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Author Topic: New Stash + Inn  (Read 866 times)

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Asper

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2017, 09:04:21 pm »
0

About the new rule, I do like Stash, but it's just one card. It still behaves kind of the same, so it's not too bad. Nonetheless, I kind of agree that the shuffle rule didn't really need fixing. At least I didn't see a reason that was stronger than the best reason to keep the old variant, which was "you'd have to change the rules for that". And well, that reason now applies to the new shuffling rule, so I'm in favor of keeping that now. (I'm still totally ignoring the rule, but I also sometimes pull out Colony and Platinum without the first drawn card being from Prosperity, and the police hasn't been here yet. I guess nobody cares.)

Donald X.

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2017, 09:17:52 pm »
+1

The original shuffle rule didn't work and needed fixing; you can "do the thing with the remaining cards, then shuffle to get the rest" when it's drawing, but not for every conceivable action. So I fixed it! Congrats on a job well done, Donald X.! Keep up the good work! Thanks and I will.
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pacovf

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2017, 09:40:22 pm »
+3

The original shuffle rule didn't work and needed fixing; you can "do the thing with the remaining cards, then shuffle to get the rest" when it's drawing, but not for every conceivable action. So I fixed it! Congrats on a job well done, Donald X.! Keep up the good work! Thanks and I will.

I don't particularly care one way or another, and I apologize if this has been answered before, but can you give an example where an action would not work with the previous shuffling rule?
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Jeebus

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2017, 12:15:02 am »
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Doesn't this solve the apparent rules problem? If there is no "remaining deck" in these cases, then the "look through your remaining deck" instruction does nothing. All you're left with is to place Stash anywhere in the shuffled cards.

Well, I guess.

I would interpret "remaining" as just a clarifying word, not a functional qualifier, just like "another" on Port. "Gain another Port" also works when you buy an Inherited Estate, even though technically there's no "other" Port in that case. So the meaning is always, "gain a Port". "Another" has no functional importance.

Likewise, in all normal circumstances, Stash works like just, "look through your deck", "remaining" having no functional importance. However, since it is supposed to work differently with Inn, saying that "remaining deck" is a functional description does actually get us there.

Donald X.

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2017, 03:30:41 pm »
+1

I don't particularly care one way or another, and I apologize if this has been answered before, but can you give an example where an action would not work with the previous shuffling rule?
In games with published cards, the only issues are confusing people when the things you do with the cards are more involved (e.g. Lookout), and people forgetting how many cards they've drawn for that Smithy. Those are both significant issues so I am glad to have addressed them.

It is easy to make an unpublished card that creates issues, and you can argue in each case "oh but instead that could say, set aside the top 3 cards, then do this thing." You still have confusion because it isn't clear to everyone that you shuffle to finish doing the setting aside before continuing. It's not great otherwise.

You can also say, "okay that unpublished card doesn't do what you intended sometimes, but you can still resolve it, therefore no problem." If you say that, I disagree.

The game did not start out having much "When x happens, do y." It has a bunch of it now. If you have some more complex command for multiple cards, something may trigger off of it; thus all sorts of things can happen in the middle. For example there was an attack that could trash the top 2 cards of everyone else's deck (somehow it did not survive). But things trigger on trashing; they'd happen for the first card before you shuffled.
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Jeebus

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #30 on: September 15, 2017, 06:10:27 pm »
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I see that for instance with Lookout, the new rule creates less confusion. Before you had to know that the revealed cards are not in your deck.

But I just want to note that you still have to know that you shuffle to finish setting aside or revealing, because of Library and digging cards like Fortune Teller or Hunting Party. And also, at least one card, Golem, still makes it necessary to know that revealed cards are not in your deck.

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2017, 09:41:35 pm »
+6

Since Stash has changed, would you mind if we got an updated official FAQ?  I can try my hand at it, if you like:

This is a Treasure worth .  When you're shuffling, and Stash is one of the cards you're shuffling, you can put it anywhere in your deck.  You can't look at the fronts of the cards you're shuffling; Stash has a different card back so you know where it is.  If you have multiple copies of Stash, you can clump them together, or spread them out however you want.  If there are any cards in your deck that aren't being shuffled, such as when you had fewer than 5 cards left in your deck when you needed to draw a new hand for next turn, you can look through those remaining cards before putting them on top of your newly shuffled deck, though you can't put Stash in among those remaining cards.  If a card tells you to shuffle your entire deck, like Inn (from Dominion: Hinterlands), and Stash is in your deck, there is no "remaining deck" that isn't being shuffled, so you don't get to look at the front of any cards.  If Stash is in your discard pile when this happens, it's not being shuffled, so just shuffle normally.  Because Stash has a different back, you'll be able to tell when it's in other players' hands, or set aside for a Haven (from Dominion: Seaside), and so on.
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Donald X.

