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Jeebus

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New Stash + Inn
« on: September 14, 2017, 10:36:06 am »
+2

As I'm looking more closely on Stash, I think the new text is a bit confusing. Of course I know how it's supposed to work: You get to look at the remaining cards in your deck, meaning the cards you're not shuffling, before placing Stash. A player has to know about the new shuffling rule for this text to make any sense of course, and even then it has caused some confusion. But I wonder if it's even technically correct.

When shuffling this, you may look through your remaining deck, and may put this anywhere in the shuffled cards.

Usually, "when" means "after", so "when shuffling this" should mean after you've shuffled. ("Shuffling" must refer to just actually shuffling, so before you add the shuffled cards to your deck.) So, after shuffling your discard pile, you may look through your deck, and then you fish out Stash and place it anywhere in the shuffled cards. Then you add those cards to your deck. This works fine.

But what about Inn, Annex and Donate, where you actually shuffle your deck? You are told to shuffle some cards into your deck. So you first add those cards to your deck, then you shuffle your deck. This is different from the normal shuffling, because normally the cards you shuffle are not in your deck. Going by the above, Stash now lets you look through your deck after you've shuffled it, and then lets you place Stash with complete knowledge. I assume this is not intended?

We could assume that the meaning is rather "when you would shuffle this". So the first thing you do is always look through your deck, before shuffling. But you don't do the next instruction until after you've shuffled (which is clearly indicated by "in the shuffled cards"). So the interpretation is something like: When you would shuffle this, you may look through your remaining deck, and then after shuffling, you may put this anywhere in the shuffled cards.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 10:37:26 am by Jeebus »
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Asper

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2017, 11:06:14 am »
+1

Right... I guess normally, when you trigger a reshuffle with e.g. Smithy, "the remaining deck" are cards that would go into your hand, so it's fine. Here it isn't, because you now get to look through cards that are not going to end up on your hand. I don't think it means that you can stack your deck on buying Inn for Stash games, but the fact that you can look through it is bad enough. Ouch.

EDIT: Also, your reasoning seems logical to me. You should be able to stack Stash with full knowledge. It looks like a blooper to me.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 11:08:28 am by Asper »
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DG

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2017, 11:48:00 am »
0

As I'm looking more closely on Stash, I think the new text is a bit confusing. Of course I know how it's supposed to work: You get to look at the remaining cards in your deck, meaning the cards you're not shuffling, before placing Stash.

No I think you're misinterpreting this already. Let's take the Wiki shuffling example.

Wiki - You play a smithy and need to draw 3 cards. However, you only have 2 cards in your (draw) Deck (and some other cards in your discard pile). In this case, you would reshuffle your discard pile, put it face down under the 2 cards in your deck, then you would pick up the 3 cards cards you need from your new deck (the 2 old cards and the top of the shuffled cards). You would not draw 2 cards first and then reshuffle and then take the top card of the new deck (though this makes no practical difference except with Stash.

So here you shuffle (randomize) the discard pile, put those cards under the 2 cards of the old draw deck to make a new draw deck, look through the backs of new draw deck, and put Stash anywhere in the shuffled cards (anywhere from 3rd to bottom). The practical difference with Stash under the new shuffle rules is that you can still see all the cards in the draw deck (old and new) but you can't put stash among the old cards.

All the stuff about "when" meaning "after" is a red herring as this is all part of the shuffling process. I see no problem with donate, inn, or annex.
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Jeebus

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2017, 12:18:11 pm »
0

As I'm looking more closely on Stash, I think the new text is a bit confusing. Of course I know how it's supposed to work: You get to look at the remaining cards in your deck, meaning the cards you're not shuffling, before placing Stash.

No I think you're misinterpreting this already. Let's take the Wiki shuffling example.

