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Author Topic: Undo Trolling  (Read 2955 times)

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Dingan

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Undo Trolling
« on: August 30, 2017, 12:12:09 am »
+1

So like, here's the scenario:

Player A makes an honest mistake-click. Lets even say the outcome of that click gained them no information. E.g. Player A accidentally clicks action+coin on Pawn instead of an intentional action+card. Drawing the card reveals information, thus an undo after that would be up for debate. But before the card is drawn (after the Pawn is played), an undo is neither gaining nor losing any information.

Player B denies the request.

Player A requests the undo 1 or 2 more times.

Player B denies those.

...

Player A buys the last Province, with still another Buy available, and at this point is guaranteed to win the game.

Player A then requests an undo.

That is Undo Trolling. I've felt very tempted to do it (as Player A). Is this bad?
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 12:13:10 am by Dingan »
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Re: Undo Trolling
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2017, 01:17:32 am »
+7

Well, I mean, anything that makes the game longer for no particular reason is wasting time you could be spending playing a new game, right?  So if you're wasting your own time just to waste someone else's time, I'd say yes, that's trolling, and no, don't do that, you look like a jerk.
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Re: Undo Trolling
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2017, 07:51:32 am »
+6

I always resign and blacklist after step 3.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Undo Trolling
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2017, 10:12:07 am »
+7

I'm surprised you're even allowed to make an undo request a second time.

The undo system seems weird to me. You should automatically be allowed to undo anything that didn't give you any information, like the Pawn scenario you mention, without needing to ask approval. And you shouldn't be allowed to undo anything that did give information, whether the person gave permission or not.
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O

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Re: Undo Trolling
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2017, 10:28:34 am »
+2

I'm surprised you're even allowed to make an undo request a second time.

The undo system seems weird to me. You should automatically be allowed to undo anything that didn't give you any information, like the Pawn scenario you mention, without needing to ask approval. And you shouldn't be allowed to undo anything that did give information, whether the person gave permission or not.

Why are you for restricting gentleman's agreements on the game? It's frankly none of your business what other people mutually agree to undo.
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Re: Undo Trolling
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2017, 10:44:00 am »
+3

I'm surprised you're even allowed to make an undo request a second time.

The undo system seems weird to me. You should automatically be allowed to undo anything that didn't give you any information, like the Pawn scenario you mention, without needing to ask approval. And you shouldn't be allowed to undo anything that did give information, whether the person gave permission or not.

Why are you for restricting gentleman's agreements on the game? It's frankly none of your business what other people mutually agree to undo.

It's quite a bit of his business if he's also ranked in the same system.
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Re: Undo Trolling
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2017, 11:37:03 am »
+6

I'm surprised you're even allowed to make an undo request a second time.

The undo system seems weird to me. You should automatically be allowed to undo anything that didn't give you any information, like the Pawn scenario you mention, without needing to ask approval. And you shouldn't be allowed to undo anything that did give information, whether the person gave permission or not.

Why are you for restricting gentleman's agreements on the game? It's frankly none of your business what other people mutually agree to undo.

It's quite a bit of his business if he's also ranked in the same system.

In the same way that a universal fiber internet connection and the prohibition of alcohol is his business. It's probably less likely to mess with matchmaking than disconnects, forfeits, drunk players.

It's simply not relevant on any meaningful scale to the ratings of the other people in the pool, so if his concern stems from that area it should be laughed off. There's a tradeoff of "imposing on other people" vs "how it affects me" and this is absurdly on one end of the scale.

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pacovf

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Re: Undo Trolling
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2017, 12:38:16 pm »
0

Do you disagree with this part of his statement, though?

You should automatically be allowed to undo anything that didn't give you any information, like the Pawn scenario you mention, without needing to ask approval.
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Re: Undo Trolling
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2017, 01:08:14 pm »
0

It's simply not relevant on any meaningful scale to the ratings of the other people in the pool, so if his concern stems from that area it should be laughed off. There's a tradeoff of "imposing on other people" vs "how it affects me" and this is absurdly on one end of the scale.

It's pretty easy to justify the argument that everyone in the rating pool should be playing the same game, because if they aren't, there's no point in having them in the same rating pool either. It depends on your individual views whether you consider a game where you're allowed to undo +cards the same as a game where you aren't, and it also depends on your individual views which one you prefer. If the majority of players agree with Gendo, then that's the system that should be implemented.
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Donald X.

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Re: Undo Trolling
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2017, 01:14:56 pm »
+8

The undo system seems weird to me. You should automatically be allowed to undo anything that didn't give you any information, like the Pawn scenario you mention, without needing to ask approval. And you shouldn't be allowed to undo anything that did give information, whether the person gave permission or not.
I wouldn't have programmed undo, just planned on it; too many more important things. Given that there's undo, I would have it work like you say for rated games; for unrated games the "undo request" thing is fine.

IRL I allow undos with no new information, and do not when there's new information.
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Re: Undo Trolling
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2017, 01:57:39 pm »
+15

I wouldn't have programmed undo, just planned on it; too many more important things. Given that there's undo, I would have it work like you say for rated games; for unrated games the "undo request" thing is fine.

IRL I allow undos with no new information, and do not when there's new information.

