Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: How do you play double-Jack?  (Read 8834 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9535
  • Respect: +10569
    • View Profile
How do you play double-Jack?
« on: February 14, 2012, 03:12:59 pm »
0

So what is the correct play rules for the double-Jack strategy that is so strong against other BM strategies? Here's what I assume:

Open Jack/Silver.
Buy second Jack as soon as your hit 4.
Always trash an Estate with Jack when you can.
Regular BMU rules beyond that.

So the questions are...
When (if ever) should you trash one Jack with the other?
When should you keep the top card of your deck? Should you keep it if it is an Estate, and you don't have another Estate to trash, so that you can trash it? Should you keep it if it's a copper and it will bring you to exactly $6 or $8?
Are there any other play rules or considerations I didn't mention?
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4380
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: How do you play double-Jack?
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2012, 03:40:06 pm »
0

Never trash the second jack. Don't always trash the estate (early on, of course, you should, but it's not that late when you don't). Probably you keep the card when it will get you to a new threshhold (gold, province). Generally skip estates, with the filter, but also keep track of your reshuffle.
Oh, and if it gets late enough and you haven't gotten the second jack, don't.

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2117
    • View Profile
Re: How do you play double-Jack?
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2012, 04:59:20 pm »
0

So what is the correct play rules for the double-Jack strategy that is so strong against other BM strategies?
First, my usual rant:
Double Jack is not "so strong against other BM strategies". It is almost never the best BM strategy on the board. Sure double Jack beats Smithy+money, but Jack+Smithy+money beats double Jack. Similarly with Envoy. And Courtyard+money beats double Jack straight-up. I posted in another thread that double Jack also loses to a Jack opening into practically any decent $5 card (bazaar, cartographer, council room, duke, embassy, explorer, festival, inn, lab, library, mechant ship, mountebank, rabble, royal seal, stables, stash, torturer, treasury, vault, venture, wharf, witch). Jack is a great opening for BM strategies, but it's just an opening...
/double-jack-is-overrated-rant

So play strategy for Jack:
Early on, a discarded estate will likely be replaced by copper, so the question is if you're at a critical price point. If you have $5 in hand, you probably want to discard it to hope for a copper to get you to $6 and a gold. If you have only $4 in hand, you may want to keep the estate to trash, unless there is a $5 card such that you'd rather have the 5 and an estate rather than a 4/silver and no estate.
If it's a copper on top, it's probably not worth potentially missing a gold/province just to cycle the one copper, so I keep it.
You basically never want to trash an action card (like a second Jack) with Jack. If you had a good reason to buy it, you probably want to keep it.
Logged

Davio

  • 2012 Dutch Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4786
  • Respect: +3405
    • View Profile
Re: How do you play double-Jack?
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2012, 04:33:10 am »
0

If you don't know how to play DoubleJack, you can play SingleJack as well, the difference is marginal anyway. :)

I simulated this on Dominiate and Geronimoo's sim: Dominiate has single as a slight favourite and with Geronimoo's it's the other way around.

But whatever you do, be sure you're the first player; Jack massively favours the first player.
Logged

BSG: Cagprezimal Adama
Mage Knight: Arythea

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4380
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: How do you play double-Jack?
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2012, 09:14:24 am »
0

But whatever you do, be sure you're the first player; Jack massively favours the first player.
No, it doesn't. Jack has 1st-player advantage that's only minutely smaller than big money.

Davio

  • 2012 Dutch Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4786
  • Respect: +3405
    • View Profile
Re: How do you play double-Jack?
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2012, 09:58:40 am »
0

But whatever you do, be sure you're the first player; Jack massively favours the first player.
No, it doesn't. Jack has 1st-player advantage that's only minutely smaller than big money.
Hmm, my simulator tends to disagree, but maybe I'm using it wrong. If I check "keep player order" the first player smokes the second when they're using the same Jack strategy...
Logged

BSG: Cagprezimal Adama
Mage Knight: Arythea

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4380
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: How do you play double-Jack?
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2012, 10:07:31 am »
0

But whatever you do, be sure you're the first player; Jack massively favours the first player.
No, it doesn't. Jack has 1st-player advantage that's only minutely smaller than big money.
Hmm, my simulator tends to disagree, but maybe I'm using it wrong. If I check "keep player order" the first player smokes the second when they're using the same Jack strategy...
How much is 'smokes'?

