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Author Topic: Which Removed Cards Do You Use IRL?  (Read 8501 times)

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jonaskoelker

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Re: Which Removed Cards Do You Use IRL?
« Reply #25 on: December 30, 2017, 06:45:36 pm »
+3

I only own second edition, but I'm familiar with the removed cards from watching Dominion videos. This means I can't really answer the question as stated, but I can answer a related question: "which cards, if any, are you sad about not getting to play with?"

My generic answer is "any card with a unique ability".

Messenger, Nomad Camp and Scavenger replace Woodcutter and Chancellor just fine; I don't miss any of those. Scrying Pool has the Spy attack. Adventurer, meh, usually Smithy does the same job better.

I've used Feast and Thief in puzzles, but they're fully available in that context. I don't think I'm missing out on anything but not being able to play them in real games. Bandit is a fine replacement for Thief, and while Feast isn't exactly replaced by Artisan or Altar because you can't open with them, I still don't really feel like I'm missing out.

Mill replaces Great Hall perfectly and Patrol replaces Scout except as the butt of jokes—and in that context, Scout is a favorite of mint.

I think Secret Chamber has something unique—a reaction that interacts interestingly with top-of-deck attacks, e.g. Thief, Swindler, Knights, even Ghost Ship. But the on-play ability is sufficiently weak that you rarely go for it, so the thing that's lost wasn't very much there to begin with. And the effect, meh, okay, it's no huge deal. I don't think I'll miss it.

Next up on the scale of interest level is Tribute. It does something unique, though the thing it does is sufficiently unreliable that I would hesitate to build my deck around it. As the only village in an engine mirror, it has the interesting characteristic that my greening makes your deck less reliable. Eh, you know, I think it's more fun playing an engine with a reliable village. It had something unique, but of low value.

Penultimately there is Saboteur. "Swingy and often not great" sums up my impression quite well, but on some boards it can decide the game. Something of moderate value might be lost here. I'm very much open the possibility that I would think something else if I had actually played with it.

Lastly, Coppersmith. I think it only plays in engines, and I would typically rather trash my Copper and buy Gold than make my Copper worth more. But if you can't trash your Copper yet you can still build a viable engine, Coppersmith is a terminal +$7. That's more than Platinum, for $4. And it can be throned. That's pretty cool.

So out of the 12 removed cards, I think I'm missing out on two of them, and the value of those two cards is highly contextual and kingdom-sensitive, and I'm not going to buy 1E just for those two cards and the smaller font and the 'he' over 'they', and I'm not going to buy both 1E and 2E, so... I'm happy with my decision, even though it's only almost strictly better.
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PickleMendip

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Re: Which Removed Cards Do You Use IRL?
« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2018, 06:39:48 am »
0

Hi all, I would like to share my findings since the 2nd Ed.

I recently managed to buy 1st Ed dominion & intrigue, and already had the 2nd ed update packs. I find the combos of cards "removed" and new "replacements" actually work in fun weird ways.

So last night, I had a game with Secret Chamber and Diplomat, with attacks Saboteur and Replace. That led to a lot of card-shifting craziness. React with SC, then draw Diplomat, resolve SC's reaction, then react with Diplomat. It actually worked as a semi-strategy. Also Coppersmith was in play, but after it outlived its initial usefulness, we both had problems trying to trash it with Replace and never getting that combo, despite Secret Passage and Nobles for card draw. I still don't think it's a bad card, just one that has only early game utility.

Also, last week i was teaching some new players, and decided to use Bureaucrat and Spy, as well as Moat, to teach them the mechanics of attacks and reactions while using relatively weak attacks. I also threw in Merchant for good measure because it pairs well with Bureaucrat.

I just don't like the idea of completely removing cards, even if they are weak. Everyone was a beginner once, and even Woodcutter and Feast can shine in some circumstances.
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Simon Jester

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Re: Which Removed Cards Do You Use IRL?
« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2018, 10:46:15 am »
+2

 My best Dominion-friend who don't follow "the scene" anymore didn't understand why I cringed when coppersmith showed up last time we played. "It's retired actually" didn't make any sense to him and actually I agree more and more. Most of them didn't have to go, the new cards do their thing better but eh, a side from Scout they still function good enough to shine whenever possible. Can we bare Transmute we can bare the retired folks..

