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Author Topic: New Stash + Inn  (Read 875 times)

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Jeebus

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New Stash + Inn
« on: September 14, 2017, 10:36:06 am »
+2

As I'm looking more closely on Stash, I think the new text is a bit confusing. Of course I know how it's supposed to work: You get to look at the remaining cards in your deck, meaning the cards you're not shuffling, before placing Stash. A player has to know about the new shuffling rule for this text to make any sense of course, and even then it has caused some confusion. But I wonder if it's even technically correct.

When shuffling this, you may look through your remaining deck, and may put this anywhere in the shuffled cards.

Usually, "when" means "after", so "when shuffling this" should mean after you've shuffled. ("Shuffling" must refer to just actually shuffling, so before you add the shuffled cards to your deck.) So, after shuffling your discard pile, you may look through your deck, and then you fish out Stash and place it anywhere in the shuffled cards. Then you add those cards to your deck. This works fine.

But what about Inn, Annex and Donate, where you actually shuffle your deck? You are told to shuffle some cards into your deck. So you first add those cards to your deck, then you shuffle your deck. This is different from the normal shuffling, because normally the cards you shuffle are not in your deck. Going by the above, Stash now lets you look through your deck after you've shuffled it, and then lets you place Stash with complete knowledge. I assume this is not intended?

We could assume that the meaning is rather "when you would shuffle this". So the first thing you do is always look through your deck, before shuffling. But you don't do the next instruction until after you've shuffled (which is clearly indicated by "in the shuffled cards"). So the interpretation is something like: When you would shuffle this, you may look through your remaining deck, and then after shuffling, you may put this anywhere in the shuffled cards.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 10:37:26 am by Jeebus »
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Asper

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2017, 11:06:14 am »
+1

Right... I guess normally, when you trigger a reshuffle with e.g. Smithy, "the remaining deck" are cards that would go into your hand, so it's fine. Here it isn't, because you now get to look through cards that are not going to end up on your hand. I don't think it means that you can stack your deck on buying Inn for Stash games, but the fact that you can look through it is bad enough. Ouch.

EDIT: Also, your reasoning seems logical to me. You should be able to stack Stash with full knowledge. It looks like a blooper to me.

DG

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2017, 11:48:00 am »
0

As I'm looking more closely on Stash, I think the new text is a bit confusing. Of course I know how it's supposed to work: You get to look at the remaining cards in your deck, meaning the cards you're not shuffling, before placing Stash.

No I think you're misinterpreting this already. Let's take the Wiki shuffling example.

Wiki - You play a smithy and need to draw 3 cards. However, you only have 2 cards in your (draw) Deck (and some other cards in your discard pile). In this case, you would reshuffle your discard pile, put it face down under the 2 cards in your deck, then you would pick up the 3 cards cards you need from your new deck (the 2 old cards and the top of the shuffled cards). You would not draw 2 cards first and then reshuffle and then take the top card of the new deck (though this makes no practical difference except with Stash.

So here you shuffle (randomize) the discard pile, put those cards under the 2 cards of the old draw deck to make a new draw deck, look through the backs of new draw deck, and put Stash anywhere in the shuffled cards (anywhere from 3rd to bottom). The practical difference with Stash under the new shuffle rules is that you can still see all the cards in the draw deck (old and new) but you can't put stash among the old cards.

All the stuff about "when" meaning "after" is a red herring as this is all part of the shuffling process. I see no problem with donate, inn, or annex.
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Jeebus

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2017, 12:18:11 pm »
0

As I'm looking more closely on Stash, I think the new text is a bit confusing. Of course I know how it's supposed to work: You get to look at the remaining cards in your deck, meaning the cards you're not shuffling, before placing Stash.

No I think you're misinterpreting this already. Let's take the Wiki shuffling example.

Wiki - You play a smithy and need to draw 3 cards. However, you only have 2 cards in your (draw) Deck (and some other cards in your discard pile). In this case, you would reshuffle your discard pile, put it face down under the 2 cards in your deck, then you would pick up the 3 cards cards you need from your new deck (the 2 old cards and the top of the shuffled cards). You would not draw 2 cards first and then reshuffle and then take the top card of the new deck (though this makes no practical difference except with Stash.

So here you shuffle (randomize) the discard pile, put those cards under the 2 cards of the old draw deck to make a new draw deck, look through the backs of new draw deck, and put Stash anywhere in the shuffled cards (anywhere from 3rd to bottom). The practical difference with Stash under the new shuffle rules is that you can still see all the cards in the draw deck (old and new) but you can't put stash among the old cards.

