Dominion > Rules Questions

New Stash + Inn

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Jeebus:
As I'm looking more closely on Stash, I think the new text is a bit confusing. Of course I know how it's supposed to work: You get to look at the remaining cards in your deck, meaning the cards you're not shuffling, before placing Stash. A player has to know about the new shuffling rule for this text to make any sense of course, and even then it has caused some confusion. But I wonder if it's even technically correct.

When shuffling this, you may look through your remaining deck, and may put this anywhere in the shuffled cards.

Usually, "when" means "after", so "when shuffling this" should mean after you've shuffled. ("Shuffling" must refer to just actually shuffling, so before you add the shuffled cards to your deck.) So, after shuffling your discard pile, you may look through your deck, and then you fish out Stash and place it anywhere in the shuffled cards. Then you add those cards to your deck. This works fine.

But what about Inn, Annex and Donate, where you actually shuffle your deck? You are told to shuffle some cards into your deck. So you first add those cards to your deck, then you shuffle your deck. This is different from the normal shuffling, because normally the cards you shuffle are not in your deck. Going by the above, Stash now lets you look through your deck after you've shuffled it, and then lets you place Stash with complete knowledge. I assume this is not intended?

We could assume that the meaning is rather "when you would shuffle this". So the first thing you do is always look through your deck, before shuffling. But you don't do the next instruction until after you've shuffled (which is clearly indicated by "in the shuffled cards"). So the interpretation is something like: When you would shuffle this, you may look through your remaining deck, and then after shuffling, you may put this anywhere in the shuffled cards.

Asper:
Right... I guess normally, when you trigger a reshuffle with e.g. Smithy, "the remaining deck" are cards that would go into your hand, so it's fine. Here it isn't, because you now get to look through cards that are not going to end up on your hand. I don't think it means that you can stack your deck on buying Inn for Stash games, but the fact that you can look through it is bad enough. Ouch.

EDIT: Also, your reasoning seems logical to me. You should be able to stack Stash with full knowledge. It looks like a blooper to me.

DG:

--- Quote from: Jeebus on September 14, 2017, 10:36:06 am ---As I'm looking more closely on Stash, I think the new text is a bit confusing. Of course I know how it's supposed to work: You get to look at the remaining cards in your deck, meaning the cards you're not shuffling, before placing Stash.
--- End quote ---

No I think you're misinterpreting this already. Let's take the Wiki shuffling example.

Wiki - You play a smithy and need to draw 3 cards. However, you only have 2 cards in your (draw) Deck (and some other cards in your discard pile). In this case, you would reshuffle your discard pile, put it face down under the 2 cards in your deck, then you would pick up the 3 cards cards you need from your new deck (the 2 old cards and the top of the shuffled cards). You would not draw 2 cards first and then reshuffle and then take the top card of the new deck (though this makes no practical difference except with Stash.

So here you shuffle (randomize) the discard pile, put those cards under the 2 cards of the old draw deck to make a new draw deck, look through the backs of new draw deck, and put Stash anywhere in the shuffled cards (anywhere from 3rd to bottom). The practical difference with Stash under the new shuffle rules is that you can still see all the cards in the draw deck (old and new) but you can't put stash among the old cards.

All the stuff about "when" meaning "after" is a red herring as this is all part of the shuffling process. I see no problem with donate, inn, or annex.

Jeebus:

--- Quote from: DG on September 14, 2017, 11:48:00 am ---
--- Quote from: Jeebus on September 14, 2017, 10:36:06 am ---As I'm looking more closely on Stash, I think the new text is a bit confusing. Of course I know how it's supposed to work: You get to look at the remaining cards in your deck, meaning the cards you're not shuffling, before placing Stash.
--- End quote ---

No I think you're misinterpreting this already. Let's take the Wiki shuffling example.

Wiki - You play a smithy and need to draw 3 cards. However, you only have 2 cards in your (draw) Deck (and some other cards in your discard pile). In this case, you would reshuffle your discard pile, put it face down under the 2 cards in your deck, then you would pick up the 3 cards cards you need from your new deck (the 2 old cards and the top of the shuffled cards). You would not draw 2 cards first and then reshuffle and then take the top card of the new deck (though this makes no practical difference except with Stash.

So here you shuffle (randomize) the discard pile, put those cards under the 2 cards of the old draw deck to make a new draw deck, look through the backs of new draw deck, and put Stash anywhere in the shuffled cards (anywhere from 3rd to bottom). The practical difference with Stash under the new shuffle rules is that you can still see all the cards in the draw deck (old and new) but you can't put stash among the old cards.

--- End quote ---

No, you could never put Stash among the old cards. With the old shuffle rule, you would draw the old cards first. Obviously you could not place Stash among the cards in your hand. Also, you can't and could never see all the cards in the draw deck. You realize that this is about seeing the front of the cards, right?

In your explanation you're missing the part of new Stash that says that you may look through your deck. The wiki is not entirely correct, because it should say, "this makes no practical difference except with the 1st edition of Stash". The new shuffle rule changed old Stash so that you would not get to see the remaining cards in your deck before you place Stash. That's why Donald changed Stash so that you specifically get to see those cards.

Asper:
I think Jeebus and I had different issues with the new wording.

Mine was that I understood it so that if you shuffle your deck (not the discard pile, which I always understood was the cards you shuffle), the cards you shuffle and the remaining deck were the same. So, you'd be able to look through your deck when shuffeling it. However, thinking about it again, I take back my comment. If you define "remaining deck" to mean the cards you are NOT currently shuffling (whether or not they are your deck or what have you), everything is as it's supposed to be.

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