Wiki - You play a smithy and need to draw 3 cards. However, you only have 2 cards in your (draw) Deck (and some other cards in your discard pile). In this case, you would reshuffle your discard pile, put it face down under the 2 cards in your deck, then you would pick up the 3 cards cards you need from your new deck (the 2 old cards and the top of the shuffled cards). You would not draw 2 cards first and then reshuffle and then take the top card of the new deck (though this makes no practical difference except with Stash.

So here you shuffle (randomize) the discard pile, put those cards under the 2 cards of the old draw deck to make a new draw deck, look through the backs of new draw deck, and put Stash anywhere in the shuffled cards (anywhere from 3rd to bottom). The practical difference with Stash under the new shuffle rules is that you can still see all the cards in the draw deck (old and new) but you can't put stash among the old cards.

No, you could never put Stash among the old cards. With the old shuffle rule, you would draw the old cards first. Obviously you could not place Stash among the cards in your hand. Also, you can't and could never see all the cards in the draw deck. You realize that this is about seeing the front of the cards, right?

In your explanation you're missing the part of new Stash that says that you may look through your deck. The wiki is not entirely correct, because it should say, "this makes no practical difference except with the 1st edition of Stash". The new shuffle rule changed old Stash so that you would not get to see the remaining cards in your deck before you place Stash. That's why Donald changed Stash so that you specifically get to see those cards.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 02:25:27 pm by Jeebus »
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Asper

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2017, 12:21:48 pm »
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I think Jeebus and I had different issues with the new wording.

Mine was that I understood it so that if you shuffle your deck (not the discard pile, which I always understood was the cards you shuffle), the cards you shuffle and the remaining deck were the same. So, you'd be able to look through your deck when shuffeling it. However, thinking about it again, I take back my comment. If you define "remaining deck" to mean the cards you are NOT currently shuffling (whether or not they are your deck or what have you), everything is as it's supposed to be.

Jeebus

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2017, 12:32:15 pm »
0

I think Jeebus and I had different issues with the new wording.

Mine was that I understood it so that if you shuffle your deck (not the discard pile, which I always understood was the cards you shuffle), the cards you shuffle and the remaining deck were the same. So, you'd be able to look through your deck when shuffeling it. However, thinking about it again, I take back my comment. If you define "remaining deck" to mean the cards you are NOT currently shuffling (whether or not they are your deck or what have you), everything is as it's supposed to be.

When you shuffle your discard pile (which is how you shuffle normally), these cards are not in your deck yet. That's how you can look through the remaining cards in your deck. In this case the remaining deck is the cards you're not shuffling, not per definition, it just is.

DG

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2017, 01:34:37 pm »
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No, you could never put Stash among the old cards. With the old shuffle rule, you would draw the old cards first. Obviously you could not place Stash among the cards in your hand. Also, you can't and could never see all the cards in the draw deck. You realize that this is about seeing the front of the cards, right?

I never said you could put stash among the old cards. The practical difference was that with the old shuffle rules there was never was an old draw deck when you played a smithy. You drew the last two cards, shuffled the discards into a new draw deck, looked at the back of the cards, placed the stash anywhere in the deck, drew the third card.

From the Wiki.
Official FAQ
• Stash is a Treasure that produces when played, like Silver.
• Whenever you shuffle your deck, you can choose where in your deck each copy of Stash that you have goes.
• You can't look at the fronts of the other cards in your deck to see where to put it; Stash itself has a different card back, so that's how you'll know where it is.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 01:43:12 pm by DG »
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Donald X.

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2017, 01:37:58 pm »
+4

When shuffling this, you may look through your remaining deck, and may put this anywhere in the shuffled cards.

Usually, "when" means "after", so "when shuffling this" should mean after you've shuffled. ("Shuffling" must refer to just actually shuffling, so before you add the shuffled cards to your deck.) So, after shuffling your discard pile, you may look through your deck, and then you fish out Stash and place it anywhere in the shuffled cards. Then you add those cards to your deck. This works fine.
You are correct that it is not technically accurate. Ideally I would have just given up on maintaining exact functionality, and said,

\$2
(Since the back of this card is marked, you will know where it is when shuffling, and can put it where you want).

