day 1)
« Reply #250 on: November 14, 2017, 11:39:10 am »

I think Chairs looks towny.

Awaclus, when you bid for slot 3 to try to push the miller T-shirt onto scum, did it occur to you that you could very easily just be pushing the miller T-shirt onto town?
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Re: RMM47: Rewind Mafia 2 (Day 1)
« Reply #251 on: November 14, 2017, 11:41:23 am »

I'm very surprised that Datswan is suspicious of me for pushing for a slot 3 claim because he was scum with me in Lost mafia and personally watched with me as scum how Teproc wrecked our entire game by pushing us to claim poisoner D1. To him of all people, the protown motives for pushing for the scummiest slot in the game to be claimed should have been clear.
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Galzria

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Re: RMM47: Rewind Mafia 2 (Day 1)
« Reply #252 on: November 14, 2017, 11:45:48 am »

Let's not lynch Awaclus today.

Ok. Can we lynch PPS instead? vote: PPS.

I completely disagree with Ash. Faust confirmed nothing except to say that -IF PPS were town, he would be telling the truth.-. The IF in that statement is vital, but also very much present. Ash acts like it is not. What Faust "confirmed" was publicly available, albeit ambiguous, information. In his examples, who blocked who - despite claims - is not public information. You could reasonably ask the mod "If I Doctored Robz, would he have lived", and I would expect the mod to answer "A Doctor shields a player from a single night kill action". This neither confirms nor denies my claim that I Doctored Robz, it simply confirms the mechanic of Doctor.

Now, regarding PPS, he received an item. Either it was or was not destroyed upon arrival. If PPS is town, it's possible, albeit unlikely, that Faust made no notes whatsoever about it being destroyed. And it's possible, albeit unlikely, that PPS looked to see that he received the item, but didn't notice it's destroyed nature. What IS likely is that he received it, in tact, and then realized that as town that should not be the case, so he modified the claim.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.


Blitz:
TOWN Wins: ZM11, ZM13
TOWN Losses: ZM3, ZM5, ZM6, ZM8, ZM9, ZM10
SCUM Wins: ZM1
SCUM Losses: ZM4

Total Wins: 3
Total Losses: 7

Normal Games:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Traitor)

Total Wins: 13
Total Losses: 10

Other:
TOWN Wins: DM1, BM4, BM4, BM5, BM8, BM13, DoM1, OZ2, RM45
TOWN Losses: BM1, BM2, BM3, BM6, BM11, RM3, RM4
SCUM Wins: DM3, BM7, RM1, RM2
SCUM Losses: BM9, OZ1

Total Wins: 13
Total Losses: 9

iguanaiguana

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Re: RMM47: Rewind Mafia 2 (Day 1)
« Reply #253 on: November 14, 2017, 11:48:59 am »

Galzria, since you aren't my scumpartner this game, I accept that you said what I was trying to say, but better.
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SpaceAnemone

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Re: RMM47: Rewind Mafia 2 (Day 1)
« Reply #254 on: November 14, 2017, 11:59:08 am »

If we lynch anyone for misreading the setup I think it should be Awaclus with his Miller thing

I don't think it's hard to interpret the original text in multiple ways.

In fact, before we do any more claiming, we ought to poll everyone on how they interpreted faust's statement of the item-winning and penalty item rules [/i]at the time they made their bid[/i]. Getting that info out there before any claim orders or claim facts get decided will help to remove wiggle-room on scum's claims.

For instance, if there are people A, B, and C, with rank numbers 1, 2, and 3 respectively, and then all bid on a single slot that contains a good item and a penalty item, who did you think would get each thing?

I think Awaclus is saying he thought
A: penalty item
B: good item
C: nothing
-- that's pretty much how I read it, too, though I was VLA at the weekend on a trip to London for all of Sunday, so I didn't invest a lot of though time in the pre-game bidding.

If I'd thought more about it, I'd have realises that my initial interpretation disadvantages people with a low-numbered ranking number rather too much. OTOH, giving the penalty item to the person with the largest rank number (I'd have described those people as low-ranked, but this is where the confusion stems from!) also forces people who've ranked poorly to go for slots without penalty items, which doesn't seem to encourage diversity as much as I thought faust's twist to the setup was designed to do, given that a lot of slots had penalty items...

PPE ~6.
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faust

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Re: RMM47: Rewind Mafia 2 (Day 1)
« Reply #255 on: November 14, 2017, 12:06:07 pm »

Mod Question: Would the "Funding" item work on factional abilities?
No.
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ashersky

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Re: RMM47: Rewind Mafia 2 (Day 1)
« Reply #256 on: November 14, 2017, 12:14:12 pm »

I have been thinking carefully. Please read this.