Davio

  • 2012 Dutch Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4786
  • Respect: +3405
    • View Profile
Re: How do you play double-Jack?
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2012, 10:22:43 am »
0

Jack: 55%-38%-6%

BMU = 51%-40%-8%

So maybe not "smokes", but a mirror match may not be the best thing for the 2nd player with only 38% chance of winning.
Logged

BSG: Cagprezimal Adama
Mage Knight: Arythea

DG

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4074
  • Respect: +2624
    • View Profile
Re: How do you play double-Jack?
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2012, 12:25:49 pm »
0

Any accelerated game has higher first player advantage. The PPR is more significant in fast games too. I would see jack-of-all-trades fitting into this general rule rather than having unique first player advantage.
Logged

Honkeyfresh

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 569
  • DSF lowest ratio upvotes-posts 14 yrs & counting
  • Respect: +192
    • View Profile
Re: How do you play double-Jack?
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2015, 01:03:11 pm »
0

Never trash the second jack. Don't always trash the estate (early on, of course, you should, but it's not that late when you don't). Probably you keep the card when it will get you to a new threshhold (gold, province). Generally skip estates, with the filter, but also keep track of your reshuffle.
Oh, and if it gets late enough and you haven't gotten the second jack, don't.

I'm confused.  How can you say never trash your second JOAT, and that if it gets too late and you don't have a 2nd JOAT don't get one?   This seems to conflict as to whether the 2nd one is helpful or harmful during the end game.  I often feel my hands get bogged down with double jack, but everyone seems to love it, and most of them are smarter than me...
Logged
"Rap game Julio Franco, Chuck Norris, Texas Ranger/ Ice on my fingers look like I slap-boxed a penguin." -- Riff Raff Proverbs 4:20

"Sometimes I say some things people may think are just outlandish, but I'm going to have the last laugh." -- Riff Raff  Exodus 6:66

Chris is me

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2745
  • Shuffle iT Username: Chris is me
  • What do you want me to say?
  • Respect: +3456
    • View Profile
Re: How do you play double-Jack?
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2015, 01:14:56 pm »
+3

Never trash the second jack. Don't always trash the estate (early on, of course, you should, but it's not that late when you don't). Probably you keep the card when it will get you to a new threshhold (gold, province). Generally skip estates, with the filter, but also keep track of your reshuffle.
Oh, and if it gets late enough and you haven't gotten the second jack, don't.

I'm confused.  How can you say never trash your second JOAT, and that if it gets too late and you don't have a 2nd JOAT don't get one?   This seems to conflict as to whether the 2nd one is helpful or harmful during the end game.  I often feel my hands get bogged down with double jack, but everyone seems to love it, and most of them are smarter than me...

There's a big difference between trashing a card you have and buying a card. Don't buy a second Jack late because then you can instead buy a Duchy / Silver / Estate; the opportunity cost of buying a Jack is not being able to buy other things. Opportunity cost of not trashing a Jack is very low.
Logged
Twitch channel: http://www.twitch.tv/chrisisme2791

bug me on discord

pm me if you wanna do stuff for the blog

they/them

Mic Qsenoch

  • 2015 DS Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1706
  • Respect: +4324
    • View Profile
Re: How do you play double-Jack?
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2015, 01:19:22 pm »
+3

Never trash the second jack. Don't always trash the estate (early on, of course, you should, but it's not that late when you don't). Probably you keep the card when it will get you to a new threshhold (gold, province). Generally skip estates, with the filter, but also keep track of your reshuffle.
Oh, and if it gets late enough and you haven't gotten the second jack, don't.

I'm confused.  How can you say never trash your second JOAT, and that if it gets too late and you don't have a 2nd JOAT don't get one?   This seems to conflict as to whether the 2nd one is helpful or harmful during the end game.  I often feel my hands get bogged down with double jack, but everyone seems to love it, and most of them are smarter than me...

The two things aren't equivalent, they are:
Jack -> Nothing (trashing Jack)
vs.
Jack -> Silver (buying Silver instead of Jack if it's late enough (or whatever you buy instead of Jack))

I wouldn't worry about learning to play pure DoubleJack + treasures really well though. It's rare that you don't want some other action cards in the mix, whether's it's nonterminals or some other terminals instead of (or in addition to) a second Jack. Even assuming you are building a deck that isn't particularly enginey.
Logged

Honkeyfresh

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 569
  • DSF lowest ratio upvotes-posts 14 yrs & counting
  • Respect: +192
    • View Profile
Re: How do you play double-Jack?
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2015, 01:25:58 pm »
0

Never trash the second jack. Don't always trash the estate (early on, of course, you should, but it's not that late when you don't). Probably you keep the card when it will get you to a new threshhold (gold, province). Generally skip estates, with the filter, but also keep track of your reshuffle.
Oh, and if it gets late enough and you haven't gotten the second jack, don't.