You already weren't buying it. To maintain the old functionality, it would be something silly like

\$2
Before shuffling cards that include this, set this aside, look at any cards not being shuffled but about to be seen, and after shuffling, put this anywhere in the shuffled cards.
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Jeebus

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2017, 01:42:07 pm »
0

DG, what you're misunderstanding is that "look through your remaining deck" means to look at the front of the cards remaining in your deck. This is to conserve the functionality that Stash had under the old shuffle rule. You would actually get to see the front of the cards that you drew before shuffling and deciding where to place Stash.

DG

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2017, 01:48:00 pm »
0

Ok true. Donald X. has intervened so I'll let him handle it!
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werothegreat

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2017, 01:49:24 pm »
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Inn: doesn't matter because you're not shuffling Stash, which is what causes the trigger

Annex: there is no "remaining deck" because your entire deck is being shuffled.

also, the wiki FAQ is outdated because 2nd edition Stash never got a new FAQ (nor did any of the other promos)
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Jeebus

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2017, 02:23:46 pm »
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Inn: doesn't matter because you're not shuffling Stash, which is what causes the trigger

Annex: there is no "remaining deck" because your entire deck is being shuffled.

You have Stash in your deck. You buy an Inn. You shuffle your deck. It has Stash in it.

Inn, Annex and Donate work in exactly the same way. In all cases there is no "remaining deck". Sure there could be a discard pile, but that is beside the point.

Asper

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2017, 02:48:18 pm »
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DG, what you're misunderstanding is that "look through your remaining deck" means to look at the front of the cards remaining in your deck.

I'm pretty sure that's false and what it means is "look through the cards you'd already have in your hand see if these were still the old shuffling rules".
EDIT: Actually that's pretty much what Donald X said back there.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 02:54:26 pm by Asper »
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Asper

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2017, 02:53:04 pm »
+1

Inn: doesn't matter because you're not shuffling Stash, which is what causes the trigger

I'm pretty sure that's wrong, too. You're shuffling your deck, and therefore Stash. As it still has the other backside, you can put it where you want. To me this is exactly the same case as with Annex, in that you have no "remaining deck".

Jeebus

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2017, 03:18:50 pm »
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DG, what you're misunderstanding is that "look through your remaining deck" means to look at the front of the cards remaining in your deck.

I'm pretty sure that's false and what it means is "look through the cards you'd already have in your hand see if these were still the old shuffling rules".
EDIT: Actually that's pretty much what Donald X said back there.

I'm not sure what point you're making. It's not false. It means to look at the front, not the back, of the cards remaining in your deck. This is true every time you shuffle except for Inn et al. For Inn, it literally says that you can look through your deck before you place Stash in it. I said in the OP that I assume this was not the intention. Donald confirmed that it was not, and that the card would have to be worded differently (and more awkwardly) to prevent this, or alternatively give up on maintaining the old functionality.

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2017, 03:25:29 pm »
0

That's right, Stash can be in your deck (though I'm not sure why you'd put Stash anywhere other than the top).  I was thinking of Stash being in your discard pile when you gained Inn.
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Asper

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2017, 03:52:08 pm »
0

DG, what you're misunderstanding is that "look through your remaining deck" means to look at the front of the cards remaining in your deck.

I'm pretty sure that's false and what it means is "look through the cards you'd already have in your hand see if these were still the old shuffling rules".
EDIT: Actually that's pretty much what Donald X said back there.

I'm not sure what point you're making. It's not false. It means to look at the front, not the back, of the cards remaining in your deck.

Yes. I'm dumb. I wanted to agree to you that it means to look at the face of the cards.

This is true every time you shuffle except for Inn et al. For Inn, it literally says that you can look through your deck before you place Stash in it. I said in the OP that I assume this was not the intention. Donald confirmed that it was not, and that the card would have to be worded differently (and more awkwardly) to prevent this, or alternatively give up on maintaining the old functionality.

