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Author Topic: Any new thoughts on IRL handicapping?  (Read 3531 times)

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Triumph44

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Any new thoughts on IRL handicapping?
« on: September 02, 2017, 02:18:00 pm »
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I browsed the forum for threads on handicapping and saw that this had been discussed before, but not for several years.

I've played Dominion a ton online and play it a few times a year IRL.  IRL the games are usually 3 and 4 player games with people who are casual players.  I've definitely chosen some less than optimal strategies in these games to try to give others a better chance to win, but it's hard to overcome my natural inclination to want to win, or at least not to lose in a stupid way.   Does anyone here have any experience with handicapping the game in this situation?   Obviously always going last is one way, but has anyone tried altering their starting deck to give them a disadvantage - e.g. replacing Estates with Curses or one Copper with an Estate/Curse or anything like this?   I'm not sure I would ever suggest this in my own games, but I am curious if anyone actually does it and whether they've found something that works.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 02:19:11 pm by Triumph44 »
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Limetime

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Re: Any new thoughts on IRL handicapping?
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2017, 02:33:05 pm »
+1

I mean you could handicap yourself but it is pretty bad on peoples self esteem if they loose to a handicapped player.
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DG

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Re: Any new thoughts on IRL handicapping?
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2017, 02:40:33 pm »
+1

I browsed the forum for threads on handicapping and saw that this had been discussed before, but not for several years.

I've played Dominion a ton online and play it a few times a year IRL.  IRL the games are usually 3 and 4 player games with people who are casual players.  I've definitely chosen some less than optimal strategies in these games to try to give others a better chance to win, but it's hard to overcome my natural inclination to want to win, or at least not to lose in a stupid way.   Does anyone here have any experience with handicapping the game in this situation?   Obviously always going last is one way, but has anyone tried altering their starting deck to give them a disadvantage - e.g. replacing Estates with Curses or one Copper with an Estate/Curse or anything like this?   I'm not sure I would ever suggest this in my own games, but I am curious if anyone actually does it and whether they've found something that works.

I tend to pick a strategy in a kingdom that I think is relatively simple and not optimal, then play it cleanly. It gives my friends a chance to see some robust deck construction without it being complicated or overpowering.
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crj

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Re: Any new thoughts on IRL handicapping?
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2017, 02:42:10 pm »
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My first instinct is that handicapping in Dominion is doomed.

One of the beauties of the game is how differently it plays each time, depending on the precise Kingdom you choose. The relative worths of different things ebb and flow. And that makes it hard to choose a handicap that will be sensible across all kingdoms.
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Triumph44

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Re: Any new thoughts on IRL handicapping?
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2017, 03:08:43 pm »
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My first instinct is that handicapping in Dominion is doomed.

One of the beauties of the game is how differently it plays each time, depending on the precise Kingdom you choose. The relative worths of different things ebb and flow. And that makes it hard to choose a handicap that will be sensible across all kingdoms.

I agree that there would have to be errata in certain Kingdoms - e.g. if you had a handicap Curse in an Ambassador game, the first Curse that that player Ambassadors in a game goes to Token Limbo instead of back to the Supply - but I don't think the project is completely doomed.  And if it is an advantage in a very minor amount of kingdoms, so be it.
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teamlyle

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Re: Any new thoughts on IRL handicapping?
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2017, 05:23:33 pm »
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My first instinct is that the estates to curses would be irrelevant most of the time, since it doesn't affect buying power. Turning a copper into an estate or curse, though, seems like such a big disadvantage that it would be very hard to catch up unless you're playing someone who's obsessed with Rats or something. The first time I played Dominion Online (back when Goko was around) I played against Alice the Serf, who starts with 6 coppers, 4 estates. I built an "engine" with village and smithy, with one silver as my only payload, but still won.

This is not the most related, but in an IRL game at my school, some people thought of "chancellor/tunnel" and totally wanted to try it. I told them that the combo didn't work since you weren't discarding anything, just moving your deck to the discards, but they were like, meh, let's try it anyway. I wanted to have fun, so instead of going for the broken "combo," I made this engine that played 4 knights a turn.

I didn't win that one.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 05:28:16 pm by teamlyle »
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J Reggie

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Re: Any new thoughts on IRL handicapping?
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2017, 06:58:37 pm »
+1

You could always restrict the landmarks, like Wall only applies to you or something.

Beyond Awesome

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Re: Any new thoughts on IRL handicapping?
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2017, 08:11:00 pm »
+2

Go last.
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aku_chi

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Re: Any new thoughts on IRL handicapping?
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2017, 08:48:47 pm »
+5

When I play Dominion against my Mom, I give her a handicap by letting her take N turns before I take my first.  If I win, we increment N.  If my mom wins, we decrement N.  N tends to stay between 2-4.  This works pretty well, but it isn't perfect, because some kingdoms play faster than others.  I don't know how well this would work with a multiplayer game.

