Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 ... 8 9 [10]  All

Author Topic: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies  (Read 20662 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

ThetaSigma12

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1673
  • Shuffle iT Username: ThetaSigma12
  • Respect: +1780
    • View Profile
Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #225 on: November 27, 2018, 07:15:52 am »
0

The anti-synergy is that when you call a Reserve card you don't play it. Scepter says you can replay an action you played this turn. So if you play Mountebank, and then call Royal Carriage, you can't use Scepter to immediately return that Royal Carriage to the Tavern mat, although at first glance it feels entirely possible.
Logged
My magnum opus collection of dominion fan cards is available here!

crj

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1239
  • Respect: +1328
    • View Profile
Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #226 on: November 27, 2018, 10:08:47 am »
+7

The confusion is that you can (and frequently do) call Royal Carriage on the turn you play it.

If you play Royal Carriage, then play an Action, then call Royal Carriage, then Royal Carriage is "an Action card you played this turn that's in play", but is it "an Action card you played this turn that's still in play". Answer (by my understanding): no, you've Lost Track. It's now in play again, not still, and you can't play Scepter on it.
Logged

William Howard Taft

  • Thief
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 97
  • Respect: +125
    • View Profile
Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #227 on: December 04, 2018, 10:28:49 am »
+1

Guildhall/Mountebank

Now give your opponents Coffers when you attack them.
Logged

hypercube

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 135
  • Shuffle iT Username: xyrix
  • Respect: +310
    • View Profile
Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #228 on: December 04, 2018, 10:55:20 am »
+2

Guildhall/Mountebank

Now give your opponents Coffers when you attack them.

Similarly, Academy + (Cultist/Marauder).
Logged
I have sigs off.

chipperMDW

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 291
  • Respect: +629
    • View Profile
Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #229 on: December 04, 2018, 11:11:04 am »
+3

If you play Royal Carriage, then play an Action, then call Royal Carriage, then Royal Carriage is "an Action card you played this turn that's in play", but is it "an Action card you played this turn that's still in play". Answer (by my understanding): no, you've Lost Track. It's now in play again, not still, and you can't play Scepter on it.

Although I agree with your conclusion, it seems like you're implying that this is an instance of the Lose Track rule. The reason Scepter doesn't work here is specifically because it says "still"; I don't believe the Lose Track rule comes into play.

</nitpick>
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8036
  • Respect: +8818
    • View Profile
Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #230 on: December 04, 2018, 12:02:27 pm »
+1

If you play Royal Carriage, then play an Action, then call Royal Carriage, then Royal Carriage is "an Action card you played this turn that's in play", but is it "an Action card you played this turn that's still in play". Answer (by my understanding): no, you've Lost Track. It's now in play again, not still, and you can't play Scepter on it.

Although I agree with your conclusion, it seems like you're implying that this is an instance of the Lose Track rule. The reason Scepter doesn't work here is specifically because it says "still"; I don't believe the Lose Track rule comes into play.

</nitpick>

Correct. This should be exactly the same as Royal Carriage's "still in play" clause, which was confirmed by Donald to mean "hasn't left play since it was most recently played".

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=18798.msg762342#msg762342
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

jomini

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1006
  • Respect: +705
    • View Profile
Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #231 on: December 06, 2018, 08:53:14 pm »
0

Has anyone said Ritual/Peddler yet?

Works well with Coffers. Yeah it means you spend a turn netting just 7VP and have to generate $4 without playing an action ... but for crappy engines, it is just another source of VP if you are losing the province split and have time to play around with it.

Mission, Fleet, Den of Sin, and a few other things can make it viable to cash out one or more 7 VP peddlers. Honestly, 7 VP is worth basically anytime you are hitting the Duchies for VP and an idiot-not-to-take it option if you are unlikely to hit 2 +buy. Draw two silvers, a Ped, Village, Smithy? A lot of end games that should be a Ritual and be glad.
Logged

teamlyle

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 131
  • Shuffle iT Username: La-Ya
  • Ah... German Hello?
  • Respect: +295
    • View Profile
Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #232 on: December 19, 2018, 10:37:42 pm »
0

Apothecary + Mint: Apothecary allows you to get big hands of treasure, but then you don't want to trash the Copper with Mint.
Logged
"In your face." -Jacob
"Ooh. You just got burned." -Jack
"First place again, disciple!" -Ruikai
"Ugh... 399 cursors. Time to hack!" -Ben
"You gotta do your homework, dude!" -Yul
"Come on man, let the plat play." -The Plat
"It's nice to have a good 'in your face' every once in a while." -Jacob
"OBJECTION!!! The witness is being SUPER gross." -Phoenix Wright
"Milord, Inquisitor Fey sentences that burger to my stomach!" -Maya Fey
"Dude, I only had 4 cups of coffee this morning so I'm gonna crash." -Swi
"Okay, okay. My team name is: Team Lyle: the Advancing Armadillo." -Lyle
"Iím sorry Cedric, we just have to do what we have to do to get me to be a op." -Paul
"Well, I prefer loyal people. I donít want anyone to be a La-Ya except for me." -La-Ya
"I don't play Monkey vs. Monkey. I'm too busy in pacifist mode, watching my buildings survive and thrive!" -Joshua
Lyle's mom: Are you guys going to play regular Dominion, or are you going to play cheat?
Lyle: Of course we're playing Cheat Dominion!

