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Author Topic: Undo Trolling  (Read 2733 times)

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Kirian

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Re: Undo Trolling
« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2017, 08:03:38 pm »
+1

I got the chance to do the opposite sort of thing today.

Defiled Shrine and Border Village on the board.  Opponent buys Border Village and gains Curse, but Shrine is on-buy rather than on-gain.  It took me a couple of moments to figure out what they'd done, then I asked if they wanted to undo.

That said, if your undo request is iffy, try to explain it in chat.  Not that I encounter declines that much.
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kipkoan

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Re: Undo Trolling
« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2017, 11:48:23 pm »
0

You should resign ... b) because it's much more useful for mods to have examples of games to pull up in which someone was clearly being trolled and chose to resign and blacklist.

What do the mods do when someone denies non-info undos requests?  What do they do to abusive players or trolls?  Wondering if they are banned. If so, do they get a refund if they had paid subscription?  My guess is most of them wouldn’t have a paid subscription.  Which reminds me — it’d be nice to have an option to only play with subscribers to help avoid the trolls.
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Re: Undo Trolling
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2017, 11:59:23 pm »
+1

You should resign ... b) because it's much more useful for mods to have examples of games to pull up in which someone was clearly being trolled and chose to resign and blacklist.

What do the mods do when someone denies non-info undos requests?  What do they do to abusive players or trolls?  Wondering if they are banned. If so, do they get a refund if they had paid subscription?  My guess is most of them wouldn’t have a paid subscription.  Which reminds me — it’d be nice to have an option to only play with subscribers to help avoid the trolls.

In the meantime, a good alternative is to set the minimum rating high enough. I usually get matched against ~52+ and I don't have a lot of problems with annoying people.
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kipkoan

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Re: Undo Trolling
« Reply #28 on: November 22, 2017, 12:22:28 am »
0

I usually get matched against ~52+ and I don't have a lot of problems with annoying people.

I’m barely rated 52.  :-[  #833 on the leaderboard. I need to get better to avoid the trolls. Lol.
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Re: Undo Trolling
« Reply #29 on: November 22, 2017, 07:00:18 am »
+1

If no-info undos were automatically allowed, wouldn't some people just test-run multiple buy-phases instead of doing the maths in advance? I don't think I've ever denied an undo, but that would annoy me.
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Undo Trolling
« Reply #30 on: November 22, 2017, 11:21:11 am »
0

If no-info undos were automatically allowed, wouldn't some people just test-run multiple buy-phases instead of doing the maths in advance? I don't think I've ever denied an undo, but that would annoy me.

I agree that would be awful if it happened, but I'm not convinced there would be more Undoing than there is now.
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Chris is me

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Re: Undo Trolling
« Reply #31 on: November 22, 2017, 11:24:34 am »
+5

If no-info undos were automatically allowed, wouldn't some people just test-run multiple buy-phases instead of doing the maths in advance? I don't think I've ever denied an undo, but that would annoy me.

I agree that would be awful if it happened, but I'm not convinced there would be more Undoing than there is now.

My gut reaction was the same as yours, but after giving it some thought - this would take less time than waiting for them to think it all out...
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GendoIkari

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Re: Undo Trolling
« Reply #32 on: November 22, 2017, 01:41:56 pm »
0

If no-info undos were automatically allowed, wouldn't some people just test-run multiple buy-phases instead of doing the maths in advance? I don't think I've ever denied an undo, but that would annoy me.

That... seems like a weird thing. I find it very hard to believe there would be an actual advantage to buying a bunch of things, finding out that you now can't afford as much as you wanted, then undoing it all, then buying a bunch of different things, repeatedly... compared to simply taking the very small amount of time it takes to know how much money you have and how much you can afford because of it. People are still going to tend to do what's easier.

What it would allow is someone to undo if they buy several things, then realize they made a math error and can't actually afford a Province after buying all the engine parts, so undoing to get 1 less engine part, or something like that. But it would be in response to a mistake in math. No one is going to try using those things instead of using any math.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2017, 01:43:22 pm by GendoIkari »
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Re: Undo Trolling
« Reply #33 on: November 22, 2017, 01:57:23 pm »
+4

Undo requests and denials are not grounds for bans or any kind of moderation, just to clear that up. Players are within rights to deny whatever undo requests they want.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Undo Trolling
« Reply #34 on: November 22, 2017, 04:22:14 pm »
0

Undo requests and denials are not grounds for bans or any kind of moderation, just to clear that up. Players are within rights to deny whatever undo requests they want.

Yeah I found it weird that people seem to think that denying an undo request is block-worthy or trollish behavior. Granting an undo request may show kindness; but it certainly shouldn't be expected/required.
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Chris is me

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Re: Undo Trolling
« Reply #35 on: November 23, 2017, 12:06:34 pm »
+3

Undo requests and denials are not grounds for bans or any kind of moderation, just to clear that up. Players are within rights to deny whatever undo requests they want.

Yeah I found it weird that people seem to think that denying an undo request is block-worthy or trollish behavior. Granting an undo request may show kindness; but it certainly shouldn't be expected/required.

Anything is block-worthy if you don’t like it. There’s no shame in not playing with anyone you don’t want to play with.

This of course should only apply to personal blacklists, and not like, moderation...
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Re: Undo Trolling
« Reply #36 on: November 23, 2017, 12:20:10 pm »
+8

If no-info undos were automatically allowed, wouldn't some people just test-run multiple buy-phases instead of doing the maths in advance? I don't think I've ever denied an undo, but that would annoy me.

