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Titandrake

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Occasionally Relevent Rule Edge-Cases
« on: September 10, 2017, 04:26:11 am »
+22

Sometimes, Dominion rules can get complicated. Most of the time, they don't matter. In a few scenarios, they matter a lot. Those scenarios are overwhelmingly "gotcha" scenarios: they make sense when you think about them, you always remember them after the first time, but they can be hard to notice on the fly.

I think people shouldn't be unreasonably rewarded for knowing more rules minutiae than the other person, so here are some edge cases. This list certainly isn't complete, but I believe most things off the list are too close to rules trivia - interesting to think about, but not powerful enough to keep in mind. (Several things in this list are already near or past that threshold.)

These are ordered roughly by relevance.

Fundamental Rules Principles

When you play a card, you do exactly what it says, in order. If you can't do something, you do as much as you can. This happens even if the card leaves play for some reason.

If multiple effects trigger at the same time, you choose what order they resolve in. Sometimes the order matter. For the online client in particular, be careful you do things in the right order. For example, if you play Alchemists + Herbalist, you should topdeck all your Alchemists before using Herbalist to put the Potion back.

When buying a card, first you trigger all on-buy events, then you gain the card, then you trigger all on-gain events.

Card Costs

Dominion cards have 3 axes of cost: coins, Potion, and debt. A card costs more than another one if it is greater than or equal on all those axes. So for example, $4P > $3P > $3, and 8 debt > 4 debt, What about $3P vs $4? You can't compare them, neither costs more than the other.

This lets you do several neat things, like

* Remodel Familiar into Golem.
* With Haggler in play, buy City Quarter and gain Engineer off Haggler.
* Play Stonemason, trashing University to gain 2 Vineyards.

If you play Salvager and trash a Familiar, you get +$3, not +$3P, because Salvager specifically says "+$1 per $1 it costs" - it ignores the Potion and debt axes.

Stonemason Overpay

If an action costs $0 (because of Bridge or Highway, for example), you cannot overpay by $0 to gain two copies of that action. You also cannot overpay by debt to gain two copies of an Action that costs debt. You are, however, allowed to overpay by Potion, so with $5P you can buy Stonemason and gain 2 Alchemists.

Prince + Durations

Prince does not work with Durations. When you play the Duration, it stays in play past the end of the turn. Because you didn't discard it the turn you played it, it doesn't go back to the Prince when it finishes resolving.

There is an exception. If you Prince a Gear, and don't set aside any cards with Gear, the Gear won't stay in play and will successfully get Princed next turn. But normally, you should assume it won't work, and Prince something else instead.

Procession + Reserve cards

If you Procession a Reserve card, the Reserve card goes to the Tavern mat. Procession loses track of the Reserve card, so it can't trash it. However, you still get to gain an Action costing $1 more. This also applies to Island.

Band of Misfits / Overlord + Reserve cards

If you play Band of Misfits or Overlord as a Reserve card, you're going to have a bad time. Both cards say "This is that card until it leaves play." Moving to the Tavern mat counts as leaving play. Once it's on the mat, the card doesn't remember what it used to be, so you can't call it and it'll be stuck on the mat forever. Just don't do it.

Events

Buying an event doesn't count as buying a card. Some side effects of this:

1. You can turn Hermits into Madmen while spending your Buys on events.
2. You can buy events on Mission turns.
3. Haggler, Goons, and Swamp Hag will not trigger on buying an event.

Buying an event doesn't count as buying a card, which can make it easier to gain Madmen.

Hermit + Scheme

If you don't buy a card and topdeck Hermit with your Scheme, you can gain a Madman without trashing the Hermit. From the wiki:

Quote
In this scenario, two things happen simultaneously, and you get to choose the order :

    (Hermit) Trash the Hermit and gain a Madman.
    (Scheme) Hermit goes on top of your deck.

If you resolve (1) then (2), you gain a Madman, the Hermit goes to the Trash, and then (2) doesn't do anything because Scheme lost track of the Hermit.
If you resolve (2) then (1), you put the Hermit on top of your deck, then Hermit attempts to trash itself but fails because it lost track of itself, then you still gain a Madman because you do as much as you can of the Hermit statement.

Capital Tricks

Capital gives you debt only when you discard it from play. If you can avoid discarding it from play, you don't take debt. You can topdeck it with Herbalist, or trash it with Counterfeit / Bonfire / Mint on-buy. If you Crown it, you get $12 + 2 buys and only take the 6 debt once. Of special note is the Mandarin on-gain. If you play Capital + 4 other Treasures that give at least $7, you can buy Mandarin + Province every turn until the Provinces or Mandarins run out.