Iridium

  • Pearl Diver
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13
  • Shuffle iT Username: Iridium
  • Respect: +4
    • View Profile
Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #233 on: February 21, 2019, 11:07:32 pm »
0

Tactician + Capitalism

All your nice juicy actions become way easier to play! Except you have to discard them all when you play Tactician...
Logged

Asper

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4995
  • Respect: +5267
    • View Profile
Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #234 on: February 22, 2019, 06:43:26 am »
0

Tactician + Capitalism

All your nice juicy actions become way easier to play! Except you have to discard them all when you play Tactician...
You just play Tactician last...

faust

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2556
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +3531
    • View Profile
Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #235 on: February 22, 2019, 06:58:09 am »
+3

Tactician + Capitalism

All your nice juicy actions become way easier to play! Except you have to discard them all when you play Tactician...
You just play Tactician last...
Tactician does not have +$ amounts in its text...
Logged
Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

Asper

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4995
  • Respect: +5267
    • View Profile
Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #236 on: February 22, 2019, 07:39:01 am »
0

Tactician + Capitalism

All your nice juicy actions become way easier to play! Except you have to discard them all when you play Tactician...
You just play Tactician last...
Tactician does not have +$ amounts in its text...
Yep, I realized that shortly after posting. Sorry, I'm not that good at Capitalism.

JoeBot

  • Herbalist
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5
  • Shuffle iT Username: JoeBot
  • Respect: +2
    • View Profile
Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #237 on: February 22, 2019, 09:08:54 am »
+1

Tactician + Merchant

Tactician likes virtual coin, but the silver condition is problematic.
Logged

King Leon

  • Witch
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 451
  • Respect: +356
    • View Profile
Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #238 on: March 10, 2019, 08:14:27 pm »
0

Capitalism + Mandarin/Mint
In Capitalism, all your Monuments are Plunder. Mandarins love Plunder, while Mints prefer to trash it.
Logged

jomini

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1006
  • Respect: +705
    • View Profile
Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #239 on: March 14, 2019, 09:57:14 pm »
0

Apothecary + Mint: Apothecary allows you to get big hands of treasure, but then you don't want to trash the Copper with Mint.

Eh, I've done it several times. Apothecary lets you draw mad coppers, true. But it also makes for extremely reliable engines. With Herald, Wishing well, Mystic, Golem, or even just Village/Smithy Apothecary with zero coppers greatly increases engine reliability.

Ultimately it is the same idea as buying a Guide rather than a Silver. Guide does not give you a lick more buying power, but she drastically decreases your odds of whiffing. The opportunity cost of Guide is losing the $ density that Silver would give. Similarly, nuking 7 coppers is losing a lot of functional cash density ... but on the flip side your odds of whiffing on a deck drawing engine plummet when you have 7 fewer stop cards.

And lastly there are quite unambiguous cases: open something like Fortune teller/Pot. Get the big hand, buy a Plat. Get the big hand again, don't play the Plat, get Mint. Then Mint plats repeatedly. Yeah, you could build up with Silver to Minting Plats ... but if you are doing something even vaguely engine-ish Apothecary -> Mint is far better after you buy the Mint and much easier to effectively trash down.
Logged

jomini

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1006
  • Respect: +705
    • View Profile
Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #240 on: March 14, 2019, 10:02:44 pm »
0

Tactician + Merchant

Tactician likes virtual coin, but the silver condition is problematic.

Ehh, sure it stops double Tac barring other enablers, but if you are building any sort of single Tac setup, Merchant can be just fine. Something like Tac/Merchant/Bank can increase buying power without requiring increased drawing.

I mean, I have bought many Tacs knowing that the only $ on the board was treasure. I just make sure that I can get twice as much or more out of the one turn where I get to gain anything.

For example, Tac/Merchant is perfectly fine with Baths. On Tac turns you get 2 VP and a double hand to follow. On post-Tac turns you have double the buying power. If Merchant would be better than Silver in a 5 card hand, it is rarely worse in a 10 card hand.
Logged

jomini

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1006
  • Respect: +705
    • View Profile
Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #241 on: March 14, 2019, 10:11:49 pm »
0

Capitalism + Mandarin/Mint
In Capitalism, all your Monuments are Plunder. Mandarins love Plunder, while Mints prefer to trash it.

I am not sure I follow you.

Capitalism/Mint allows you to get expensive cards (e.g. $5/6) from playing a single action. Terminal $6 gainer? You mean like Artisan without the top deck penalty? Totally worth it.

Mandarin/Capitalism? Okay so say I use something like Haven or Gear to make a hand of 3 Sacred groves/Silver/Copper. I then buy Mandarin (topping deck them all) and having $8 left for province. Or do 5 Groves for colony. Each turn I top deck all the Groves after buying a Mandarin. There are many, many potential Golden Decks with Capitalism/Mandarin. Things like Haggler/Mandarin or Courtier/Mandarin become easy Golden Decks with Capitalism.

