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Author Topic: Hot Take: Triumph  (Read 523 times)

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jsh357

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Hot Take: Triumph
« on: September 07, 2017, 04:33:47 pm »
+19

This is a messy article that I'm sure is missing some nuances. I just felt like writing something. I hope it helps somebody.



In Adam Horton's recent analysis of a reddit card ranking poll, Triumph was the second-most controversial pick of the lot, with ratings ranging from 2/10 to 9/10 and an extremely high variance. It's understandable; until you have lost to a good Triumph strategy, you might be inclined to think it's a mediocre event. I'm here to argue that Triumph is anything but that, and it can in fact be such a centralizing endgame purchase that it should weigh into your plans from the start of the game unless there's just no way to make it good.

When is Triumph good?
To put it simply, when you have ways of gaining many cards in a turn. These gains could come from +Buy, traditional gainers such as Ironworks or Workshop, Remodel variants, or even non-traditional gainers like Bandit Camp and Beggar. As long as you are gaining cards during turns, Triumph has the potential to explode, and the more you can gain, the better it gets.

As a simple example, Beggar gains three cards to your hand (Copper). The Estate gained from purchasing Triumph adds another, and as a result, Triumph grants you 4 virtual victory points. That's more than a Duchy, and you potentially paid $0 for this Event. (taking Debt tokens) You might be thinking, "but Beggar gains me crappy cards!" Well, Beggar isn't the only synergy. Let's take the example of Bandit Camp. If you manage to get five of them and play them all, that's a Spoils per play, and those also factor into your point total. Spoils are nice, right? But you need not necessarily be loading your deck with stop cards like treasure and victory cards.

Let's say you don't even want to commit to gaining cards just for Triumph. The truth is, gainers are already good things to have in your deck in most cases. You WANT a way to get mass amounts of Villages or other components. Spending $7 on 2 cards is often better than just buying a Gold. Triumph is icing on the cake. When your deck is humming along and gaining you great stuff ALREADY, but all of a sudden the end of the game is near, that's when you light the fuse and go in on Triumph to capitalize on what your deck can already do!

That's a lot of points
Novice and mid-level Dominion players fall victim to the cost-sunk fallacy a lot. "Since Province costs $8, surely it's better than something that costs 5D!" However, the math is quite clear with Triumph. If you gain more than 6 points, you are paying less for a value higher than what the Province could have given you. To be fair, the end goal of the game is a concern. Perhaps lowering the Province pile is valuable since you want to end the game more quickly. However, something to keep in mind is that games where Triumph is important have a good chance of ending on piles since many cards are being gained; you might as well make one of those a 10-point Estate, huh? Maybe you think this is just an extreme good case for Triumph, but that case is more common than it sounds on paper. Bear in mind, Triumph has a similarity with Goons: you can always purchase Coppers at the end of the game to power up your Triumph turn. Let's say you have a game with Worker's Village and split the pile even. 5 of those is 5 extra buys, so with the additional Estate gain from Triumph, you're already beating Province. (Of course, you need not purchase Copper if more useful cards are affordable)

Victory Points are for the end of the game
In almost any game of Dominion, you want to delay greening as long as possible, and the same is true for Triumph. It's especially true if you can continue to gain Gainers and build up to a better Triumph purchase, but no matter what the case, waiting is generally a good plan. With that said, if your opponent is similarly interested in Triumph, it may be necessary to contest Estates earlier in the game than normal. This is a judgment call, and it's the same as any other greening judgment call you'd make in Dominion, only with the huge caveat that you can spend $0 to purchase Triumph. Remember that only 5 pre-Triumph gains means 6 points (as much as a Province) and you can potentially do a lot better! How many times have you built a huge engine, had a bunch of Buys at the end of the turn and had to click "End Turn" because there was nothing good to spend them on? I'm just saying, Triumph and its tempting cost gives you a magnificent option.

Stacking
Something to keep in mind is that there's no limit on how many Triumphs you can purchase as long as enough Estates are in the supply. As long as you have $5 or more (and multiple buys), multiple Triumphs are an excellent endgame play; each one you do will be worth one extra point as well. In fact, in many cases, this will be flat-out better than buying a Province. In nearly all cases, points-wise, it's better than buying a Duchy.

Anti-Triumph

The best way to counter someone going for Triumph, generally, is to buy your own Triumphs. Maybe that goes without saying. However, there could be reasons this isn't feasible. If the Estate pile is getting low, do bear in mind you have the option of denying potential points from a Triumphing opponent by simply buying Estates. Usually, this is a losing play since the player building up to Triumph probably has an overwhelming endgame control advantage, but it's important to keep the tactic in mind just in case it comes up. Remember that Estates are cheap, and if you have +Buys you can easily burn the pile. Another situation could be that you are shooting for Provinces and your opponent is just slogging it out with Triumph. If that's the case, you do not want the game to drag out and need to green hard, possibly accelerating with cards like Salvager or Rebuild to get big payloads. Even then, I'd be a little afraid.