When I play multiplayer games with my friends, we play with the usual Dominion rules, so I'll go last after each game I win.  Also, I'll often comment on what I think the strong cards or synergies on the board might be before the first buy.  So, if anybody is baffled by the board, they can get my 2 cents.
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Elestan

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Re: Any new thoughts on IRL handicapping?
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2017, 01:56:04 am »
+3

I've been using the Curse for starting Copper handicap for many years, and I think it works as well as a handicap can in Dominion - which is to say, imperfectly, but often good enough.

In the 1st Edition "First Game" Kingdom, one substituted Curse can level a small but noticeable skill difference.  Two can level a moderate difference, and three a significant difference.  In other Kingdoms, its effectiveness depends greatly on the availability of cheap trashing; if Chapel is in the game, even three Curses is not going to slow down a player who knows how to use it effectively.  In those Kingdoms, I usually try to handicap myself by picking out what I think the most useful card or two in the Kingdom are, and then not buying them.
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Triumph44

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Re: Any new thoughts on IRL handicapping?
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2017, 07:49:12 pm »
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Thanks for the thoughts, everyone.   Glad to hear that people have different handicapping methods.
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ackmondual

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Re: Any new thoughts on IRL handicapping?
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2017, 12:01:38 am »
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I mean you could handicap yourself but it is pretty bad on peoples self esteem if they loose to a handicapped player.
To me, it was more disheartening or even downright aggravating how good players would play out their entire decks with Village + Smithy like combos, while the rest of players waited 20 seconds to 4 minutes per each of those turns.  One of the main "sells" of the game where game flow goes quickly is now nullified.  Hearing that THAT player ended up doubling your score... the damage may already have been done.

As for the OP's Q:
1) A better way would be to let others know what you're doing ahead of time so they could either better match or beat your strategy
2) Simply refrain from doing stuff like playing out your entire deck.  Limit it to drawing up to 10 cards per turn.
3) Make "special Landmarks" that only affect you...
-Vs. each other player, you must win by at least 5 to 15pts
-grab a Chess timer, or use an app on your phone, and limit the time taken per turn, or for the whole game... probably no more than 20s per turn?  Not counting Cleanup, as you can do that while the next player starts his turn

4) let players get away with murder
Figuratively.  One game, a newbie got excited b/c he played a Moat, and drew in a 2nd Treasure Map!  However, I pointed out that he had no actions left to play.  He was disappointed.  He let it be, and insisted upon so.  I would've been willing to let him go through with that anyways

5) Go first, but let other players have one extra turn. 
This tends to trip up new players. If you run out of Provinces and Victory cards, let them buy "virtual cards" or proxies.  No matter how many they buy, game ends with the player to the right of you.  As mentioned below, I don't think newbies can utilize first turn advantage unless you coach them



Go last.
This alone may not be enough.  Newbies probably won't understand the game enough to be able to properly take advantage of it
« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 12:12:13 am by ackmondual »
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Asper

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Re: Any new thoughts on IRL handicapping?
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2017, 09:52:23 am »
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I made a few fan cards that allows players to team up against another player. I mean, you can always just play Dominion in teams, but those cards do things only teams benefit from, so they give them the edge. Either way, I only very recently printed them and we didn't manage to test them yet.
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Asper

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Re: Any new thoughts on IRL handicapping?
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2017, 09:58:03 am »
+1

Another thing: You could let them pick their starting hands, or get a few coin tokens, or you could start with debt. Or just start with a thicker deck of 10 Coppers, 4 Estates and a Curse? More junk to trash, more shuffles, same points.
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tripwire

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Re: Any new thoughts on IRL handicapping?
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2017, 01:02:55 pm »
+1

I don't know how I missed this thread when it first came around. I want to echo both of these:

I tend to pick a strategy in a kingdom that I think is relatively simple and not optimal, then play it cleanly. It gives my friends a chance to see some robust deck construction without it being complicated or overpowering.

A better way would be to let others know what you're doing ahead of time so they could either better match or beat your strategy

Both of these are good because it allows you to still play something to the best of your ability, and it also gives your opponents opportunities to improve. Here's some other strategies I've played around with:

1) Letting my opponents pick a card or two that I can't buy. I find this helps encourage players to evaluate the board before they play and recognize powerful cards, while allowing me to play as optimally as I can with a 9 or 8 card kingdom.

2) Telling players a couple vague strategies and having them decide which one I should take. E.g. "mostly money or an engine," "a gardens rush or a minion stack." This helps people recognize a bunch of strategies and weigh them against each other, and helps them recognize what different kinds of decks are common. It also can let them avoid playing against decks they don't like; if they don't like playing against someone who draws their whole deck, they will nix that option.

I've had some good success with these strategies, although admittedly they only work for people who have some understanding of the game already. That being said, you can secretly ban cards for yourself to create an extra layer of challenge that others are unaware of. The danger with that (and all versions of deliberately playing badly) is that many might assume that what you're doing is an optimal strategy and you inadvertently prevent them from improving at the game.
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