Throne Room variants + Durations

The official ruling is that if a Throne Room variant directly applies to a Duration card, that Throne Room stays out until the Duration leaves play.

Examples:
* You play Throne Room on a Fishing Village. The Throne Room stays out until the Fishing Village gets discarded next turn.
* You play Throne Room on Throne Room, using the doubled-Throne Room to play 2 Caravans twice. The first Throne Room was applied to the 2nd Throne Room, and gets discarded at end of turn. The 2nd Throne Room was applied to both Caravans, so it stays out until next turn.
* You play Throne Room on Hireling. The Throne Room stays out for the rest of the game.

The rule works this way because for IRL play, it's easier to track which Durations are modified. In practice, if you're playing a big King's Court stack, you want to bunch all the Durations under the same King's Court if possible.

The rule gets trickier is with Procession. Because Procession trashes the discarded Duration, it always gets discarded at end of turn. But, you still get the Duration card's effect next turn.

Examples:
* You play Procession on Caravan. You trash Caravan and gain a $5 cost Action. Procession is discarded at end of turn. On your next turn, you draw 2 cards.
* You play Procession on Hireling. You trash Hireling and gain a $7 cost Action (if one exists). Procession is discarded at end of turn. For the rest of the game, you draw an extra 2 cards.

Adventures Tokens + Travellers

If you have a token on Page, only Page will get that bonus. The other Travellers in the Page line won't. Similarly for Peasant. This is because the other cards in the line are not in the Supply, and didn't come from the Page pile.

Band of Misfits / Overlord + Conspirator

When you play Band of Misfits as another action card, it counts as two action plays for Conspirator. The first action is the Band of Misfits, and the second is the card you copy.

Yes, this means that if all 3 are in the Kingdom, you can play Overlord as Band of Misfits as Conspirator for your first action, and the Conspirator will be activated. Let me know if this ever happens to you.

Band of Misfits / Overlord + Adventures Tokens

Band of Misfits gets the bonuses of both the Band of Misfits pile and the pile it's copying. This happens for the same reason as the Conspirator case.

Inheritance

When you inherit an action, your Estates gain the types and the card text of that action, but they're still called Estate and still cost $2. This has a bunch of follow-on effects. Among them are:

* If an Adventures token is on the pile you inherit, your Estates will not gain those effects, because your Estates did not come from that pile.
* You cannot put Adventures tokens on the Estate pile, because the Estates in the supply are not actions - they aren't your Estates.
* Estate as Crossroads can never give +Actions, because Estate keeps its name. When you play an Estate, it can never be "the first time you played Crossroads this turn". For similar reasons, Estate as Treasure Map doesn't work.

Charm + Knights

If you play Charm in gain mode, you cannot buy a Knight, then gain the Knight underneath it with Charm. The on-buy happens first, and at the time you're picking a card to gain with Charm, the top Knight hasn't been gained yet.

Split Piles + Adventures Tokens

The official ruling is that if a token is on a split pile, it applies to all cards in that pile. When deciding whether you can put a token on that pile, you decide based on the card type of the randomizer. For Castles, the randomizer is a Victory card, and for everything else it's an action.



What that means in practice:

* You can place a +Card token on the Encampment/Plunder pile, even if the top card is a Plunder. Both your Encampments and Plunders will draw you one card.
* You cannot place a +Card token on the Castles pile, even if the top Castle is an Action.

The one way a token can get on the Castles pile is if the top Castle is an Action, it costs $4 or less through cost reduction, and you gain it with Seaway.

Playing Treasures During the Action Phase

So far, you can do this with Black Market and Storyteller.

* If you play a Silver, then play a Merchant after, the Merchant will not give $1 if you play another Silver. Merchant only triggers the first time you play a Silver, and a Silver was already played.
* If you play a Crown during Black Market / Storyteller, it's played as a Throne Room because it's still the Action phase. You resolve the Crown in the middle of Black Market / Storyteller.
* If you gain a Mandarin during your Action phase, treasures played by Black Market or Storyteller go on top of your deck.

Summon + Cards that Gain Other Cards on Gain



(I learned about this interaction very recently.)

If you Summon Border Village or Death Cart, Summon won't play it next turn.

Wait, what?