On the mod info:

Faust gave information about a public-item knowledge that everyone could ask about during the bidding phase. Every person had the opportunity (as Chairs has claimed that he did) to ask Faust what would happen if they received the sword stick, or (if they are scum) what would happen if town received the sword stick. This doesn't tell us anything about what actually happened with PPS, since Faust didn't tell us anything about what PPS actually asked or what question he answered for him. It would be different if PPS had a private item that only he knew about - then we couldn't expect Faust to tell the thread about how it works.

Now, about pushing for a slot 3 bidders claim:

Slot 3 is the scummy slot. It has a miller T-shirt as a penalty, which is no downside at all to a player who will already investigate as mafia-aligned. In fact scum wants to make sure that gets into the game, since it makes the cop's investigation worse. It also has an item that only scum can use. I thought it was obvious that it would be immediately destroyed if town bid on it. The flavor of the item says "Are you sure you are shady enough to acquire an item like this?" I think scum wants that extra kill, and they have a strong incentive to use their highest bidder to make sure they acquire the item as well. The final item slot is the double-voter, which is not a very high utility item, and is the only one that town can do anything with. It makes a ton of sense for a mid-ranked IC to bid for slot 3 - but it doesn't make a ton of sense for a town who understood how the slot worked to bid for it, except to try to deny the one-shot vig from scum.

Take a moment to look at all the slots again, and ask yourself which ones a generic 3 person mafia team would want. The self-motivator items are OK, but probably strictly worse than a guaranteed extra kill shot. Universal 1-shot is OK, depending on their powers. Actually,

Mod Question: Would the "Funding" item work on factional abilities?

The other items are all lower utility than a 1-shot vig, or completely useless for mafia, or come with awkward drawbacks (IE: The One Ring).

So my reason for pushing for a full claim of slot 3 is the same as why Teproc said that the poisoner should claim in Lost Mafia. The idea there was that scum is more likely to have the poisoner role because they are more likely to get a high draft position through cooperation, and that poisoner is probably the first slot they would take because it is the highest utility for them. And if you look at both runs, mafia got the poisoner both times. And arguably the only reason town was able to win that broken setup is because they pushed the poisoner (me) to claim D1. I thought from the outset that the one shot vig item would be a similar story here on a smaller scale.

All of this is why I thought PPS more likely to be scum even before he claimed to have acquired the sword stick. The fact that he didn't realize it should be destroyed if he is town points even more to him being scum I think. Whether he was town or scum, we KNOW that he bid for the item from a high draft without reading the text that states that it would be destroyed if given to a towny. We also know that he didn't realize it was destroyed at the beginning of the day. To me, that means the most likely explanation is that he is scum, and that the item is NOT destroyed, and that he didn't even realize that it should be destroyed until I started interrogating him about it.

PPE: 1

Igu is town or trying the hardest he ever has as scum.  I like town.
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Re: RMM47: Rewind Mafia 2 (Day 1)
« Reply #257 on: November 14, 2017, 12:14:38 pm »

I completely and utterly disagree with Galzria.  If he claimed scum, I’d proclaim him at IC at this point.
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Games (30): Mafia: 17, 21, 24, 31, 39, 43, 67, 72, 86 || Newbie: 7 || RMM: 6, 7, 10, 20, 22, 26, 32, 45 || Blitz: 4-7, X, 17-19, 22, 24 || BM: 14, 19

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ashersky

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Re: RMM47: Rewind Mafia 2 (Day 1)
« Reply #258 on: November 14, 2017, 12:16:25 pm »

Won’t lynch: igu, Dylan, mail-mi

Would lynch: PPS, Galzria, Teproc, gkrieg13

Everyone else: Whatever.
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Games (30): Mafia: 17, 21, 24, 31, 39, 43, 67, 72, 86 || Newbie: 7 || RMM: 6, 7, 10, 20, 22, 26, 32, 45 || Blitz: 4-7, X, 17-19, 22, 24 || BM: 14, 19

2015 f.ds Representative, World Forum Mafia Championships
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Town: 47 Games, 24 Wins
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schadd

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Re: RMM47: Rewind Mafia 2 (Day 1)
« Reply #259 on: November 14, 2017, 12:17:20 pm »

lmao
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schadd

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Re: RMM47: Rewind Mafia 2 (Day 1)
« Reply #260 on: November 14, 2017, 12:17:43 pm »

think i mentioned it already but ww is like verily town
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Galzria

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Re: RMM47: Rewind Mafia 2 (Day 1)
« Reply #261 on: November 14, 2017, 12:19:51 pm »

Won’t lynch: igu, Dylan, mail-mi

Would lynch: PPS, Galzria, Teproc, gkrieg13

Everyone else: Whatever.