Conclusion, if any
Triumph is a powerful event. Like many cards in the game, it's situational, but don't let that fool you into thinking those situations never happen, or you will one day be on the receiving end of a devastating point gulf because of Triumph. If there are ways to gain cards in the game, one of the first things you should be asking yourself is whether you can make Triumph more than or equally as valuable as Province.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 04:55:47 pm by jsh357 »
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Hot Take: Triumph
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2017, 04:59:31 pm »
0

The synergy with Inheritance might be worth discussing. (And some lower-key ones, such as Silk Road and Gardens.)
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Re: Hot Take: Triumph
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2017, 05:00:06 pm »
+2

For an introductory article, I think this is very good. I feel a lot of players below level 55 don't really understand this card and outright ignore it.
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Chris is me

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Re: Hot Take: Triumph
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2017, 05:29:24 pm »
+2

More than any other card in Dominion, Triumph basically guarantees that whomever can cause a pile out will win the game.
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Re: Hot Take: Triumph
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2017, 05:39:21 pm »
+1

More than any other card in Dominion, Triumph basically guarantees that whomever can cause a pile out will win the game.

I don't think you pile out very often if you're not going to win the game.

Chris is me

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Re: Hot Take: Triumph
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2017, 07:38:53 pm »
+10

More than any other card in Dominion, Triumph basically guarantees that whomever can cause a pile out will win the game.

I don't think you pile out very often if you're not going to win the game.

You just skipped over the word "can" in my post in order to get your pedantic snark points in.
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Limetime

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Re: Hot Take: Triumph
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2017, 08:59:54 pm »
+2

I feel all players below level 70 don't really understand this game.
ftfy
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werothegreat

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Re: Hot Take: Triumph
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2017, 09:33:28 pm »
0

I feel all players below level 70 don't really understand this game.
ftfy

Soooo no one understands this game?  I was under the impression iso levels capped out around 65.
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Limetime

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Re: Hot Take: Triumph
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2017, 09:33:57 pm »
+1

I feel all players below level 70 don't really understand this game.
ftfy

Soooo no one understands this game?  I was under the impression iso levels capped out around 65.
Key word: really
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Hot Take: Triumph
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2017, 01:10:10 pm »
0

It's probably worth reiterating near the beginning of the article that Triumph requires the Estate to be gained in order to get the points. I know it's right there on the card(-shaped-object), and it comes up later in your discussion, but it's something that can be easily overlooked, especially by someone unfamiliar with the card.

Also, I have a rules question. If I'm Possessing someone and do something that causes the unpossessed me to gain a card (e.g I play Marauder) and then I purchase Triumph, do I get points for cards that I have gained as both the possessor and the possessed player's opponent?
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AJD

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Re: Hot Take: Triumph
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2017, 01:17:09 pm »
+2

It's probably worth reiterating near the beginning of the article that Triumph requires the Estate to be gained in order to get the points. I know it's right there on the card(-shaped-object), and it comes up later in your discussion, but it's something that can be easily overlooked, especially by someone unfamiliar with the card.

Also, I have a rules question. If I'm Possessing someone and do something that causes the unpossessed me to gain a card (e.g I play Marauder) and then I purchase Triumph, do I get points for cards that I have gained as both the possessor and the possessed player's opponent?

I'm pretty sure no points can be scored for Triumph on a Possessed turn: the buyer of Triumph does not successfully gain an Estate (or anything else).
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singletee

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Re: Hot Take: Triumph
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2017, 01:18:45 pm »
+1

It's probably worth reiterating near the beginning of the article that Triumph requires the Estate to be gained in order to get the points. I know it's right there on the card(-shaped-object), and it comes up later in your discussion, but it's something that can be easily overlooked, especially by someone unfamiliar with the card.

Also, I have a rules question. If I'm Possessing someone and do something that causes the unpossessed me to gain a card (e.g I play Marauder) and then I purchase Triumph, do I get points for cards that I have gained as both the possessor and the possessed player's opponent?

You don't get any points.

First, Triumph causes you (the Possessed) to gain an Estate. Then, Possession causes the Possessor to gain the Estate instead. Then, Triumph says "If you did, +1 per card you gained this turn." You (the Possessed) didn't gain any cards, including that Estate, so nothing else happens.

Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Hot Take: Triumph
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2017, 01:51:04 pm »
0

It's probably worth reiterating near the beginning of the article that Triumph requires the Estate to be gained in order to get the points. I know it's right there on the card(-shaped-object), and it comes up later in your discussion, but it's something that can be easily overlooked, especially by someone unfamiliar with the card.

Also, I have a rules question. If I'm Possessing someone and do something that causes the unpossessed me to gain a card (e.g I play Marauder) and then I purchase Triumph, do I get points for cards that I have gained as both the possessor and the possessed player's opponent?

You don't get any points.

First, Triumph causes you (the Possessed) to gain an Estate. Then, Possession causes the Possessor to gain the Estate instead. Then, Triumph says "If you did, +1 per card you gained this turn." You (the Possessed) didn't gain any cards, including that Estate, so nothing else happens.

Ah, ok. Same logic as with Groundskeeper. Makes sense. Sorry for the mini-derailment.
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Re: Hot Take: Triumph
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2017, 02:11:02 pm »
0

It's worth mentioning that -- similar for Defiled Shrine, Battlefield, Dominate, etc. -- you can trash the green that you get from Triumph, but still keep most of the VP from it -- something you cannot say about Province, Colony, etc.
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