I'm confused.  How can you say never trash your second JOAT, and that if it gets too late and you don't have a 2nd JOAT don't get one?   This seems to conflict as to whether the 2nd one is helpful or harmful during the end game.  I often feel my hands get bogged down with double jack, but everyone seems to love it, and most of them are smarter than me...

There's a big difference between trashing a card you have and buying a card. Don't buy a second Jack late because then you can instead buy a Duchy / Silver / Estate; the opportunity cost of buying a Jack is not being able to buy other things. Opportunity cost of not trashing a Jack is very low.

I could see buying a duchy over second JOAT, but I imagine buying another silver would be unnecessary as u prolly decently packed with silver from the first one, and the second one will add more silvers soon.

I guess underlying all of this is my confusion as to why doublejack is seen as so much better than a single Jack. Then again I been trashing estates through peeking, and apparently I should just be sifting past em.  So maybe I just am playing it suboptimally.
Logged
"Rap game Julio Franco, Chuck Norris, Texas Ranger/ Ice on my fingers look like I slap-boxed a penguin." -- Riff Raff Proverbs 4:20

"Sometimes I say some things people may think are just outlandish, but I'm going to have the last laugh." -- Riff Raff  Exodus 6:66

popsofctown

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5477
  • Respect: +2856
    • View Profile
Re: How do you play double-Jack?
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2015, 02:04:39 pm »
+4

Double Jack isn't about looking at a ten card kingdom, deciding turn 0 that you are going to play DoubleJack no matter what, and launching DoubleJack subroutine.  It's about opening Jack to see what happens, then getting draws that push you towards the strategy, like hitting 5+ on neither turn 3 or 4, or hitting 3$ and 6$ exactly on turn 3 and turn 4 and then getting offered a second Jack purchase the next reshuffle. 

Simulating Doublejack vesus "SingleJack" seems very much like missing the point.  They should not be treated as discrete different strategies.  I'm positive that "double jack is better" in the sense that if you have a bot that buys a Jack and is open to buying a second Jack depending on how his draws go versus a bot that buys a Jack and is forbidden from buying Jack ever again, the first bot will win.  But that's not "double jack versus single jack", it's monojack versus flawed monojack.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2015, 02:06:27 pm by popsofctown »
Logged

Honkeyfresh

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 569
  • DSF lowest ratio upvotes-posts 14 yrs & counting
  • Respect: +192
    • View Profile
Re: How do you play double-Jack?
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2015, 02:22:33 pm »
0

Double Jack isn't about looking at a ten card kingdom, deciding turn 0 that you are going to play DoubleJack no matter what, and launching DoubleJack subroutine.  It's about opening Jack to see what happens, then getting draws that push you towards the strategy, like hitting 5+ on neither turn 3 or 4, or hitting 3$ and 6$ exactly on turn 3 and turn 4 and then getting offered a second Jack purchase the next reshuffle. 

Simulating Doublejack vesus "SingleJack" seems very much like missing the point.  They should not be treated as discrete different strategies.  I'm positive that "double jack is better" in the sense that if you have a bot that buys a Jack and is open to buying a second Jack depending on how his draws go versus a bot that buys a Jack and is forbidden from buying Jack ever again, the first bot will win.  But that's not "double jack versus single jack", it's monojack versus flawed monojack.

Thanks.  This is the kind of guy i was referencing above...   8)

This makes more sense now. 

Logged
"Rap game Julio Franco, Chuck Norris, Texas Ranger/ Ice on my fingers look like I slap-boxed a penguin." -- Riff Raff Proverbs 4:20

"Sometimes I say some things people may think are just outlandish, but I'm going to have the last laugh." -- Riff Raff  Exodus 6:66

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8172
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9619
    • View Profile
Re: How do you play double-Jack?
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2015, 03:47:09 pm »
0

I look for powerful Kingdom Treasures if Jack is on the board, namely Counterfeit, which fills in all the things Jack can't do very nicely. I haven't tried Jack/Treasure Trove yet, but that might be interesting.