You just try and lynch Teproc. I dare you.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.


Blitz:
TOWN Wins: ZM11, ZM13
TOWN Losses: ZM3, ZM5, ZM6, ZM8, ZM9, ZM10
SCUM Wins: ZM1
SCUM Losses: ZM4

Total Wins: 3
Total Losses: 7

Normal Games:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Traitor)

Total Wins: 13
Total Losses: 10

Other:
TOWN Wins: DM1, BM4, BM4, BM5, BM8, BM13, DoM1, OZ2, RM45
TOWN Losses: BM1, BM2, BM3, BM6, BM11, RM3, RM4
SCUM Wins: DM3, BM7, RM1, RM2
SCUM Losses: BM9, OZ1

Total Wins: 13
Total Losses: 9

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Re: RMM47: Rewind Mafia 2 (Day 1)
« Reply #262 on: November 14, 2017, 12:20:17 pm »

Won’t lynch: igu, Dylan, mail-mi

Would lynch: PPS, Galzria, Teproc, gkrieg13

Everyone else: Whatever.

Let's lynch Teproc.
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Witherweaver

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Re: RMM47: Rewind Mafia 2 (Day 1)
« Reply #263 on: November 14, 2017, 12:24:39 pm »

Let's not lynch Awaclus today.

Ok. Can we lynch PPS instead? vote: PPS.

I completely disagree with Ash. Faust confirmed nothing except to say that -IF PPS were town, he would be telling the truth.-. The IF in that statement is vital, but also very much present. Ash acts like it is not. What Faust "confirmed" was publicly available, albeit ambiguous, information. In his examples, who blocked who - despite claims - is not public information. You could reasonably ask the mod "If I Doctored Robz, would he have lived", and I would expect the mod to answer "A Doctor shields a player from a single night kill action". This neither confirms nor denies my claim that I Doctored Robz, it simply confirms the mechanic of Doctor.

Now, regarding PPS, he received an item. Either it was or was not destroyed upon arrival. If PPS is town, it's possible, albeit unlikely, that Faust made no notes whatsoever about it being destroyed. And it's possible, albeit unlikely, that PPS looked to see that he received the item, but didn't notice it's destroyed nature. What IS likely is that he received it, in tact, and then realized that as town that should not be the case, so he modified the claim.

None of this is really wrong, though I'm not thrilled about lynching on technicalities of mod behavior in general. If Ashersky was mod, I could see him not making any additional notes and expecting players to read carefully and ask questions. Faust has a bit of a different style, but it's not extremely unlikely.

One plus of lynching PPS is that if he is scum, this was a quite visible thing that partners would have to react to.

I'd lynch him but I'm not gunning for it.
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Witherweaver

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Re: RMM47: Rewind Mafia 2 (Day 1)
« Reply #264 on: November 14, 2017, 12:25:43 pm »

Galzria, since you aren't my scumpartner this game, I accept that you said what I was trying to say, but better.

You wouldn't accept it if he were your scum partner?
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faust

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Re: RMM47: Rewind Mafia 2 (Day 1)
« Reply #265 on: November 14, 2017, 12:36:13 pm »

Back from eating Wurstsalat with Bibiliskäs and Brägele, and realizing to my horror that Faust's countrymen think "Water" means "Sparkling Water" *shudders*

Vote Count 1.3

iguanaiguana (2): ashersky, DatSwan
pingpongsam (4): iguanaiguana, LaLight, silverspawn, Galzria
asherksy (1): pingpongsam
DatSwan (1): Witherweaver
silverspawn (1): gkrieg13
Haddock (1): SpaceAnemone
SpaceAnemone (1): schadd

Not Voting (6): Haddock, Awaclus, 2.71828....., JaketheBaseballGod22, Dylan32, chairs

With 17 alive, it takes 9 to lynch. Day 1 ends November 20 at 2 am forum time.
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Awaclus

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Re: RMM47: Rewind Mafia 2 (Day 1)
« Reply #266 on: November 14, 2017, 12:41:55 pm »

I think Chairs looks towny.

Awaclus, when you bid for slot 3 to try to push the miller T-shirt onto scum, did it occur to you that you could very easily just be pushing the miller T-shirt onto town?

I thought of the possibility, but I concluded that it wouldn't happen, since a high-ranked townie would realize they have something more useful to do with their bid than to deny scum a 1-shot vig (since denying scum the 1-shot vig could be done by someone who's not so high-ranked, such as myself).
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Re: RMM47: Rewind Mafia 2 (Day 1)
« Reply #267 on: November 14, 2017, 12:42:13 pm »

I think Awaclus is saying he thought
A: penalty item
B: good item
C: nothing

Yes, that's what I thought.
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Re: RMM47: Rewind Mafia 2 (Day 1)
« Reply #268 on: November 14, 2017, 12:52:56 pm »

I did invest time to understand how the bidding works and it's

1: good item
2: nothing
3: penalty item

Low draft numbers are good, high numbers are bad.

