Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 5  All

Author Topic: All previous turns occasionally visible in Isotropic games  (Read 36914 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

ackack

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 302
  • Respect: +19
    • View Profile
All previous turns occasionally visible in Isotropic games
« on: June 24, 2011, 05:46:17 pm »
0

I just played a game where I was able to scroll back through all of the previous turns of the game. This is not the first time it has happened to me, and another friend of mine noticed the same thing. I queried my opponent to see if he had any clue about it, and it turns out he didn't have access to all of the previous turns! The game in question:

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201106/24/game-20110624-141013-bab97920.html

It was a direct challenge and not an automatch. The point tracker was off.

I (and my friend who has reported seeing the same thing) use Chrome.
Logged

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5499
  • Respect: +22174
    • View Profile
Re: All previous turns occasionally visible in Isotropic games
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2011, 06:37:35 pm »
0

I just played a game where I was able to scroll back through all of the previous turns of the game.
I have seen this too; Doug knows about it and did not see why it was happening. If you get more data, send it in.
Logged

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2096
    • View Profile
Re: All previous turns occasionally visible in Isotropic games
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2011, 06:59:32 pm »
0

I've seen this happen quite a bit. I assumed he was mixing it in to take some statistics about how much longer it takes for people to play when the full log is available (because they scroll back to count cards, etc.) or something. Too bad its just a bug :(.
Logged

Personman

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 230
  • Respect: +62
    • View Profile
    • My Friendfeed
Re: All previous turns occasionally visible in Isotropic games
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2011, 07:13:50 pm »
0

I've seen this happen quite a bit. I assumed he was mixing it in to take some statistics about how much longer it takes for people to play when the full log is available (because they scroll back to count cards, etc.) or something. Too bad its just a bug :(.

Ha, the same thing occurred to me, though I didn't think it was very likely. It is very sad that it's just a bug.

I really, really, really want this to be a toggleable option. I can't stand the disappearing log, and it makes me feel bad for not bothering to copy-paste each turn into a text file before it disappears.
Logged
My youtube channel. Isoptropic games with commentary!

guided

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 940
  • Respect: +88
    • View Profile
Re: All previous turns occasionally visible in Isotropic games
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2011, 07:16:06 pm »
0

I was really glad to see the change (not too long ago) that started truncating the log in-game.

Though I'm really sad to see that I get 404s on all isotropic-hosted game logs now :( Nobody else has this problem, which makes no sense. 404 errors shouldn't be user-specific....
Logged

Teproc

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 765
  • Shuffle iT Username: Teproc
  • aka Le Teproc
  • Respect: +355
    • View Profile
Re: All previous turns occasionally visible in Isotropic games
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2011, 08:14:42 pm »
0

I've seen this happen quite a bit. I assumed he was mixing it in to take some statistics about how much longer it takes for people to play when the full log is available (because they scroll back to count cards, etc.) or something. Too bad its just a bug :(.

Ha, the same thing occurred to me, though I didn't think it was very likely. It is very sad that it's just a bug.

I really, really, really want this to be a toggleable option. I can't stand the disappearing log, and it makes me feel bad for not bothering to copy-paste each turn into a text file before it disappears.

Really ? I mean, really ? I understand being competitive but, if you're going to be competitive, why not just pay attention instead of going into all that trouble ?

I actually like the disappearing log a lot, even though I'm lazy so it usually doesn't serves me well, but being able to go back always felt unnatural to me, because it wouldn't be possible for any non-Rainman person in "real" Dominion.
Logged
Mafia play advice: If you are not content with the way the game is going, always assume that it is your fault.

Eagle

  • Baron
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 54
  • Respect: +2
    • View Profile
Re: All previous turns occasionally visible in Isotropic games
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2011, 08:23:17 pm »
0

Having that cursed! (yeah, that's kindof a pun) log disapper makes this game playable on an iPad..  I was so glad to see it go!
Logged

Personman

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 230
  • Respect: +62
    • View Profile
    • My Friendfeed
Re: All previous turns occasionally visible in Isotropic games
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2011, 08:40:44 pm »
0

Quote from: Teproc link=topic=175.msg1808#msg1808
Really ? I mean, really ? I understand being competitive but, if you're going to be competitive, why not just pay attention instead of going into all that trouble ?

It's really less about being competitive than it is about having fun. Poring over the log to figure out which cards I've played this time through my deck so that I can make better decisions was one of the things I enjoyed the most about isotropic, and one of the (many) reasons why I prefer it to playing in person.