No, you could never put Stash among the old cards. With the old shuffle rule, you would draw the old cards first. Obviously you could not place Stash among the cards in your hand. Also, you can't and could never see all the cards in the draw deck. You realize that this is about seeing the front of the cards, right?

In your explanation you're missing the part of new Stash that says that you may look through your deck. The wiki is not entirely correct, because it should say, "this makes no practical difference except with the 1st edition of Stash". The new shuffle rule changed old Stash so that you would not get to see the remaining cards in your deck before you place Stash. That's why Donald changed Stash so that you specifically get to see those cards.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 02:25:27 pm by Jeebus »
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Asper

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2017, 12:21:48 pm »
0

I think Jeebus and I had different issues with the new wording.

Mine was that I understood it so that if you shuffle your deck (not the discard pile, which I always understood was the cards you shuffle), the cards you shuffle and the remaining deck were the same. So, you'd be able to look through your deck when shuffeling it. However, thinking about it again, I take back my comment. If you define "remaining deck" to mean the cards you are NOT currently shuffling (whether or not they are your deck or what have you), everything is as it's supposed to be.

Jeebus

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2017, 12:32:15 pm »
0

I think Jeebus and I had different issues with the new wording.

Mine was that I understood it so that if you shuffle your deck (not the discard pile, which I always understood was the cards you shuffle), the cards you shuffle and the remaining deck were the same. So, you'd be able to look through your deck when shuffeling it. However, thinking about it again, I take back my comment. If you define "remaining deck" to mean the cards you are NOT currently shuffling (whether or not they are your deck or what have you), everything is as it's supposed to be.

When you shuffle your discard pile (which is how you shuffle normally), these cards are not in your deck yet. That's how you can look through the remaining cards in your deck. In this case the remaining deck is the cards you're not shuffling, not per definition, it just is.

With Inn you don't shuffle your discard pile, you shuffle your deck.

DG

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2017, 01:34:37 pm »
0

No, you could never put Stash among the old cards. With the old shuffle rule, you would draw the old cards first. Obviously you could not place Stash among the cards in your hand. Also, you can't and could never see all the cards in the draw deck. You realize that this is about seeing the front of the cards, right?

I never said you could put stash among the old cards. The practical difference was that with the old shuffle rules there was never was an old draw deck when you played a smithy. You drew the last two cards, shuffled the discards into a new draw deck, looked at the back of the cards, placed the stash anywhere in the deck, drew the third card.

From the Wiki.
Official FAQ
  • Stash is a Treasure that produces Coin2.png when played, like Silver.
  • Whenever you shuffle your deck, you can choose where in your deck each copy of Stash that you have goes.
  • You can't look at the fronts of the other cards in your deck to see where to put it; Stash itself has a different card back, so that's how you'll know where it is.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 01:43:12 pm by DG »
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Donald X.

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2017, 01:37:58 pm »
+4

When shuffling this, you may look through your remaining deck, and may put this anywhere in the shuffled cards.

Usually, "when" means "after", so "when shuffling this" should mean after you've shuffled. ("Shuffling" must refer to just actually shuffling, so before you add the shuffled cards to your deck.) So, after shuffling your discard pile, you may look through your deck, and then you fish out Stash and place it anywhere in the shuffled cards. Then you add those cards to your deck. This works fine.
You are correct that it is not technically accurate. Ideally I would have just given up on maintaining exact functionality, and said,

$2
(Since the back of this card is marked, you will know where it is when shuffling, and can put it where you want).

You already weren't buying it. To maintain the old functionality, it would be something silly like

$2
Before shuffling cards that include this, set this aside, look at any cards not being shuffled but about to be seen, and after shuffling, put this anywhere in the shuffled cards.
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Jeebus

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2017, 01:42:07 pm »
0

DG, what you're misunderstanding is that "look through your remaining deck" means to look at the front of the cards remaining in your deck. This is to conserve the functionality that Stash had under the old shuffle rule. You would actually get to see the front of the cards that you drew before shuffling and deciding where to place Stash.