I really miss Great Hall. I just do. Mill is.. too fancy. I must admit Courier is awesome in a way Tribute never was but I miss it still from time to time. Agree though that Spy wasn't just bad but also extremely annoying, other than that I wish the cards could return to Dominion Online in some way or another.
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jonaskoelker

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Re: Which Removed Cards Do You Use IRL?
« Reply #28 on: April 07, 2018, 02:20:55 pm »
+1

I wish the cards could return to Dominion Online in some way or another.
I don't play online, but if I were to I would definitely like to have those cards available. Make it default-off opt-in, put a big warning message in front of the cards saying "these cards suck, you should only use them for reasons of nostalgia" or whatever, but man, why not make them available? I get that implementing new cards is work, but I recall Stef saying that most cards from... uh, some recent expansion, was simply transcribing the text on the cards into whatever framework they've built.

I don't think the removed cards interact with players' decks or other cards or the rules in weird ways, the ways Possession and Inheritance and Stash do.
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jonaskoelker

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Re: Which Removed Cards Do You Use IRL?
« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2018, 02:49:49 pm »
0

Speaking of Coppersmith being the star of the show (with the aid of some good draw and +buy):

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Oyvind

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Re: Which Removed Cards Do You Use IRL?
« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2018, 04:24:11 pm »
0

I use them all, but not with the newer sets. With real newbs and/or children, I play with the complete Norwegian collection (Dominion 1st ed., Intrigue 1st ed., Prosperity, Governor, Stash, Walled Village). The card pool is so small that I wouldn’t remove 2/13 of them. When I play with gamers or in my regular Dominion groups, I play with all my English cards, which includes all promos and every set, but only the 2nd ed. versions of Dominion and Intrigue (297 kingdom cards). This allows me to play with all published cards from time to time. At work I play with a third card pool. There we use the 1st editions, but we use the update packs (and we’ve removed the infamous 12).
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Which Removed Cards Do You Use IRL?
« Reply #31 on: April 08, 2018, 12:56:41 pm »
+1

The only card I really miss is Coppersmith. That card was actually interesting, and not only because of its unique ability. I really liked how it could be useful, but not in the way you initially think. When you first see it, you go "my opening Coppers become Silvers? I'm getting that right away!" But then you realize that it actually totally sucks in the beginning because it takes up space in your hand and doesn't produce any $ by itself. And then you discover when you should get it: When you don't trash your Coppers for whatever reason, but can still draw your whole deck. And then it becomes a powerhouse, and really satisfying to use.

I guess I sort of miss Woodcutter, only because cutting it meant losing a source of +Buy. In general a terminal Silver with a Buy just seemed like a basic concept that had to exist. In the end, though, you only ever bought it if there was no other +Buy, and then you bought it grudgingly. I guess that's enough to make it not worthy of existence.
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ackmondual

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Re: Which Removed Cards Do You Use IRL?
« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2018, 09:19:45 pm »
+1

The only card I really miss is Coppersmith. That card was actually interesting, and not only because of its unique ability. I really liked how it could be useful, but not in the way you initially think. When you first see it, you go "my opening Coppers become Silvers? I'm getting that right away!" But then you realize that it actually totally sucks in the beginning because it takes up space in your hand and doesn't produce any $ by itself. And then you discover when you should get it: When you don't trash your Coppers for whatever reason, but can still draw your whole deck. And then it becomes a powerhouse, and really satisfying to use.
If nothing else, it was still satisfying for us to observe, and those doing it... Coppersmith, then play 4 Coppers, for a Province.
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Willvon

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Re: Which Removed Cards Do You Use IRL?
« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2018, 11:38:09 pm »
0

I continue to use all of them. I have all of the expansions and base, and I use the randomizers to gradually go through all of the cards. These may not be the greatest cards, but they are still Dominion cards. That makes them valuable to me. 

Sometimes they get bought and sometimes they don’t, but that is true of many cards based on what the other cards are in the kingdom.  So I don’t mind seeing them in a game. In fact, the only one that rarely if ever gets bought in our games is Saboteur. Attacks have their place in Dominion, but we really don’t care for that one.
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jonaskoelker

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Re: Which Removed Cards Do You Use IRL?
« Reply #34 on: April 10, 2018, 12:41:34 pm »
+1

I've been coming back to this thread and re-reading my post.

[TL;DR: I like Coppersmith, maybe Saboteur, a teensy tiny bit Tribute and Secret Chamber but very meh...]
Locusts provides roughly the same attack as Saboteur. You can't steer the Hex deck really well so you can't build a strategy around it, but it does let you anti-Rebuild your opponent's Provinces.

Also, hey, there's Giant which just trashes almost the same set of cards, and there's Swindler which turns cards into worse cards, and with Highway and Giant you can still trash Provinces.

So I'm totally not going to feel sad that I don't get to play with Saboteur; the similar-enough replacements are there.

