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Author Topic: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies  (Read 6340 times)

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Dingan

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Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2017, 02:08:01 pm »
+5

It turns out that Count can't help you reach $5 to get Windfall without a splitter.
Yes it can - you just gain & trash a lot of Coppers
The three "drawback" options on Count all prevent Windfall from triggering because they put cards on your deck or in your discard.
Not if you've trashed all the Coppers
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mameluke

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Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2017, 03:03:10 pm »
+1

Bridge Troll + Sage doesn't work when you want Sage to find $3 cards.

I'm terrible at noticing these sorts of cost-reduction anti-synergies. My recent one:

Peddler + Ritual
Me (early in the game): Oh sweet, I can gain a bunch of Peddlers cheaply and then trash them for 8VP + Curse
Me (later in the game): Oh. Right.

You can always buy Bonfire first to get rid of those pesky Bridge Trolls in play!

The particular problem with Ritual is that it happens during your buy phase, which is also when Peddler's cost reduction happens.

Peddler's cost reduction is contingent on Action cards in play; Bonfire can get rid of those for you.
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trivialknot

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Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2017, 04:49:32 pm »
0

It turns out that Count can't help you reach $5 to get Windfall without a splitter.
Yes it can - you just gain & trash a lot of Coppers
The three "drawback" options on Count all prevent Windfall from triggering because they put cards on your deck or in your discard.
Not if you've trashed all the Coppers
I do not understand what you're saying.  If you trash all coppers and have a deck of just Count plus Silver, you cannot trigger Windfall.
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AJD

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Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2017, 04:52:59 pm »
+8

It turns out that Count can't help you reach $5 to get Windfall without a splitter.
Yes it can - you just gain & trash a lot of Coppers
The three "drawback" options on Count all prevent Windfall from triggering because they put cards on your deck or in your discard.
Not if you've trashed all the Coppers
I do not understand what you're saying.  If you trash all coppers and have a deck of just Count plus Silver, you cannot trigger Windfall.

If you've trashed all the Coppers in the supply you can.
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trivialknot

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Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2017, 05:24:02 pm »
+3

It turns out that Count can't help you reach $5 to get Windfall without a splitter.
Yes it can - you just gain & trash a lot of Coppers
The three "drawback" options on Count all prevent Windfall from triggering because they put cards on your deck or in your discard.
Not if you've trashed all the Coppers
I do not understand what you're saying.  If you trash all coppers and have a deck of just Count plus Silver, you cannot trigger Windfall.

If you've trashed all the Coppers in the supply you can.
Oh I see.  I thought Dingan was referring to some ridiculous edge case, like having a Watchtower in hand.  I now see I was incorrect.
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Awaclus

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Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2017, 05:27:05 pm »
+2

It turns out that Count can't help you reach $5 to get Windfall without a splitter.
Yes it can - you just gain & trash a lot of Coppers
The three "drawback" options on Count all prevent Windfall from triggering because they put cards on your deck or in your discard.
Not if you've trashed all the Coppers
I do not understand what you're saying.  If you trash all coppers and have a deck of just Count plus Silver, you cannot trigger Windfall.

If you've trashed all the Coppers in the supply you can.
Oh I see.  I thought Dingan was referring to some ridiculous edge case, like having a Watchtower in hand.  I now see I was incorrect.

Well, he was referring to a ridiculous edge case, just a bit more ridiculous than you expected.
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Dingan

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Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2017, 05:28:59 pm »
+5

Just trying to tell an annoying and potentially harmful joke :P
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2017, 07:14:09 pm »
+11

Sarcasm and the internet have an annoying and potentially harmful communication anti-synergy.
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Seprix

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Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #33 on: September 19, 2017, 12:37:06 am »
+2

Throne Herald, hit Counting House, draw all the Coppers, and then hit Royal Blacksmith with the second play.
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E.Honda

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Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #34 on: September 22, 2017, 07:08:20 pm »
+6

I recently played a game with tournament and mountain pass and noticed mountain pass makes it even more critical to get the province first, since when you buy it, your opponent has to bet afterwards and if they bet high, you simply pass and have several rounds where they pay off their debt, unable to buy a province and you can get the prices easily. If they bet low, well, you already have a province to take prices and the debt wont hurt you that much.
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Awaclus

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Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #35 on: September 23, 2017, 01:09:54 am »
+1

I recently played a game with tournament and mountain pass and noticed mountain pass makes it even more critical to get the province first, since when you buy it, your opponent has to bet afterwards and if they bet high, you simply pass and have several rounds where they pay off their debt, unable to buy a province and you can get the prices easily. If they bet low, well, you already have a province to take prices and the debt wont hurt you that much.

However, in Rebuild games with Mountain Pass, it's very critical to not get the first Province, because if your opponent bets 40 (as they should), you can't bet more than that and then they're going to have a very major advantage.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #36 on: September 23, 2017, 01:03:46 pm »
+4

Pretty obvious one, but hasn't been mentioned yet:

Armory + Gardens

Cheap gainers are normally a great way to rush gardens, but Armory gains those dead cards to the top of your deck.

And a less obvious one:

Overlord + Cultist

So, you can essentially gain a Cultist before your first shuffle no matter what your opening is. Great! Then comes the moment when you realize that Overlord can only be used at the START of a Cultist chain, not in the middle. D'oh!

Incidentally, the game I discovered this anti-synergy was a game I lost to a guy who bought nothing but Bakers. He didn't buy a single Cultist and got all 10 ruins, and he still won. No, I have no idea how it happened! But I suspect this blunder had something to do with it.
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Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #37 on: September 24, 2017, 03:34:55 am »
+2

Playing Black Market/Storyteller and a Silver when you have a ton of Merchants left to play.