Jay doesn't involve himself much with the implementation details, but he had one explicit request: please have an undo button. That, and I wanted to have it myself too.
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Donald X.

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Re: Undo Trolling
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2017, 02:52:58 pm »
+6

Jay doesn't involve himself much with the implementation details, but he had one explicit request: please have an undo button. That, and I wanted to have it myself too.
Oh I see. Well, well done then!
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Undo Trolling
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2017, 07:07:49 pm »
+7

I for one would personally love to undo trolling.
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Re: Undo Trolling
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2017, 10:28:05 am »
+1

I always resign and blacklist after step 3.

Why would you resign? If you beat someone who denied you the undo earlier it's so much more glorious  ;)

Personally, most people I've played with thankfully allow the undo, but I blacklist anyone who doesn't. If you have a big engine and you accidentally click the smithy first, even though you've technically gotten a bit of new information, it would be pretty rude for the opponent to deny the undo because 1) the new info doesn't matter, you're drawing your whole deck anyway and 2) it's pretty obvious what happened.
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Re: Undo Trolling
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2017, 11:45:40 am »
+3

It occurs to me that the opponent can't always tell if you're asking to undo something that gave you new information or not. If I play, for example, Hamlet, and then misclick "discard for +Action" when I meant discard for +Buy, I have to click undo to get out of that. But to the opponent, it just looks like I played Hamlet, drawing a card, and now I want to un-play it.
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Re: Undo Trolling
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2017, 12:00:52 pm »
+6

Why would you resign? If you beat someone who denied you the undo earlier it's so much more glorious  ;)

It's much more dramatic to resign.
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Jacob marley

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Re: Undo Trolling
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2017, 02:16:32 pm »
+2

I always resign and blacklist after step 3.

Why would you resign? If you beat someone who denied you the undo earlier it's so much more glorious  ;)

Personally, most people I've played with thankfully allow the undo, but I blacklist anyone who doesn't. If you have a big engine and you accidentally click the smithy first, even though you've technically gotten a bit of new information, it would be pretty rude for the opponent to deny the undo because 1) the new info doesn't matter, you're drawing your whole deck anyway and 2) it's pretty obvious what happened.

Your example is not always that obvious.  Maybe you depend on treasure payload and could play Smithy knowing there is a possibility to dead draw actions, but you are risking that to draw your gold.  Then, if you drew 3 actions, you want an undo.  From where I sit, it's hard to know in advance that you just misclicked the smithy rather than the village next to it.
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Re: Undo Trolling
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2017, 02:51:41 pm »
+4

I always resign and blacklist after step 3.

Why would you resign? If you beat someone who denied you the undo earlier it's so much more glorious  ;)

Personally, most people I've played with thankfully allow the undo, but I blacklist anyone who doesn't. If you have a big engine and you accidentally click the smithy first, even though you've technically gotten a bit of new information, it would be pretty rude for the opponent to deny the undo because 1) the new info doesn't matter, you're drawing your whole deck anyway and 2) it's pretty obvious what happened.

Your example is not always that obvious.  Maybe you depend on treasure payload and could play Smithy knowing there is a possibility to dead draw actions, but you are risking that to draw your gold.  Then, if you drew 3 actions, you want an undo.  From where I sit, it's hard to know in advance that you just misclicked the smithy rather than the village next to it.

If you want to ask for a non-obvious undo, it's probably a good idea to explain the situation to your opponent before requesting it.
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Re: Undo Trolling
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2017, 03:55:55 pm »
0

Agreed
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Re: Undo Trolling
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2017, 03:43:00 am »
0

In digital implementations, undoing a "Play All Treasures" function would've been nice if it costed you buying a Grand Market!

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Re: Undo Trolling
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2017, 07:50:49 am »
+2

I always resign and blacklist after step 3.

Why would you resign? If you beat someone who denied you the undo earlier it's so much more glorious  ;)


You should resign a) because trolls thrive more on rustling people's jimmies for prolonged periods than actually winning games and b) because it's much more useful for mods to have examples of games to pull up in which someone was clearly being trolled and chose to resign and blacklist.
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Re: Undo Trolling
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2017, 09:05:41 am »
+1

In digital implementations, undoing a "Play All Treasures" function would've been nice if it costed you buying a Grand Market!

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Since this is such a common mistake, I think Coppers shouldn't automatically be played in GM games, or when you're buying using Black Market and Grand Market is available.
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Re: Undo Trolling
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2017, 12:15:39 pm »
+1

In digital implementations, undoing a "Play All Treasures" function would've been nice if it costed you buying a Grand Market!

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Since this is such a common mistake, I think Coppers shouldn't automatically be played in GM games, or when you're buying using Black Market and Grand Market is available.

This was a nice feature in Goko, so I'm sure it's on their list of future enhancements. Additionally, it was really nice how it WOULD play the Coppers if you weren't going to be able to afford the Grand Market anyway.
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Re: Undo Trolling
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2017, 12:27:21 pm »
0

Additionally, it was really nice how it WOULD play the Coppers if you weren't going to be able to afford the Grand Market anyway.

Except when you had special Treasures in your hand and could actually afford the Grand Market.
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Re: Undo Trolling
« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2017, 02:34:22 pm »
+6

Now the real example of undo trolling would be if Donald brought back Scout.
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