That's a personal reason though, and many people will find it silly, which is fine. There is a real, concrete reason to prefer a non-fading log. It's the same reason why a point counter is essential in a competitive online context:

1. We would like the ladder to reflect skill at Dominion rather than at manipulating a computer.
2. You cannot stop players from keeping score/copying the log in an online context.
3. The activities in 2. confer an obvious advantage over players not utilizing them.
4. The only way to achieve 1. in an online context is to level the playing field by providing those capabilities to all players in a standardized fashion.
Logged
My youtube channel. Isoptropic games with commentary!

guided

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 940
  • Respect: +88
    • View Profile
Re: All previous turns occasionally visible in Isotropic games
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2011, 09:09:07 pm »
0

Most people do not find it fun when their opponent spends a bunch of time scrolling up and poring over the log, which (honestly) most people are going to do if they can and they find it matters, even if they find it annoying when other people do that. Truncating the log makes isotropic more fun for... I'll go out on a limb and say everyone except you :P

Feeling the way you do, I suggest using the built-in point counter for all games you propose and refusing to accept proposals without it. People who want to publicly track the trackable information are very well-catered to with the addition of the point counter. If you additionally want to use some sort of extension that tracks the entire composition of everyone's deck I'm sure pretty much nobody who's willing to play with the point counter will object, and by and large they'll be glad they don't have to wait for you to scroll through the log.

Personally, I'm thrilled the log is no longer available, because my opponents don't waste my time scouring it for information, and I don't waste their time doing the same myself. It makes for a breezier, more fun experience for me all around. I don't use the point counter for games I propose, but I'm happy to accept proposals with the point counter and will use it when it's available.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2011, 09:12:07 pm by guided »
Logged

Personman

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 230
  • Respect: +62
    • View Profile
    • My Friendfeed
Re: All previous turns occasionally visible in Isotropic games
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2011, 10:16:38 pm »
0

Most people do not find it fun when their opponent spends a bunch of time scrolling up and poring over the log, which (honestly) most people are going to do if they can and they find it matters, even if they find it annoying when other people do that.

If my opponent is taking a long time I switch tabs and do something else for a second -- and besides, this is why we have a 3 minute time limit.

Quote
Truncating the log makes isotropic more fun for... I'll go out on a limb and say everyone except you :P

You're just wrong -- when it first happened I made a point of bringing it up in every game I played with a serious player. This was a small sample, maybe 8 people, but at least 3 totally agreed with me that they wanted the log back, 2 or 3 really liked it the new way, and a few were like "uh, there was a log before?"

I also know three other people IRL who agree with me.

Quote
Feeling the way you do, I suggest using the built-in point counter for all games you propose and refusing to accept proposals without it. People who want to publicly track the trackable information are very well-catered to with the addition of the point counter.

I use drheld's extension and the built-in point counter with disabling turned off in every game I play.

Quote
If you additionally want to use some sort of extension that tracks the entire composition of everyone's deck I'm sure pretty much nobody who's willing to play with the point counter will object, and by and large they'll be glad they don't have to wait for you to scroll through the log.

Yeah, I pretty much want to write this. It sounds like a lot of work though :/

Quote
Personally, I'm thrilled the log is no longer available, because my opponents don't waste my time scouring it for information, and I don't waste their time doing the same myself. It makes for a breezier, more fun experience for me all around. I don't use the point counter for games I propose, but I'm happy to accept proposals with the point counter and will use it when it's available.

It's great that some people are made happier by the change; it's obviously a useful feature for many users. It would just be really nice if it were an option, like the point counter.
Logged
My youtube channel. Isoptropic games with commentary!

Deadlock39

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1722
  • Respect: +1748
    • View Profile
Re: All previous turns occasionally visible in Isotropic games
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2011, 10:32:09 pm »
0

I was really glad to see the change (not too long ago) that started truncating the log in-game.

Though I'm really sad to see that I get 404s on all isotropic-hosted game logs now :( Nobody else has this problem, which makes no sense. 404 errors shouldn't be user-specific....

You are not alone.  I am getting this too now, except only at work.  I suspect a proxy issue or something.  The sad part is when it is a link from the current day, and I can't just pull it up on Councilroom.

Geronimoo

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1047
  • Respect: +844
    • View Profile
    • Geronimoo's Dominion Simulator
Re: All previous turns occasionally visible in Isotropic games
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2011, 03:09:35 am »
0

I was really glad to see the change (not too long ago) that started truncating the log in-game.

Though I'm really sad to see that I get 404s on all isotropic-hosted game logs now :( Nobody else has this problem, which makes no sense. 404 errors shouldn't be user-specific....

You are not alone.  I am getting this too now, except only at work.  I suspect a proxy issue or something.  The sad part is when it is a link from the current day, and I can't just pull it up on Councilroom.