The reason why Jack does so well with itself is that it's constantly adding Treasures to your deck, so a light engine really is not going to draw your deck. Look for ways to take advantage of Jack's "up to" style of drawing (like Fishing Village), or just resign yourself to hoping Jack doesn't collide with whatever else you throw in there.
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

AdamH

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2829
  • Shuffle iT Username: Adam Horton
  • You make your own shuffle luck
  • Respect: +3878
    • View Profile
    • My Dominion Videos
Re: How do you play double-Jack?
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2015, 04:15:22 pm »
+2

Counterfeit is about the only kingdom treasure that I'll get excited about playing with Jack. The rest are just slight optimizations or consolations prizes, that includes Treasure Trove.

I wrote an article a while back, and the "Enablers for Jack in a money deck" section may be particularly relevant here.

Knowing precisely the rules for when to discard or top-deck with Jack when you're playing a one-card kingdom is missing the point, you get to see a lot of information to inform your decision here before you actually have to make it, so referring to a rule here is just not going to be as good as using your noodle when the time comes. Trashing your Estates early is really good, so try and do that.

Don't let anyone tell you unbreakable rules about how to play Dominion -- those rules don't exist. Sure, advice can guide you and help you understand things, but if you play Simulator-Approved DoubleJackô against a guy who does something that looks inferior and you lose, your reaction shouldn't be "I just lost a game where I should have won 71.55% of the time! Shenanigans!" but rather "how could I have played better?"
Logged
Visit my blog for links to a whole bunch of Dominion content I've made.

ancientcampus

  • Navigator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 76
  • Respect: +52
    • View Profile
Re: How do you play double-Jack?
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2015, 08:37:27 pm »
0

Quote
Sure double Jack beats Smithy+money, but Jack+Smithy+money beats double Jack. Similarly with Envoy. And Courtyard+money beats double Jack straight-up.
Really?? It's like everything I know is wrong.

jomini

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1057
  • Respect: +760
    • View Profile
Re: How do you play double-Jack?
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2015, 12:30:12 am »
0

I look for powerful Kingdom Treasures if Jack is on the board, namely Counterfeit, which fills in all the things Jack can't do very nicely. I haven't tried Jack/Treasure Trove yet, but that might be interesting.

The reason why Jack does so well with itself is that it's constantly adding Treasures to your deck, so a light engine really is not going to draw your deck. Look for ways to take advantage of Jack's "up to" style of drawing (like Fishing Village), or just resign yourself to hoping Jack doesn't collide with whatever else you throw in there.

Very, very few of them are any good outside of niche cases. Counterfeit is extremely good with just about any treasure gain, though I will grant that de-coppering the deck is bigger for Jack than most (as is the +buy).

Treasure trove looks to be fairly self-limiting. First it has the opportunity cost of it not being a duchy, this is pretty huge if you hit early $6 (common for Jack). Second,gaining the functional equivalent of two silvers isn't that wonderful, not only is the gold delayed a turn, but it comes with copper dilution.

Other cards like Venture or Royal Seal are not actively bad with Jack, but Venture has less green to sift (this hand) and Royal seal is less useful if the only things to top deck are treasures. Loan, flips fewer estates than normal, will quickly start discarding silvers, and of course will flip the odd Jack. Cache not that great, you will build hand value well enough most of the time without it and it is worse than a curse during a late game where provinces fly away quickly as singletons with low odds of hitting $10. Bank is only going to be better than Gold only on hands of Silver/Copper x2 or Copper x4, sure grab it with $7, but mostly it does nothing special; likewise Cache is mostly a meh. Coin of the realm is worse with Jack as you lose the space efficiency, and have a flood of cards when you really want reliability or megaturns lining up. Plenty of other treasure cards hate coin bloat - Quarry, Talisman, and Stash to name just a few while the one that might really like it - Pstone means that Potions compete with Gold & Silver and fast games with maybe 2 gains per turn just don't build enough Pstone value fast enough (maybe rarely on a particularly bad colony board).

About the only ones I could see would be something like Hoard - you can afford sooner greening when you can Jack away estates; but I'm skeptical or Harem - very nice to have to play with when you have a 1 point differential (e.g. he kept an extra estate, I can buy the Harem, be up a point, and have better odds of hitting Duchy/Province next turn). Even these are pretty weak stuff.
Logged

Chris is me

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2745
  • Shuffle iT Username: Chris is me
  • What do you want me to say?
  • Respect: +3456
    • View Profile
Re: How do you play double-Jack?
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2015, 11:06:57 am »
0

I look for powerful Kingdom Treasures if Jack is on the board, namely Counterfeit, which fills in all the things Jack can't do very nicely. I haven't tried Jack/Treasure Trove yet, but that might be interesting.