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2017, 12:13:43 am »
+2

Since Stash has changed, would you mind if we got an updated official FAQ?  I can try my hand at it, if you like:

This is a Treasure worth .  When you're shuffling, and Stash is one of the cards you're shuffling, you can put it anywhere in your deck.  You can't look at the fronts of the cards you're shuffling; Stash has a different card back so you know where it is.  If you have multiple copies of Stash, you can clump them together, or spread them out however you want.  If there are any cards in your deck that aren't being shuffled, such as when you had fewer than 5 cards left in your deck when you needed to draw a new hand for next turn, you can look through those remaining cards before putting them on top of your newly shuffled deck, though you can't put Stash in among those remaining cards.  If a card tells you to shuffle your entire deck, like Inn (from Dominion: Hinterlands), and Stash is in your deck, there is no "remaining deck" that isn't being shuffled, so you don't get to look at the front of any cards.  If Stash is in your discard pile when this happens, it's not being shuffled, so just shuffle normally.  Because Stash has a different back, you'll be able to tell when it's in other players' hands, or set aside for a Haven (from Dominion: Seaside), and so on.
Approved.
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Jeebus

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2017, 10:42:55 am »
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If there are any cards in your deck that aren't being shuffled, such as when you had fewer than 5 cards left in your deck when you needed to draw a new hand for next turn, you can look through those remaining cards before putting them on top of your newly shuffled deck, though you can't put Stash in among those remaining cards.

It says to look through the remaining deck before adding the shuffled cards, but it should say to do it before placing Stash. As is the principal meaning of looking through it gets lost.

If a card tells you to shuffle your entire deck, like Inn (from Dominion: Hinterlands), and Stash is in your deck, there is no "remaining deck" that isn't being shuffled, so you don't get to look at the front of any cards. If Stash is in your discard pile when this happens, it's not being shuffled, so just shuffle normally.

The second sentence doesn't seem to clarify anything. I mean, what could you do that isn't "shuffling normally"? Look at the front of the cards? That was already addressed in the first sentence.

werothegreat

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #34 on: September 18, 2017, 10:52:22 am »
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If there are any cards in your deck that aren't being shuffled, such as when you had fewer than 5 cards left in your deck when you needed to draw a new hand for next turn, you can look through those remaining cards before putting them on top of your newly shuffled deck, though you can't put Stash in among those remaining cards.

It says to look through the remaining deck before adding the shuffled cards, but it should say to do it before placing Stash. As is the principal meaning of looking through it gets lost.

If a card tells you to shuffle your entire deck, like Inn (from Dominion: Hinterlands), and Stash is in your deck, there is no "remaining deck" that isn't being shuffled, so you don't get to look at the front of any cards. If Stash is in your discard pile when this happens, it's not being shuffled, so just shuffle normally.

The second sentence doesn't seem to clarify anything. I mean, what could you do that isn't "shuffling normally"? Look at the front of the cards? That was already addressed in the first sentence.

How about: "If there are any cards in your deck that aren't being shuffled, such as when you had fewer than 5 cards left in your deck when you needed to draw a new hand for next turn, you can look through those remaining cards before you place Stash, though you can't put Stash in among those remaining cards.  Put the remaining cards back on top once you finish shuffling."

And I'd think it would be obvious that "shuffle normally" means "shuffle like you would if Stash weren't a thing".
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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #35 on: September 18, 2017, 11:04:21 am »
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How about: "If there are any cards in your deck that aren't being shuffled, such as when you had fewer than 5 cards left in your deck when you needed to draw a new hand for next turn, you can look through those remaining cards before you place Stash, though you can't put Stash in among those remaining cards.  Put the remaining cards back on top once you finish shuffling."

And I'd think it would be obvious that "shuffle normally" means "shuffle like you would if Stash weren't a thing".

The first one seems fine. (Although the word "back" is confusing, I think, since you're not putting anything back. I would write, "Add the shuffled cards to the bottom of your deck," which is more in line with the rulebook.)

I know that's what "shuffle normally" means, but that wasn't my point. What is the sentence clarifying? What could you do that isn't "shuffling normally"? Look at the front of the cards? That was already addressed in the first sentence.

AJD

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #36 on: September 18, 2017, 11:09:42 am »
+1

What you might do that isn't "shuffling normally" is fish the Stashes out of your discard pile and shuffle them into your deck.
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Jeebus

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #37 on: September 18, 2017, 11:15:21 am »
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What you might do that isn't "shuffling normally" is fish the Stashes out of your discard pile and shuffle them into your deck.

That is true. But I thought that was so obvious that it creates more confusion to even mention. It's also true in all other cases where you have Stash in your discard pile, not just with Inn.

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #38 on: September 18, 2017, 11:17:45 am »
+1

What you might do that isn't "shuffling normally" is fish the Stashes out of your discard pile and shuffle them into your deck.

That is true. But I thought that was so obvious that it creates more confusion to even mention. It's also true in all other cases where you have Stash in your discard pile, not just with Inn.

But most times when you shuffle, you're shuffling your discard pile.  The specific exceptions to this are effects like Inn's.
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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #39 on: September 18, 2017, 11:35:05 am »
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What you might do that isn't "shuffling normally" is fish the Stashes out of your discard pile and shuffle them into your deck.

That is true. But I thought that was so obvious that it creates more confusion to even mention. It's also true in all other cases where you have Stash in your discard pile, not just with Inn.

But most times when you shuffle, you're shuffling your discard pile.  The specific exceptions to this are effects like Inn's.

Right, true.
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