I didn't agree to this before, but I understand what you mean now. I'm afraid the definition of "when" is a bit fuzzy, though. For instance, I recall that Donald X once ruled BoM was still Hermit while being discarded. So if "when" does mean "after", that would mean that the Hermit trigger happens when BoM isn't Hermit anymore. So, that would mean it doesn't mean that? It's why for me the two things happen at the same time, so in my head it was sufficient to say "the remaining deck" is disjunct from "the shuffled cards", because you're still shuffling when doing that thing with Stash. But yeah, I get your point now.

singletee

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2017, 03:57:12 pm »
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That's right, Stash can be in your deck (though I'm not sure why you'd put Stash anywhere other than the top).  I was thinking of Stash being in your discard pile when you gained Inn.

If you're using Stash as payload for your engine, you want to bottomdeck it. The problem is of course that Stash is not very good engine payload. I did play a game once where I built a Scrying Pool engine and used Stash as part of the payload since there were no better options and Gold/Silver would gum up the engine.
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Watno

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2017, 04:31:25 pm »
+1

That's right, Stash can be in your deck (though I'm not sure why you'd put Stash anywhere other than the top).  I was thinking of Stash being in your discard pile when you gained Inn.

If you're using Stash as payload for your engine, you want to bottomdeck it. The problem is of course that Stash is not very good engine payload. I did play a game once where I built a Scrying Pool engine and used Stash as part of the payload since there were no better options and Gold/Silver would gum up the engine.

You can also put Stash into a posittion where you'll draw it for your next hand if you don't need more money on the current turn.

I still really dislike this shuffling rule change by the way.
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Donald X.

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2017, 05:00:53 pm »
+2

I didn't agree to this before, but I understand what you mean now. I'm afraid the definition of "when" is a bit fuzzy, though. For instance, I recall that Donald X once ruled BoM was still Hermit while being discarded. So if "when" does mean "after", that would mean that the Hermit trigger happens when BoM isn't Hermit anymore. So, that would mean it doesn't mean that? It's why for me the two things happen at the same time, so in my head it was sufficient to say "the remaining deck" is disjunct from "the shuffled cards", because you're still shuffling when doing that thing with Stash. But yeah, I get your point now.
The intention is that "when" means "after." I haven't been perfect there though and new Stash has it wrong. Various reactions also cheat there.

Hermit has it fine though; you did discard a Hermit from play, even though when you resolve the ability the BoM has left play and reverted.
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Donald X.

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2017, 05:01:34 pm »
0

I still really dislike this shuffling rule change by the way.
I remain happy with it, even at the cost of messing up Stash.
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Asper

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2017, 05:16:27 pm »
0

I didn't agree to this before, but I understand what you mean now. I'm afraid the definition of "when" is a bit fuzzy, though. For instance, I recall that Donald X once ruled BoM was still Hermit while being discarded. So if "when" does mean "after", that would mean that the Hermit trigger happens when BoM isn't Hermit anymore. So, that would mean it doesn't mean that? It's why for me the two things happen at the same time, so in my head it was sufficient to say "the remaining deck" is disjunct from "the shuffled cards", because you're still shuffling when doing that thing with Stash. But yeah, I get your point now.
The intention is that "when" means "after." I haven't been perfect there though and new Stash has it wrong. Various reactions also cheat there.

Hermit has it fine though; you did discard a Hermit from play, even though when you resolve the ability the BoM has left play and reverted.

Oh. I somehow recalled it so you had to trash a Hermit to gain a Madman. This changes a few things I believed. Thanks.

Jeebus

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2017, 05:56:27 pm »
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Oh. I somehow recalled it so you had to trash a Hermit to gain a Madman. This changes a few things I believed. Thanks.

You don't need to trash it to gain a Madman. For instance if you discard it, then Scheme it, you try to trash it but fail, then gain a Madman.

However, when you discard BoM-as-Hermit (without Scheming it of course), the discard ability triggers, so you resolve it, the whole thing. First you try to trash it and succeed (since it's in discard), then you gain a Madman. The card you ended up trashing was a BoM, but the discard ability had already triggered.