The reason why Jack does so well with itself is that it's constantly adding Treasures to your deck, so a light engine really is not going to draw your deck. Look for ways to take advantage of Jack's "up to" style of drawing (like Fishing Village), or just resign yourself to hoping Jack doesn't collide with whatever else you throw in there.

Very, very few of them are any good outside of niche cases. Counterfeit is extremely good with just about any treasure gain, though I will grant that de-coppering the deck is bigger for Jack than most (as is the +buy).

Treasure trove looks to be fairly self-limiting. First it has the opportunity cost of it not being a duchy, this is pretty huge if you hit early $6 (common for Jack). Second,gaining the functional equivalent of two silvers isn't that wonderful, not only is the gold delayed a turn, but it comes with copper dilution.

You're really understating how good Treasure Trove is in BM decks. You can't say gaining the equivalent of two silvers a shuffle isn't that good, when the whole reason Jack-BM works is because.. it gains two silvers a shuffle. Plus a Gold and a Copper is more useful than two Silvers, really - you can potentially sift past Copper or sift into Gold using Jack, making it marginally better.

Quote
Other cards like Venture or Royal Seal are not actively bad with Jack, but Venture has less green to sift (this hand) and Royal seal is less useful if the only things to top deck are treasures. Loan, flips fewer estates than normal, will quickly start discarding silvers, and of course will flip the odd Jack.

Loan is pretty decent as an opener with Jack. Don't really care what it flips honestly; people overstate how bad it is to have Loan flip something you wanted honestly, and it thins your deck of Copper which Jack can't do.

Quote
Coin of the realm is worse with Jack as you lose the space efficiency, and have a flood of cards when you really want reliability or megaturns lining up.

What? Why would you want a megaturn with a Jack deck? A Coin of the Realm or two is just fine - you just reserve it and use it to resolve collision. It lets you run a few extra terminals. Nothing wrong with it.

Quote
About the only ones I could see would be something like Hoard - you can afford sooner greening when you can Jack away estates; but I'm skeptical or Harem - very nice to have to play with when you have a 1 point differential (e.g. he kept an extra estate, I can buy the Harem, be up a point, and have better odds of hitting Duchy/Province next turn). Even these are pretty weak stuff.

You wouldn't Hoard Estates for Gold as often as you'd use it to keep your money density up as you buy Provinces and Duchies. Works pretty well. These aren't exactly game breaking combos but you're understating their value.
Logged
Twitch channel: http://www.twitch.tv/chrisisme2791

bug me on discord

pm me if you wanna do stuff for the blog

they/them

jomini

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1057
  • Respect: +760
    • View Profile
Re: How do you play double-Jack?
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2015, 01:41:25 pm »
0

Chris:

The point isn't that Trove and the like are bad with Jack, just that they don't add as much to a Jack deck as to other decks. Take something like Smithy/Trove. Trove adds a lot there because a Smithy deck starts to drift downward pretty quick on treasure density as you green so adding a Copper/Gold combo with a Silver this turn is pretty decent. Jack already does this deck addition. Jack also is just so blindingly fast that you will have a lot of games where you don't have time to buy a Trove because you hit early $6 (which I think are better spent on golds than down-buying a Trove) and Duchy comes quick in Jack games.

Or put it this way say Trove generally has a value of X; Jack/Trove is a bit more like X-a. X-a may be good enough to buy, but I don't think it makes a real combo.

Likewise with Loan. Loan doesn't get actively bad, it just isn't as good as normal. The first Loan play is just getting back to where you started before you bought a trashing copper. Two or three shuffles after than you've presumably gained 5 or 6 treasures (golds and silver) so now you are better than even odds of just dumping something good. Loan has a much harder time to kill coppers when you are adding lots of silver to the deck.

CotR, sure you can add another terminal or two ... but if you are running Jack decks (rather than Jack as an opener to some sort of engine or megaturn), CotR just doesn't do as much. Say for pure double jack, at best CotR allows you to sift an extra card and gain an extra silver ... which is nice, but not terribly common and again is worth less than normal.

Jack/Treasure has the real problem that it has to compete with oh, say Jack/Anything else. Jack/Alt-VP is a thing for most alt-VP, Jack/Engine is a very quick way to ramp up to multiple components a turn, even Jack/TfB can be a contender. Jack/Counterfeit has been competitive enough that I might not go for some engines, I cannot think of a board where I'd go Jack/Loan over much anything that competes with it.
Logged
Pages: [1]
 

Page created in 0.053 seconds with 21 queries.