Here's how Summon works, if you spell it all out.
* Gain an Action card costing up to $4.
* (The gained card goes to discard, or on top of the deck if you gain Nomad Camp.)
* (Summon looks for the card where it expects it to be, the discard or top of the deck for Nomad Camp.)
* It sets it aside, and if it did, it sets it aside next turn.

So what happens with the cards above? To quote the wiki:

Quote
Summoning a card that gains other cards when gained (such as Border Village or Death Cart) will cause the Summoned card to not be set aside, and thus not played at the start of your next turn. This is because the extra cards gained cover up the Summoned card in the discard pile (since the Summoned card is not set aside immediately), causing the Summoned card to be lost track of.

What you can do, however, is Summon a Border Village, then reveal Watchtower to topdeck the card gained from Border Village. Then Summon will successfully find the Border Village and set it aside.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 03:49:43 pm by Titandrake »
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Qvist

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Re: Occasionally Relevent Rule Edge-Cases
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2017, 05:09:47 am »
+2

Very handy summary. I'm pretty sure a few things could get added, like Mission+Outpost+Possession cases or Possession stuff in general which always confuses me.
Other suggestions: Tokens on Travellers, Throne Room variants on Durations, Black Market specialties (Travellers, Encampment, Young Witch, etc), Summon edge cases (Border Village, Death Cart) or when two cards want to go to different spots (Transmogrify into Nomad Camp, Armory a Villa)

Also I would add: "If you play Capital + 4 other Treasures that give at least $7, you can buy Mandarin + Province every turn until the Provinces or Mandarins run out." which matters especially in 3p games or if the opponent tries to deny.
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Re: Occasionally Relevent Rule Edge-Cases
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2017, 08:02:52 am »
0

Mandarin/Crown could use its own section considering it is not necessarily tied to Black Market/Storyteller.
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Re: Occasionally Relevent Rule Edge-Cases
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2017, 08:48:55 am »
+1

Note: if you Throne Room BoM and it has a vanilla bonus token on its pile, you only get the BoM token bonus on the first play, because on the second play it is now whatever card it's emulating.
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Polk5440

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Re: Occasionally Relevent Rule Edge-Cases
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2017, 11:10:18 am »
0

Some comments.
"gotcha" scenarios

A "gotcha" scenario is one where someone tricks someone. They "gotcha". Not a good connotation with little known rules-pedantry. Maybe reword? (Awaclus hat off.)

Quote
order matter.
order matters.

Quote
$4P > $3P > $3, and 8 debt > 4 debt, and $3P is not comparable to $4. This isn't a very tricky rule

Maybe explicitly state the rule in colloquial language as possible? Something like, Card A costs more than Card B if you can purchase Card B with the money you paid for Card A (and they do not have the same cost). What you have are basically all examples of the rule.

Quote
Band of Misfits / Overlord + Conspirator

When you play Band of Misfits as another action card, it counts as two action plays for Conspirator. The first action is the Band of Misfits, and the second is the card you copy.

Yes, this means that if all 3 are in the Kingdom, you can play Overlord as Band of Misfits as Conspirator for your first action, and the Conspirator will be activated. Let me know if this ever happens to you.

Overlord-Conspirator came up in a game for me yesterday. I did not know this one. In Discord, Mic Qsenoch pointed out that there was a rule change/ruling change since Dark Ages came out that affected this interaction. I would like a link to when this happened.
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Re: Occasionally Relevent Rule Edge-Cases
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2017, 11:59:44 am »
0

Maybe explicitly state the rule in colloquial language as possible? Something like, Card A costs more than Card B if you can purchase Card B with the money you paid for Card A (and they do not have the same cost). What you have are basically all examples of the rule.

You can purchase Engineer with $3, but that doesn't mean it is cheaper.
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Re: Occasionally Relevent Rule Edge-Cases
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2017, 12:18:41 pm »
+1

* Estate as Crossroads can never give +Actions, because Estate keeps its name. When you play an Estate, it can never be "the first time you played Crossroads this turn". For similar reasons, Estate as Treasure Map doesn't work.

Wow, I actually learned something.

A "gotcha" scenario is one where someone tricks someone. They "gotcha". Not a good connotation with little known rules-pedantry. Maybe reword? (Awaclus hat off.)

Hey, that's not something that I would say.

Maybe explicitly state the rule in colloquial language as possible? Something like, Card A costs more than Card B if you can purchase Card B with the money you paid for Card A (and they do not have the same cost). What you have are basically all examples of the rule.