Why exactly do you think these things are bad?
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8036
  • Respect: +8818
    • View Profile
Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #242 on: March 15, 2019, 10:57:27 am »
+1

Capitalism + Mandarin/Mint
In Capitalism, all your Monuments are Plunder. Mandarins love Plunder, while Mints prefer to trash it.

I am not sure I follow you.

Capitalism/Mint allows you to get expensive cards (e.g. $5/6) from playing a single action. Terminal $6 gainer? You mean like Artisan without the top deck penalty? Totally worth it.

Mandarin/Capitalism? Okay so say I use something like Haven or Gear to make a hand of 3 Sacred groves/Silver/Copper. I then buy Mandarin (topping deck them all) and having $8 left for province. Or do 5 Groves for colony. Each turn I top deck all the Groves after buying a Mandarin. There are many, many potential Golden Decks with Capitalism/Mandarin. Things like Haggler/Mandarin or Courtier/Mandarin become easy Golden Decks with Capitalism.

Why exactly do you think these things are bad?

Pretty sure he's talking about the on-gain abilities. When you buy Mint, you trash all your good actions.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

jomini

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1006
  • Respect: +705
    • View Profile
Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #243 on: March 15, 2019, 10:02:26 pm »
0

Capitalism + Mandarin/Mint
In Capitalism, all your Monuments are Plunder. Mandarins love Plunder, while Mints prefer to trash it.

I am not sure I follow you.

Capitalism/Mint allows you to get expensive cards (e.g. $5/6) from playing a single action. Terminal $6 gainer? You mean like Artisan without the top deck penalty? Totally worth it.

Mandarin/Capitalism? Okay so say I use something like Haven or Gear to make a hand of 3 Sacred groves/Silver/Copper. I then buy Mandarin (topping deck them all) and having $8 left for province. Or do 5 Groves for colony. Each turn I top deck all the Groves after buying a Mandarin. There are many, many potential Golden Decks with Capitalism/Mandarin. Things like Haggler/Mandarin or Courtier/Mandarin become easy Golden Decks with Capitalism.

Why exactly do you think these things are bad?

Pretty sure he's talking about the on-gain abilities. When you buy Mint, you trash all your good actions.

Yes, not being a complete idiot, I understand that. How is that worse synergy than with Plat or Bank?

Has anyone ever cared that buying Mint made them trash all their Plats or Banks? I mean seriously, I cannot think of a single game where I thought I would totally buy Mint if only these expensive and high utility treasures weren't on the board.

With Capitalism it is even worse. I can play a few of the "good actions" ... just before I trip Capitalism. At most I have one turn with a dead Mint, but I can still trash coppers, use Mint as "gain a power $5", and win.

And particularly for Mandarin, again how is top decking actions bad? I have the option of spending $5 and top decking all my Bazaars? You mean I get 100% chance of hitting all my villages  and zero chance of whiffing for a shuffle? Yeah, real terrible "on gain" effect. I have a dozen odd setups to make a Golden Mandarin deck. Or another fun option, gain Mandarin, gain Villa, replay all your action coins (or do it off Story or Bm).

It is like the silliness with Nights and Wandering minstrel. Yes there is a blindingly obvious negative to mixing the cards if you play poorly and just look at one interaction. But if you play well, they work amazingly well together. If Capitalism is worth buying, it is a minority of boards where Mint is not also worth buying. Mandarin is far more likely to be worth buying on Capitalism boards, particularly for the interaction between the on-gain effect and the action-treasures.

I mean seriously if Mint/Mandarin don't synergize with Capitalism and good +$ actions ... what exactly do we think they synergize with?
Logged

hhelibebcnofnena

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 290
  • Respect: +171
    • View Profile
Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #244 on: April 23, 2019, 01:56:02 pm »
0

I posted this originally in the neat card interactions because I couldn't find this thread, but I will post it in the correct thread now.

Double Tactician doesn't work with Goons/Watchtower.
Logged
Hydrogen Helium Lithium Beryllium Boron Carbon Nitrogen Oxygen Fluorine Neon Sodium

LittleFish

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 207
  • Respect: +52
    • View Profile
Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #245 on: April 23, 2019, 04:16:32 pm »
0

Bridge Troll + Sage doesn't work when you want Sage to find $3 cards.

I'm terrible at noticing these sorts of cost-reduction anti-synergies. My recent one:

Peddler + Ritual
Me (early in the game): Oh sweet, I can gain a bunch of Peddlers cheaply and then trash them for 8VP + Curse
Me (later in the game): Oh. Right.
this works as long as you don't play actions before ritual
Logged

buckets

  • Scout
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 40
  • Respect: +14
    • View Profile
Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #246 on: June 11, 2019, 12:03:32 pm »
0

Logged

William Howard Taft

  • Thief
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 97
  • Respect: +125
    • View Profile
Re: Annoying and potentially harmful card anti-synergies
« Reply #247 on: August 26, 2019, 11:11:10 am »
+8

Poacher / Fleet

I took my Fleet turn with four empty piles...
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 8 9 [10]  All
 

Page created in 0.09 seconds with 21 queries.