Upgrading coppers with Poor House on the board. We've all done it, don't lie.

It turns out that Count can't help you reach $5 to get Windfall without a splitter.

Please don't call them splitters.

[insert Life of Brian picture]
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #38 on: September 25, 2017, 01:45:40 am »
+1

Armory + Gardens

Cheap gainers are normally a great way to rush gardens, but Armory gains those dead cards to the top of your deck.

I think this falls squarely in the "potentially harmful" category rather than the "Oh wow, that did not work at all" category that fits some of these others. I don't think I'd aim for this strategy, but if forced into Gardens, Armory is better than nothing.

Quote
Overlord + Cultist

I would fall for this, for sure.
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sudgy

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Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #39 on: September 25, 2017, 12:41:31 pm »
+2

One I came by today: Torturer + Mountebank. Play Torturer, draw Mountebank, and your opponent takes the curse to block your Mountebank  :(

Torturer-masq is worse. You run out of curses without cursing because opponents just gains them to send them via his or your masq to you.

Are you sure you wouldn't be cursing in this situation?
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2017, 03:55:23 pm »
0

I think this falls squarely in the "potentially harmful" category rather than the "Oh wow, that did not work at all" category that fits some of these others. I don't think I'd aim for this strategy, but if forced into Gardens, Armory is better than nothing.

Well, if you read the OP, you'll see that this thread was originally supposed to be about synergies that aren't as strong as they look at first due to one or more annoying factors. It got hijacked fairly early on, though. I mean, there are lots of cards that just plain don't work with each other, at all. Those pairings just aren't all that interesting to point out, though.
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #41 on: September 25, 2017, 04:03:19 pm »
0

I think this falls squarely in the "potentially harmful" category rather than the "Oh wow, that did not work at all" category that fits some of these others. I don't think I'd aim for this strategy, but if forced into Gardens, Armory is better than nothing.

Well, if you read the OP, you'll see that this thread was originally supposed to be about synergies that aren't as strong as they look at first due to one or more annoying factors.

Right, I'm not disagreeing with your assessment; I guess I was just "sub-classifying" it. And the argument I made for it being useful -- a mid-game pivot to Gardens -- is certainly not the Gardens-rush scenario you suggested.
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Gazbag

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Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #42 on: September 27, 2017, 02:56:21 pm »
+4

Scrying pool+Chariot Race

Oh boy that spy attack will really help me win all these races!

Wait I need cards left in my deck to win races...
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #43 on: September 27, 2017, 03:53:05 pm »
+1

Any cantrip is reasonable in a pool deck. Just play race first.
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Gazbag

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Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #44 on: September 27, 2017, 04:03:38 pm »
+2

Any cantrip is reasonable in a pool deck. Just play race first.
Of course, but then if your opponent has an expensive card on top you can't use the spy attack on pool to help. Not to mention the fact that you don't always start with a race in your opening hand. I mean you'll still be relatively happy to pick a few races with spare buys in a pool game but there's certainly some annoying anti-synergy there.
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KingPeter

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Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #45 on: September 27, 2017, 04:29:33 pm »
+1

Any cantrip is reasonable in a pool deck. Just play race first.
Of course, but then if your opponent has an expensive card on top you can't use the spy attack on pool to help. Not to mention the fact that you don't always start with a race in your opening hand. I mean you'll still be relatively happy to pick a few races with spare buys in a pool game but there's certainly some annoying anti-synergy there.

pool + race only works if you have cards left in your deck after playing pool, which isn't always the case.  If you've trashed all your starting cards and have nothing but actions in your deck, the anti-synergy is certainly there.
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Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #46 on: September 27, 2017, 04:37:56 pm »
0

Any cantrip has positive synergy with Scrying Pool by virtue of being a cantrip. Pool draws it because it's a cantrip, and then it can draw another card (which is nice when you have cards in your deck that aren't Actions).
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Gazbag

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Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #47 on: September 27, 2017, 05:22:43 pm »
0

Any cantrip has positive synergy with Scrying Pool by virtue of being a cantrip. Pool draws it because it's a cantrip, and then it can draw another card (which is nice when you have cards in your deck that aren't Actions).

Everything you've said here is correct but I think you're missing the point a bit. It is in fact possible for a pair of cards to have both synergies and anti-synergies with each other. In the case of pool and race obviously cantrip actions are great with pool for the reasons you have stated. The anti-synergy is about the often overlooked spy attack that comes with pool which you want to use before you play your races but will often end up in too much of your deck being drawn due to scrying pools general brokenness.

You can do this with a number of card combinations mentioned in this thread. For example there is certainly synergy between Overlord and Cultist, any 5 cost has synergy with Overlord by virtue of being a 5 cost. If you play the Overlord as Cultist first and proceed to chain all of your regular Cultists after then it's great, play a Cultist first or expect a stack of Overlords to chain... not so great.

Count has pretty strong synergy with Windfall- it's a thinner, a really good one at that! That makes it so much easier to  draw your deck and trigger Windfall right? But then there's the anti-synergy that Count adds cards back to your deck and so you can't play it to actually buy the Windfall (unless it's the last card in your card).
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #48 on: September 27, 2017, 05:42:55 pm »
0

Another problem is that for Chariot Race, Scrying Pool itself counts as a measly $2.
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Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #49 on: September 27, 2017, 05:46:37 pm »
+2

Another problem is that for Chariot Race, Scrying Pool itself counts as a measly $2.

Even worse, your opponent is likely to have Scrying Pools in their deck.
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