You can purchase Engineer with $3, but that doesn't mean it is cheaper.

How about something like "Card A costs more than Card B if Card B's cost is a subset of Card A's cost, for example [examples])"?

Deadlock39

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Re: Occasionally Relevent Rule Edge-Cases
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2017, 02:57:20 pm »
+1

Overlord-Conspirator came up in a game for me yesterday. I did not know this one. In Discord, Mic Qsenoch pointed out that there was a rule change/ruling change since Dark Ages came out that affected this interaction. I would like a link to when this happened.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13115.msg487471#msg487471
Conspirator is a confusing case; obv. I am sad it doesn't just count Action cards in play like Peddler. Conspirator counts Actions, not "cards," which helps a little; two Actions were played, BoM and whatever. So, Conspirator sees "I played BoM as Village" as "I played two Actions." A rulings reversal.

Earlier that that post in that thread the rule is mentioned as it previously was with it only counting as one card played for Conspirator.

That thread also mentions another interaction that might belong here, which is that if you Throne a BoM/Overlord, and choose a card that trashes itself on the first play (e.g. Embargo), then it stops being that card when it enters the trash and becomes BoM/Overlord again before it is played a second time, allowing you to pick a second target, which is not something you could do otherwise.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2017, 03:18:39 pm by Deadlock39 »
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Re: Occasionally Relevent Rule Edge-Cases
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2017, 03:35:12 pm »
+1

Procession does not stay out when played on a duration action is another useful one.

And if a Duration is hit by enchantress it won't stay out.

It would also be useful to include a few sentences about how Black Market works online, because the rules changes are not reflected in the text of the card. 60 card deck, you can't see it in advance, and it's reshuffled each time through (so it doesn't matter what order the cards are put back in), plus the criteria on which cards can be in it (no card that impacts setup).

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Re: Occasionally Relevent Rule Edge-Cases
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2017, 03:48:31 pm »
+2

I'm seeing lots of new articles, but somehow none of them are on the front page. What's up there? I thought we were fixing that.
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Re: Occasionally Relevent Rule Edge-Cases
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2017, 04:13:34 pm »
+4

I'm seeing lots of new articles, but somehow none of them are on the front page. What's up there? I thought we were fixing that.

It is being fixed!
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Re: Occasionally Relevent Rule Edge-Cases
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2017, 05:25:35 pm »
0

* Estate as Crossroads can never give +Actions, because Estate keeps its name. When you play an Estate, it can never be "the first time you played Crossroads this turn". For similar reasons, Estate as Treasure Map doesn't work.

Wow, I actually learned something.

A "gotcha" scenario is one where someone tricks someone. They "gotcha". Not a good connotation with little known rules-pedantry. Maybe reword? (Awaclus hat off.)

Hey, that's not something that I would say.

Apologies. 

Quote
How about something like "Card A costs more than Card B if Card B's cost is a subset of Card A's cost, for example [examples])"?

That's much better than what I had.
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Re: Occasionally Relevent Rule Edge-Cases
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2017, 09:55:49 pm »
0

Also relevant, and maybe a fundamental principle (or maybe not):

Conditional statements matter.

If a card has "Do X. Do Y.", then when you play it you always (try to) do X, and then always (try to) do Y. If X fails, you still give Y a chance. However, if the card has "Do X. If you did, do Y.", then if X fails you don't get to do Y. For example, Embargo says "Trash this. Add an Embargo token to a Supply pile." Whether you succeeded in trashing Embargo or not (e.g. you Throne Roomed it so it's already trashed by the second time you play it), you always add the token. Whereas Mining Village says "You may trash this. If you do, +$2." so you can only get the money if you successfully trash it - if you decide to trash it but can't, you don't get the cash.

The only time this isn't actually the case is where the second action depends on a card chosen in the first action. Remodelers let you gain a card based on the trashed card's cost, so if there's no card trashed - and hence no cost - then you don't gain anything. Similarly, Ironworks gets you nothing if you never gain the card you were supposed to.
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Re: Occasionally Relevent Rule Edge-Cases
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2017, 10:12:15 pm »
+6

Quote
How about something like "Card A costs more than Card B if Card B's cost is a subset of Card A's cost, for example [examples])"?

That's much better than what I had.