Also, Counting House makes your coppers better, though in a different way and in different situations than Coppersmith. Bank makes your coppers better just as well as Coppersmith, although it also makes all your other treasures worth $1 more each (effectively). You can King's Court your Coppersmiths where you can only Crown your Banks, but you'll have a tough time finding that I care about that difference. Bank doesn't say "the meek shall inherit the earth" or whatever the same way Coppersmith does. Meh.

So I'm down to being sad about approximately 0 out of 12 cards. Only Tribute and Secret Chamber are still even considerations, and... yeah, no, I just don't care.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Which Removed Cards Do You Use IRL?
« Reply #35 on: April 10, 2018, 01:55:34 pm »
+1

Also, Counting House makes your coppers better, though in a different way and in different situations than Coppersmith. Bank makes your coppers better just as well as Coppersmith, although it also makes all your other treasures worth $1 more each (effectively). You can King's Court your Coppersmiths where you can only Crown your Banks, but you'll have a tough time finding that I care about that difference. Bank doesn't say "the meek shall inherit the earth" or whatever the same way Coppersmith does. Meh.

So I'm down to being sad about approximately 0 out of 12 cards. Only Tribute and Secret Chamber are still even considerations, and... yeah, no, I just don't care.

Wow, you're totally right about Bank; I hadn't even thought of that. That definitely makes me feel better about losing Coppersmith.

Storeroom is a perfect replacement for Secret Chamber, so I don't care about that.

Tribute was unique, but I never found it fun anyway.

Actually I think the one card I'm finding myself missing now is Thief. Bandit just trashes instead of outright stealing, so it doesn't feel the same. Noble Brigand steals, but only Silvers and Golds which is boring. What made Thief cool was the tiny fraction of games where there were alt-treasures worth stealing. Rogue can steal anything, but it does so slowly and often doesn't work, so, yeah, Thief was special.
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AJD

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Re: Which Removed Cards Do You Use IRL?
« Reply #36 on: April 10, 2018, 02:06:33 pm »
+4

Storeroom is a perfect replacement for Secret Chamber, so I don't care about that.

I disagree about Secret Chamber! The fun part about Secret Chamber is using it to stymie an opponent's Swindler (or Knight, etc.); none of the replacements replicate that.
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werothegreat

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Re: Which Removed Cards Do You Use IRL?
« Reply #37 on: April 10, 2018, 02:08:25 pm »
0

Woodcutter - weak as hell
Chancellor - weak as hell
* Without these two cards, the top part of Messenger could have easily cost on its own and it would have been fine.
Feast - garbage
Spy - analysis-paralysis garbage
Thief - garbage apart from 4-player Gardens games
Adventurer - hot garbage

Secret Chamber - garbage
Great Hall - pointless, really
Coppersmith - like, okay? but not really doing much, honestly
Scout - garbage
Saboteur - weak and not fun to be on the receiving end of
Tribute - swingy garbage

Yeah, I don't miss any of these.
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jonaskoelker

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Re: Which Removed Cards Do You Use IRL?
« Reply #38 on: April 10, 2018, 03:23:17 pm »
0

Bank makes [...] your other treasures worth $1 more each (effectively).
Wow, you're totally right about Bank.
The on-play ability of Coppersmith is approximately "+$x, where x is the number of Coppers you play later this turn", except you can't determine the value of x when you need to know it. Also, the interactions with Counterfeit and Storyteller are subtly wrong with my phrasing. If you allow an even sloppier approximation, it's "Reveal your hand. +$1 for each Copper revealed".

A crazy comparison just occurs to me: Coppersmith vs. Secret Chamber (or any cards-into-money effect)—in both cases, if you plan to use this as a payload you'll be drawing lots of cards that you either won't play or will play for a very small per-card effect, and that's usually not great; Silver and Gold both offer much greater per-card payload value. The cool thing about Coppersmith that's not true about Secret Chamber is that you can re-use the same card for multiple Coppersmiths but not for multiple Secret Chambers, since you only "reveal" the Copper and don't discard it. (You're then required to play that Copper for the approximation to work, and it's wrong in many ways, but you know, in practice it's pretty close.)

You could phrase Bank as "for the remainder of this turn, when you play a treasure, you first get +". You would want to play it before rather than after your other treasures, and playing a treasure vs. having one in play is slightly different, but it'd be pretty much the same card if done that way.

Likewise, the text of Duke might as well be "Each of your Duchies is worth an additional 1 ". Here it really doesn't matter, since you score all your cards simultaneously—there are no timing problems it could have, and nothing is dependent on the VP value of your cards the way Storyteller is dependent on the money value of your cards.

The general principle is that <X does 1 thing per Y> and <X does 'each Y does 1 more thing'> are equivalent (typically, approximately, [edgecases-edgecaseseverywhere.jpg]).
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