Actually faust changed the text when I was confused at first, but it it still confusing.
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Re: RMM47: Rewind Mafia 2 (Day 1)
« Reply #269 on: November 14, 2017, 12:55:16 pm »

What I think iguana got wrong in their analysis is the idea that slot 3 is somehow good for scum but not for town. First of all, given 2 factions, there is no such thing. Everyhing is exactly as good for town as it is bad for scum and vice versa. And in this case, denying scum a vig is about 5 times as powerful as having a doctor. Town with a low number should absolutely bid on slot 3.

But I'm voting PPS anyway.
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Re: RMM47: Rewind Mafia 2 (Day 1)
« Reply #270 on: November 14, 2017, 12:56:00 pm »

5 times as good as a doctor-shot, that is.
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iguanaiguana

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Re: RMM47: Rewind Mafia 2 (Day 1)
« Reply #271 on: November 14, 2017, 12:57:37 pm »

Galzria, since you aren't my scumpartner this game, I accept that you said what I was trying to say, but better.

You wouldn't accept it if he were your scum partner?

I'm being meta - sorry. When we were both scum in M100, it annoyed me a lot that we were both trying to mislead people the same way but people would listen to him but not me. So I took out my aggression by spending the whole game trying to bus him and expose the flaws in his reasoning.

So when he posted basically everything I said right after I had said it, it reminded me of M100 but since he's not my scumpartner, it's not making me angry.

I'm gunna agree with schadd that WW is lmao town.

What i want people to understand about PPS is that it's more likely for scum to choose 1-shot vig than town and that's why we should lynch him. The fact that he didn't understand that the one shot vig item should be destroyed when town receives it is a separate issue and that could come from either scum or town.
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iguanaiguana

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Re: RMM47: Rewind Mafia 2 (Day 1)
« Reply #272 on: November 14, 2017, 12:58:30 pm »

What I think iguana got wrong in their analysis is the idea that slot 3 is somehow good for scum but not for town. First of all, given 2 factions, there is no such thing. Everyhing is exactly as good for town as it is bad for scum and vice versa. And in this case, denying scum a vig is about 5 times as powerful as having a doctor. Town with a low number should absolutely bid on slot 3.

But I'm voting PPS anyway.

Yes but given that it's the best slot and that scum can easily see that it is the best slot for them, and that scum will have an easier time drafting high slots than town will because they cooperate, scum will get the slot more often than town will. So it's scummy to get the slot.
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ashersky

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Re: RMM47: Rewind Mafia 2 (Day 1)
« Reply #273 on: November 14, 2017, 01:03:15 pm »

I do agree that any subset of players who get to plan game guessing and bidding have a higher chance of doing well in said activities, so lower numbers could be somewhat more likely to be scum.
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f.ds Mafia Board Moderator

2013, 2014, 2015 Mafia Mod of the Year

Games (30): Mafia: 17, 21, 24, 31, 39, 43, 67, 72, 86 || Newbie: 7 || RMM: 6, 7, 10, 20, 22, 26, 32, 45 || Blitz: 4-7, X, 17-19, 22, 24 || BM: 14, 19

2015 f.ds Representative, World Forum Mafia Championships
2013, 2014 Mafia Player of the Year (Tie)

Town: 47 Games, 24 Wins
Scum: 22 Games, 13 Wins
11x MVP: M30, M83, ZM16, M25, M38, M61, M76, RMM5, RMM41, RMM46, M51

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Re: RMM47: Rewind Mafia 2 (Day 1)
« Reply #274 on: November 14, 2017, 01:08:19 pm »

What I think iguana got wrong in their analysis is the idea that slot 3 is somehow good for scum but not for town. First of all, given 2 factions, there is no such thing. Everyhing is exactly as good for town as it is bad for scum and vice versa. And in this case, denying scum a vig is about 5 times as powerful as having a doctor. Town with a low number should absolutely bid on slot 3.

But I'm voting PPS anyway.

Yes but given that it's the best slot and that scum can easily see that it is the best slot for them, and that scum will have an easier time drafting high slots than town will because they cooperate, scum will get the slot more often than town will. So it's scummy to get the slot.

well, if you assume that all other town players play well, then, given that you know your draftiung position, you should bid on slot 3  iff you are pos 1. it's not like there is any ambiguity left... town collectively know whether they can go first.
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