DG

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2017, 01:48:00 pm »
0

Ok true. Donald X. has intervened so I'll let him handle it!
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werothegreat

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2017, 01:49:24 pm »
0

Inn: doesn't matter because you're not shuffling Stash, which is what causes the trigger

Annex: there is no "remaining deck" because your entire deck is being shuffled.

also, the wiki FAQ is outdated because 2nd edition Stash never got a new FAQ (nor did any of the other promos)
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Jeebus

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2017, 02:23:46 pm »
0

Inn: doesn't matter because you're not shuffling Stash, which is what causes the trigger

Annex: there is no "remaining deck" because your entire deck is being shuffled.

You have Stash in your deck. You buy an Inn. You shuffle your deck. It has Stash in it.

Inn, Annex and Donate work in exactly the same way. In all cases there is no "remaining deck". Sure there could be a discard pile, but that is beside the point.

Asper

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2017, 02:48:18 pm »
0

DG, what you're misunderstanding is that "look through your remaining deck" means to look at the front of the cards remaining in your deck.

I'm pretty sure that's false and what it means is "look through the cards you'd already have in your hand see if these were still the old shuffling rules".
EDIT: Actually that's pretty much what Donald X said back there.

Asper

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2017, 02:53:04 pm »
+1

Inn: doesn't matter because you're not shuffling Stash, which is what causes the trigger

I'm pretty sure that's wrong, too. You're shuffling your deck, and therefore Stash. As it still has the other backside, you can put it where you want. To me this is exactly the same case as with Annex, in that you have no "remaining deck".

Jeebus

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2017, 03:18:50 pm »
0

DG, what you're misunderstanding is that "look through your remaining deck" means to look at the front of the cards remaining in your deck.

I'm pretty sure that's false and what it means is "look through the cards you'd already have in your hand see if these were still the old shuffling rules".
EDIT: Actually that's pretty much what Donald X said back there.

I'm not sure what point you're making. It's not false. It means to look at the front, not the back, of the cards remaining in your deck. This is true every time you shuffle except for Inn et al. For Inn, it literally says that you can look through your deck before you place Stash in it. I said in the OP that I assume this was not the intention. Donald confirmed that it was not, and that the card would have to be worded differently (and more awkwardly) to prevent this, or alternatively give up on maintaining the old functionality.

werothegreat

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2017, 03:25:29 pm »
0

That's right, Stash can be in your deck (though I'm not sure why you'd put Stash anywhere other than the top).  I was thinking of Stash being in your discard pile when you gained Inn.
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Asper

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2017, 03:52:08 pm »
0

DG, what you're misunderstanding is that "look through your remaining deck" means to look at the front of the cards remaining in your deck.

I'm pretty sure that's false and what it means is "look through the cards you'd already have in your hand see if these were still the old shuffling rules".
EDIT: Actually that's pretty much what Donald X said back there.

I'm not sure what point you're making. It's not false. It means to look at the front, not the back, of the cards remaining in your deck.

Yes. I'm dumb. I wanted to agree to you that it means to look at the face of the cards.

This is true every time you shuffle except for Inn et al. For Inn, it literally says that you can look through your deck before you place Stash in it. I said in the OP that I assume this was not the intention. Donald confirmed that it was not, and that the card would have to be worded differently (and more awkwardly) to prevent this, or alternatively give up on maintaining the old functionality.

I didn't agree to this before, but I understand what you mean now. I'm afraid the definition of "when" is a bit fuzzy, though. For instance, I recall that Donald X once ruled BoM was still Hermit while being discarded. So if "when" does mean "after", that would mean that the Hermit trigger happens when BoM isn't Hermit anymore. So, that would mean it doesn't mean that? It's why for me the two things happen at the same time, so in my head it was sufficient to say "the remaining deck" is disjunct from "the shuffled cards", because you're still shuffling when doing that thing with Stash. But yeah, I get your point now.

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2017, 03:57:12 pm »
0

That's right, Stash can be in your deck (though I'm not sure why you'd put Stash anywhere other than the top).  I was thinking of Stash being in your discard pile when you gained Inn.

If you're using Stash as payload for your engine, you want to bottomdeck it. The problem is of course that Stash is not very good engine payload. I did play a game once where I built a Scrying Pool engine and used Stash as part of the payload since there were no better options and Gold/Silver would gum up the engine.

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2017, 04:31:25 pm »
+1

That's right, Stash can be in your deck (though I'm not sure why you'd put Stash anywhere other than the top).  I was thinking of Stash being in your discard pile when you gained Inn.