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2017, 07:36:18 pm »
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Inn, Annex and Donate work in exactly the same way. In all cases there is no "remaining deck". Sure there could be a discard pile, but that is beside the point.

Doesn't this solve the apparent rules problem? If there is no "remaining deck" in these cases, then the "look through your remaining deck" instruction does nothing. All you're left with is to place Stash anywhere in the shuffled cards.

Or is the problem that shuffling when your deck runs out of cards is a multi-step process, so immediately after shuffling, the shuffled cards are not in your deck; but when you shuffle due to Inn's instruction, it's a one-step process where the cards are in your deck immediately after shuffling? But is your deck considered your "remaining deck" in that situation?
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Reshuffling
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2017, 08:50:01 pm »
+3

I still really dislike this shuffling rule change by the way.
Heartily agreed.

Fortunately, we can just pretend it's not there. I've taught Dominion to two people since the change and each time I taught the Dominion Classic rule.

I mean, sure, you can shuffle your discards and stick them underneath. I'll often even pre-shuffle my discards and stick them underneath, turned at right angles to my deck in case my discard pile unexpectedly becomes relevant before my next draw.

But those are optimisations. In computer science parlance, you may optimise, provided you "behave as if" you reshuffle when you need a card and your deck is empty. You're not following the rules; you're behaving as if you were following the rules.

If someone asks me how their computer's CPU adds 1 to a byte in memory, I say it loads the byte, feeds it through an adder, then stores it back. At least at first, I don't mention hyper-threading, superscalar dispatch, cache, write buffering and coherence. I feel much the same way about Dominion's reshuffle rule.
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Asper

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2017, 09:04:21 pm »
0

About the new rule, I do like Stash, but it's just one card. It still behaves kind of the same, so it's not too bad. Nonetheless, I kind of agree that the shuffle rule didn't really need fixing. At least I didn't see a reason that was stronger than the best reason to keep the old variant, which was "you'd have to change the rules for that". And well, that reason now applies to the new shuffling rule, so I'm in favor of keeping that now. (I'm still totally ignoring the rule, but I also sometimes pull out Colony and Platinum without the first drawn card being from Prosperity, and the police hasn't been here yet. I guess nobody cares.)

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2017, 09:17:52 pm »
+2

The original shuffle rule didn't work and needed fixing; you can "do the thing with the remaining cards, then shuffle to get the rest" when it's drawing, but not for every conceivable action. So I fixed it! Congrats on a job well done, Donald X.! Keep up the good work! Thanks and I will.
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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2017, 09:40:22 pm »
+3

The original shuffle rule didn't work and needed fixing; you can "do the thing with the remaining cards, then shuffle to get the rest" when it's drawing, but not for every conceivable action. So I fixed it! Congrats on a job well done, Donald X.! Keep up the good work! Thanks and I will.

I don't particularly care one way or another, and I apologize if this has been answered before, but can you give an example where an action would not work with the previous shuffling rule?
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Jeebus

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2017, 12:15:02 am »
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Doesn't this solve the apparent rules problem? If there is no "remaining deck" in these cases, then the "look through your remaining deck" instruction does nothing. All you're left with is to place Stash anywhere in the shuffled cards.

Well, I guess.

I would interpret "remaining" as just a clarifying word, not a functional qualifier, just like "another" on Port. "Gain another Port" also works when you buy an Inherited Estate, even though technically there's no "other" Port in that case. So the meaning is always, "gain a Port". "Another" has no functional importance.

Likewise, in all normal circumstances, Stash works like just, "look through your deck", "remaining" having no functional importance. However, since it is supposed to work differently with Inn, saying that "remaining deck" is a functional description does actually get us there.

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2017, 03:30:41 pm »
+1

I don't particularly care one way or another, and I apologize if this has been answered before, but can you give an example where an action would not work with the previous shuffling rule?
In games with published cards, the only issues are confusing people when the things you do with the cards are more involved (e.g. Lookout), and people forgetting how many cards they've drawn for that Smithy. Those are both significant issues so I am glad to have addressed them.