I agree that would be awful if it happened, but I'm not convinced there would be more Undoing than there is now.

My gut reaction was the same as yours, but after giving it some thought - this would take less time than waiting for them to think it all out...

I don't intend to make the client automatically accept all no-information undos. I can see a lot of merit in doing this for the last click, and then code some specific situations where you can go back more then 1 click without permission. But if they would all be automatically granted...

I quite often realize I made some mistake a few actions back. I missed some optimization and well I just accept I decreased my own odds. But sometimes in dominion a lot can happen without new any new info. Especially if you're heavily overdrawing your deck, there is just no new info to gain in the entire last part of your turn. It would feel almost like cheating if I use undo to go back & forth through that, and I would be seriously annoyed if my opponent did that. But if the game auto-grants the undo's, it's also strange to accept playing sub-optimally in a competitive game and just go on. I don't want to put people in that dilemma.
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markus

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Re: Undo Trolling
« Reply #37 on: November 24, 2017, 03:37:34 am »
0

Frequently undoing multiple no-info steps could be feasible, if
1) the client doesn't show my opponent what I'm doing until it is locked in
2) there is a reasonable timer

I would mostly be annoyed about my opponent undoing several steps, because I wouldn't know when to focus on what they're doing. Or thinking that they bought some card but then they actually didn't because of undo.

For example, the Through the Ages app allows you to try your turn and undo in between without showing that to your opponent. In theory, it would be possible to think and calculate everything through in your mind before clicking it. But it's definitely more convenient and ultimately faster if you can trial & error a bit.
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Re: Undo Trolling
« Reply #38 on: November 24, 2017, 03:45:05 am »
0

Prismata automatically allows all non-information undos, which is basically your entire turn since there is no RNG in the game and your opponent can't do anything on your turn. I think it's a super cool system.
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Re: Undo Trolling
« Reply #39 on: November 24, 2017, 04:08:24 am »
+3

For example, the Through the Ages app allows you to try your turn and undo in between without showing that to your opponent. In theory, it would be possible to think and calculate everything through in your mind before clicking it. But it's definitely more convenient and ultimately faster if you can trial & error a bit.

To me, this is related to the "how fast do you play" thread. I'll play quicker if you allow me to undo a move done in haste.
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popsofctown

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Re: Undo Trolling
« Reply #40 on: December 07, 2017, 09:30:49 pm »
+2

I bought a Province I thought was for the win, but I was on an alt-vp strat and didn't realize Wolf Den made it for the loss until I saw the point counter.  My opponent denied the undo after being granted one earlier in the same game.
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SCSN

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Re: Undo Trolling
« Reply #41 on: December 08, 2017, 11:58:21 am »
+7

I bought a Province I thought was for the win, but I was on an alt-vp strat and didn't realize Wolf Den made it for the loss until I saw the point counter.  My opponent denied the undo after being granted one earlier in the same game.

I wouldn't have asked for that undo and instead been mad at myself for not seeing the interaction. If my opponent asked I'd probably grant, but not without feeling annoyed about his indiscreetness. I certainly wouldn't fault anyone for not granting it, let alone consider it to be an offense of such gravity as to consider it trolling.
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Re: Undo Trolling
« Reply #42 on: December 08, 2017, 12:07:12 pm »
+3

A few days ago someone asked me for an undo after playing Stables. I granted it before I started thinking because that's usually what I do with an undo request.
Then my opponent played Throne Room - Stables; he didn't draw an action the first time.

Was I sad? yes.
Do I want the software to solve this problem? no, not really.
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Undo Trolling
« Reply #43 on: December 08, 2017, 01:10:51 pm »
+1

It's never been more clear (to me) that there is not a definition of a reasonable undo request that applies to all players in all situations.

I remain unconvinced that there's a better system than what is in place currently.
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Re: Undo Trolling
« Reply #44 on: December 08, 2017, 01:51:29 pm »
+1

am i the only person that thinks the undo trolling in the OP is hilarious?  if that happened to me i would chuckle and throw up my hands.  that is some high-tier BM

i see the argument for living in a world with automatic no-info undos.  but that's hard to implement and vulnerable to bugs.  it's perfectly reasonable to not live in that world, and once you're not in that world, it's incumbent on you to know that all undos are strictly at the grace of your opponent.
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popsofctown

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Re: Undo Trolling
« Reply #45 on: December 09, 2017, 11:14:14 am »
+1

I bought a Province I thought was for the win, but I was on an alt-vp strat and didn't realize Wolf Den made it for the loss until I saw the point counter.  My opponent denied the undo after being granted one earlier in the same game.

I wouldn't have asked for that undo and instead been mad at myself for not seeing the interaction. If my opponent asked I'd probably grant, but not without feeling annoyed about his indiscreetness. I certainly wouldn't fault anyone for not granting it, let alone consider it to be an offense of such gravity as to consider it trolling.
I understand that intuition but.. I can't see an objective criteria that makes it different than all sorts of other stuff like "Oh, if I play Temple for VP I have to trash this Gold in my hand, is it ok if I don't do that."  I see people ask for that constantly.

I thought it was a duplicate Province, so my failure was in not installing a deck tracker, not missing interactions for the record.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 11:17:42 am by popsofctown »
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