If you're using Stash as payload for your engine, you want to bottomdeck it. The problem is of course that Stash is not very good engine payload. I did play a game once where I built a Scrying Pool engine and used Stash as part of the payload since there were no better options and Gold/Silver would gum up the engine.

You can also put Stash into a posittion where you'll draw it for your next hand if you don't need more money on the current turn.

I still really dislike this shuffling rule change by the way.
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Donald X.

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2017, 05:00:53 pm »
+2

I didn't agree to this before, but I understand what you mean now. I'm afraid the definition of "when" is a bit fuzzy, though. For instance, I recall that Donald X once ruled BoM was still Hermit while being discarded. So if "when" does mean "after", that would mean that the Hermit trigger happens when BoM isn't Hermit anymore. So, that would mean it doesn't mean that? It's why for me the two things happen at the same time, so in my head it was sufficient to say "the remaining deck" is disjunct from "the shuffled cards", because you're still shuffling when doing that thing with Stash. But yeah, I get your point now.
The intention is that "when" means "after." I haven't been perfect there though and new Stash has it wrong. Various reactions also cheat there.

Hermit has it fine though; you did discard a Hermit from play, even though when you resolve the ability the BoM has left play and reverted.
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Donald X.

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2017, 05:01:34 pm »
0

I still really dislike this shuffling rule change by the way.
I remain happy with it, even at the cost of messing up Stash.
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Asper

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2017, 05:16:27 pm »
0

I didn't agree to this before, but I understand what you mean now. I'm afraid the definition of "when" is a bit fuzzy, though. For instance, I recall that Donald X once ruled BoM was still Hermit while being discarded. So if "when" does mean "after", that would mean that the Hermit trigger happens when BoM isn't Hermit anymore. So, that would mean it doesn't mean that? It's why for me the two things happen at the same time, so in my head it was sufficient to say "the remaining deck" is disjunct from "the shuffled cards", because you're still shuffling when doing that thing with Stash. But yeah, I get your point now.
The intention is that "when" means "after." I haven't been perfect there though and new Stash has it wrong. Various reactions also cheat there.

Hermit has it fine though; you did discard a Hermit from play, even though when you resolve the ability the BoM has left play and reverted.

Oh. I somehow recalled it so you had to trash a Hermit to gain a Madman. This changes a few things I believed. Thanks.

Jeebus

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2017, 05:56:27 pm »
0

Oh. I somehow recalled it so you had to trash a Hermit to gain a Madman. This changes a few things I believed. Thanks.

You don't need to trash it to gain a Madman. For instance if you discard it, then Scheme it, you try to trash it but fail, then gain a Madman.

However, when you discard BoM-as-Hermit (without Scheming it of course), the discard ability triggers, so you resolve it, the whole thing. First you try to trash it and succeed (since it's in discard), then you gain a Madman. The card you ended up trashing was a BoM, but the discard ability had already triggered.

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Re: New Stash + Inn
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2017, 07:36:18 pm »
0

Inn, Annex and Donate work in exactly the same way. In all cases there is no "remaining deck". Sure there could be a discard pile, but that is beside the point.

Doesn't this solve the apparent rules problem? If there is no "remaining deck" in these cases, then the "look through your remaining deck" instruction does nothing. All you're left with is to place Stash anywhere in the shuffled cards.

Or is the problem that shuffling when your deck runs out of cards is a multi-step process, so immediately after shuffling, the shuffled cards are not in your deck; but when you shuffle due to Inn's instruction, it's a one-step process where the cards are in your deck immediately after shuffling? But is your deck considered your "remaining deck" in that situation?
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Reshuffling
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2017, 08:50:01 pm »
+3

I still really dislike this shuffling rule change by the way.
Heartily agreed.

Fortunately, we can just pretend it's not there. I've taught Dominion to two people since the change and each time I taught the Dominion Classic rule.

I mean, sure, you can shuffle your discards and stick them underneath. I'll often even pre-shuffle my discards and stick them underneath, turned at right angles to my deck in case my discard pile unexpectedly becomes relevant before my next draw.

But those are optimisations. In computer science parlance, you may optimise, provided you "behave as if" you reshuffle when you need a card and your deck is empty. You're not following the rules; you're behaving as if you were following the rules.

If someone asks me how their computer's CPU adds 1 to a byte in memory, I say it loads the byte, feeds it through an adder, then stores it back. At least at first, I don't mention hyper-threading, superscalar dispatch, cache, write buffering and coherence. I feel much the same way about Dominion's reshuffle rule.
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