It is easy to make an unpublished card that creates issues, and you can argue in each case "oh but instead that could say, set aside the top 3 cards, then do this thing." You still have confusion because it isn't clear to everyone that you shuffle to finish doing the setting aside before continuing. It's not great otherwise.

You can also say, "okay that unpublished card doesn't do what you intended sometimes, but you can still resolve it, therefore no problem." If you say that, I disagree.

The game did not start out having much "When x happens, do y." It has a bunch of it now. If you have some more complex command for multiple cards, something may trigger off of it; thus all sorts of things can happen in the middle. For example there was an attack that could trash the top 2 cards of everyone else's deck (somehow it did not survive). But things trigger on trashing; they'd happen for the first card before you shuffled.
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Jeebus

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #30 on: September 15, 2017, 06:10:27 pm »
0

I see that for instance with Lookout, the new rule creates less confusion. Before you had to know that the revealed cards are not in your deck.

But I just want to note that you still have to know that you shuffle to finish setting aside or revealing, because of Library and digging cards like Fortune Teller or Hunting Party. And also, at least one card, Golem, still makes it necessary to know that revealed cards are not in your deck.

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2017, 09:41:35 pm »
+6

Since Stash has changed, would you mind if we got an updated official FAQ?  I can try my hand at it, if you like:

This is a Treasure worth .  When you're shuffling, and Stash is one of the cards you're shuffling, you can put it anywhere in your deck.  You can't look at the fronts of the cards you're shuffling; Stash has a different card back so you know where it is.  If you have multiple copies of Stash, you can clump them together, or spread them out however you want.  If there are any cards in your deck that aren't being shuffled, such as when you had fewer than 5 cards left in your deck when you needed to draw a new hand for next turn, you can look through those remaining cards before putting them on top of your newly shuffled deck, though you can't put Stash in among those remaining cards.  If a card tells you to shuffle your entire deck, like Inn (from Dominion: Hinterlands), and Stash is in your deck, there is no "remaining deck" that isn't being shuffled, so you don't get to look at the front of any cards.  If Stash is in your discard pile when this happens, it's not being shuffled, so just shuffle normally.  Because Stash has a different back, you'll be able to tell when it's in other players' hands, or set aside for a Haven (from Dominion: Seaside), and so on.
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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2017, 12:13:43 am »
+2

Since Stash has changed, would you mind if we got an updated official FAQ?  I can try my hand at it, if you like:

This is a Treasure worth .  When you're shuffling, and Stash is one of the cards you're shuffling, you can put it anywhere in your deck.  You can't look at the fronts of the cards you're shuffling; Stash has a different card back so you know where it is.  If you have multiple copies of Stash, you can clump them together, or spread them out however you want.  If there are any cards in your deck that aren't being shuffled, such as when you had fewer than 5 cards left in your deck when you needed to draw a new hand for next turn, you can look through those remaining cards before putting them on top of your newly shuffled deck, though you can't put Stash in among those remaining cards.  If a card tells you to shuffle your entire deck, like Inn (from Dominion: Hinterlands), and Stash is in your deck, there is no "remaining deck" that isn't being shuffled, so you don't get to look at the front of any cards.  If Stash is in your discard pile when this happens, it's not being shuffled, so just shuffle normally.  Because Stash has a different back, you'll be able to tell when it's in other players' hands, or set aside for a Haven (from Dominion: Seaside), and so on.
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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2017, 10:42:55 am »
0

If there are any cards in your deck that aren't being shuffled, such as when you had fewer than 5 cards left in your deck when you needed to draw a new hand for next turn, you can look through those remaining cards before putting them on top of your newly shuffled deck, though you can't put Stash in among those remaining cards.

It says to look through the remaining deck before adding the shuffled cards, but it should say to do it before placing Stash. As is the principal meaning of looking through it gets lost.