Not that I disagree, but I think that would only sound more clear to the people that wouldn't have a problem understanding how costs work in the first place?
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Re: Occasionally Relevent Rule Edge-Cases
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2017, 11:02:35 pm »
+1

Quote
How about something like "Card A costs more than Card B if Card B's cost is a subset of Card A's cost, for example [examples])"?

That's much better than what I had.

Not that I disagree, but I think that would only sound more clear to the people that wouldn't have a problem understanding how costs work in the first place?

Yeah, that's also my concern. Didn't GendoIkari make a picture explaining costs once? I haven't been able to track it down but I was planning on using that instead of trying to explain it with words.
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Re: Occasionally Relevent Rule Edge-Cases
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2017, 11:16:34 pm »
+1

Quote
How about something like "Card A costs more than Card B if Card B's cost is a subset of Card A's cost, for example [examples])"?

That's much better than what I had.

Not that I disagree, but I think that would only sound more clear to the people that wouldn't have a problem understanding how costs work in the first place?

Yeah, that's also my concern. Didn't GendoIkari make a picture explaining costs once? I haven't been able to track it down but I was planning on using that instead of trying to explain it with words.

Yes, but it hasn't been updated with Debt.

Is "Card A costs more than Card B if Card A's price has at least as much coin, Potion, and Debt in it as Card B's price" any better?
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Re: Occasionally Relevent Rule Edge-Cases
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2017, 11:23:11 pm »
0

I think it's better, with maybe a clarification about the fact that most cards cost 0 potion and 0 Debt.
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Re: Occasionally Relevent Rule Edge-Cases
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2017, 11:27:23 pm »
0

Is "Card A costs more than Card B if Card A's price has at least as much coin, Potion, and Debt in it as Card B's price" any better?

If you swapped the clauses on either side of the "if" this statement is true. Otherwise you need to add something to the second part like "and at least one of coin, Potion, or Debt is higher than on Card B".
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Re: Occasionally Relevent Rule Edge-Cases
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2017, 11:34:35 pm »
+2

"Do X. If you did, do Y."

More often you'll see this worded "You may do X for Y".
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Re: Occasionally Relevent Rule Edge-Cases
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2017, 02:42:56 am »
0

"Do X. If you did, do Y."

More often you'll see this worded "You may do X for Y".
Oh yeah, I forgot that's the new wording.
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Re: Occasionally Relevent Rule Edge-Cases
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2017, 05:29:31 am »
+1

Hermit + Events

Buying an event doesn't count as buying a card, which can make it easier to gain Madmen.

Instead of that, how about a more generic section to just point out / remind us that "buying events doesn't count as buying cards". And then list the ways in which this is relevant.
1. Gaining Madmans
2. Mission turns
3. Buying when Swamp Hag/Goons is in play
... and probably a few more.
I suppose what counts as a "gotcha" depends very much on your familiarity with these things. Perhaps most users of this forum are very familiar with the "events aren't cards" idea, and so maybe the Hermit/Madman one is the only real "gotcha". For me, a bit less familiar, I think at least the swamp hag one counts as a "gotcha".
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mameluke

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Re: Occasionally Relevent Rule Edge-Cases
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2017, 06:30:46 pm »
+2

The split piles / tokens section should be updated to mention the the +Buy token *can * be placed on Castles, however, via Seaway.
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CPiGuy

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Re: Occasionally Relevent Rule Edge-Cases
« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2017, 12:08:13 pm »
+4

"Do X. If you did, do Y."

More often you'll see this worded "You may do X for Y".
Oh yeah, I forgot that's the new wording.

Wouldn't you still use the original wording if you want X to be mandatory if possible?
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Awaclus

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Re: Occasionally Relevent Rule Edge-Cases
« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2017, 12:39:46 pm »
0

"Do X. If you did, do Y."

More often you'll see this worded "You may do X for Y".
Oh yeah, I forgot that's the new wording.

Wouldn't you still use the original wording if you want X to be mandatory if possible?

Wero probably just quoted the wrong phrase though. "You may trash this. If you do, +$2" on Mining Village has been changed to the "you may X for Y" format.

Titandrake

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Re: Occasionally Relevent Rule Edge-Cases
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2017, 03:52:52 pm »
+1

I updated the post to

* Elaborate a bit more on costs.
* Add that you can't overpay by $0 or with debt with Stonemason.
* Explain Throne Room + Durations (which are annoyingly hard to explain.)
* Chang the "Hermit + Events" section to just "Events"
* Add something for tokens + Travellers
* Add something for Summon + Border Village (which I didn't even know about.)
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