If a card tells you to shuffle your entire deck, like Inn (from Dominion: Hinterlands), and Stash is in your deck, there is no "remaining deck" that isn't being shuffled, so you don't get to look at the front of any cards. If Stash is in your discard pile when this happens, it's not being shuffled, so just shuffle normally.

The second sentence doesn't seem to clarify anything. I mean, what could you do that isn't "shuffling normally"? Look at the front of the cards? That was already addressed in the first sentence.

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #34 on: September 18, 2017, 10:52:22 am »
0

If there are any cards in your deck that aren't being shuffled, such as when you had fewer than 5 cards left in your deck when you needed to draw a new hand for next turn, you can look through those remaining cards before putting them on top of your newly shuffled deck, though you can't put Stash in among those remaining cards.

It says to look through the remaining deck before adding the shuffled cards, but it should say to do it before placing Stash. As is the principal meaning of looking through it gets lost.

If a card tells you to shuffle your entire deck, like Inn (from Dominion: Hinterlands), and Stash is in your deck, there is no "remaining deck" that isn't being shuffled, so you don't get to look at the front of any cards. If Stash is in your discard pile when this happens, it's not being shuffled, so just shuffle normally.

The second sentence doesn't seem to clarify anything. I mean, what could you do that isn't "shuffling normally"? Look at the front of the cards? That was already addressed in the first sentence.

How about: "If there are any cards in your deck that aren't being shuffled, such as when you had fewer than 5 cards left in your deck when you needed to draw a new hand for next turn, you can look through those remaining cards before you place Stash, though you can't put Stash in among those remaining cards.  Put the remaining cards back on top once you finish shuffling."

And I'd think it would be obvious that "shuffle normally" means "shuffle like you would if Stash weren't a thing".
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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #35 on: September 18, 2017, 11:04:21 am »
0

How about: "If there are any cards in your deck that aren't being shuffled, such as when you had fewer than 5 cards left in your deck when you needed to draw a new hand for next turn, you can look through those remaining cards before you place Stash, though you can't put Stash in among those remaining cards.  Put the remaining cards back on top once you finish shuffling."

And I'd think it would be obvious that "shuffle normally" means "shuffle like you would if Stash weren't a thing".

The first one seems fine. (Although the word "back" is confusing, I think, since you're not putting anything back. I would write, "Add the shuffled cards to the bottom of your deck," which is more in line with the rulebook.)

I know that's what "shuffle normally" means, but that wasn't my point. What is the sentence clarifying? What could you do that isn't "shuffling normally"? Look at the front of the cards? That was already addressed in the first sentence.

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #36 on: September 18, 2017, 11:09:42 am »
+1

What you might do that isn't "shuffling normally" is fish the Stashes out of your discard pile and shuffle them into your deck.
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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #37 on: September 18, 2017, 11:15:21 am »
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What you might do that isn't "shuffling normally" is fish the Stashes out of your discard pile and shuffle them into your deck.

That is true. But I thought that was so obvious that it creates more confusion to even mention. It's also true in all other cases where you have Stash in your discard pile, not just with Inn.

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #38 on: September 18, 2017, 11:17:45 am »
+1

What you might do that isn't "shuffling normally" is fish the Stashes out of your discard pile and shuffle them into your deck.

That is true. But I thought that was so obvious that it creates more confusion to even mention. It's also true in all other cases where you have Stash in your discard pile, not just with Inn.

But most times when you shuffle, you're shuffling your discard pile.  The specific exceptions to this are effects like Inn's.
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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #39 on: September 18, 2017, 11:35:05 am »
0

What you might do that isn't "shuffling normally" is fish the Stashes out of your discard pile and shuffle them into your deck.

That is true. But I thought that was so obvious that it creates more confusion to even mention. It's also true in all other cases where you have Stash in your discard pile, not just with Inn.

But most times when you shuffle, you're shuffling your discard pile.  The specific exceptions to this are effects like Inn's.

Right, true.
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