I'm getting this as well at work. I did find a work-around:
add ".gz" to the game log's URL, now I get the compressed version which I'm able to open
Logged

SixDaysShort

  • Swindler
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15
  • Respect: 0
    • View Profile
Re: All previous turns occasionally visible in Isotropic games
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2011, 11:49:00 am »
0

In the dozen-or-so times I've played on my phone, it's happened 100% of the time.  Because of the inconvenience of scrolling on a phone, it's made me stop trying. 
Logged

Randal FTW

  • Scout
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 41
  • Respect: 0
    • View Profile
Re: All previous turns occasionally visible in Isotropic games
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2011, 02:20:29 pm »
0

Yeah when I first started playing the log was always there. In my experience since he added the point tracker options it only shows up ~10% of the time now.
Logged
With No Power Comes No Responsibility

Exuberance

  • Pawn
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3
  • Respect: +1
    • View Profile
Re: All previous turns occasionally visible in Isotropic games
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2011, 07:36:51 am »
0

For those playing from your phone or other iOS device try the text interface. It scrolls differently and is totally playable in my experience. The only thing that doesn't work is changing the order of cards (i.e. Scout, Stash, Navigator). YMMV
Logged

Death to Sea Hags

  • Thief
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 90
  • Respect: +20
    • View Profile
Re: All previous turns occasionally visible in Isotropic games
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2011, 12:44:18 pm »
0

Truncating the log makes isotropic more fun for... I'll go out on a limb and say everyone except you :P

You're just wrong -- when it first happened I made a point of bringing it up in every game I played with a serious player. This was a small sample, maybe 8 people, but at least 3 totally agreed with me that they wanted the log back, 2 or 3 really liked it the new way, and a few were like "uh, there was a log before?"

I also know three other people IRL who agree with me.

I agree, but for different reasons than Personman.  I play while doing other things - like folding laundry, or emptying the dishwasher, etc... so it's very nice to be able to play without having to pay attention to everything my opponent does.  If it was important, I can quickly ctrl-F and go find it.
Logged

guided

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 940
  • Respect: +88
    • View Profile
Re: All previous turns occasionally visible in Isotropic games
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2011, 02:45:14 pm »
0

I agree, but for different reasons than Personman.  I play while doing other things - like folding laundry, or emptying the dishwasher, etc... so it's very nice to be able to play without having to pay attention to everything my opponent does.  If it was important, I can quickly ctrl-F and go find it.
Your opponent's most recent turn is still visible.
Logged

Stoc

  • Alchemist
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38
  • Respect: +1
    • View Profile
Re: All previous turns occasionally visible in Isotropic games
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2011, 03:37:44 pm »
0

I agree, but for different reasons than Personman.  I play while doing other things - like folding laundry, or emptying the dishwasher, etc... so it's very nice to be able to play without having to pay attention to everything my opponent does.  If it was important, I can quickly ctrl-F and go find it.
Your opponent's most recent turn is still visible.
From time to time, I play with friends while I'm at work. There's been more than one occasion where I tab back to take a 'trivial' turn, like buy a province with an all-money hand, quickly before tabbing out again in order to keep them from having to wait. I used to be able to go back a couple turns, but now I can't. It's enough of an edge case that it's not really a problem for me, but it is the main reason I miss about the old way (or more specifically, wish there was a toggle).
Logged

guided

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 940
  • Respect: +88
    • View Profile
Re: All previous turns occasionally visible in Isotropic games
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2011, 03:40:53 pm »
0

I do not have much sympathy for the position that you two wish you could still make your opponent sit and wait while you go back and read about the things that happened while you weren't paying attention :P
Logged

Personman

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 230
  • Respect: +62
    • View Profile
    • My Friendfeed
Re: All previous turns occasionally visible in Isotropic games
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2011, 04:03:20 pm »
0

I do not have much sympathy for the position that you two wish you could still make your opponent sit and wait while you go back and read about the things that happened while you weren't paying attention :P

Why not? Sometimes life intrudes. The right play now is to come back once every three minutes and play a single Treasure card until the RL crisis passes, instead of quickly taking your turn and then taking < 1 minute later to read back over the log.
Logged
My youtube channel. Isoptropic games with commentary!

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4368
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: All previous turns occasionally visible in Isotropic games
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2011, 04:07:53 pm »
0

I do not have much sympathy for the position that you two wish you could still make your opponent sit and wait while you go back and read about the things that happened while you weren't paying attention :P

Why not? Sometimes life intrudes. The right play now is to come back once every three minutes and play a single Treasure card until the RL crisis passes, instead of quickly taking your turn and then taking < 1 minute later to read back over the log.

If there's a real RL crisis, I really don't care what's going on in my dominion game.
Besides, it doesn't take the system all that long to re-equilibrate the ratings

Personman

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 230
  • Respect: +62
    • View Profile
    • My Friendfeed
Re: All previous turns occasionally visible in Isotropic games
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2011, 04:16:19 pm »
0

I guess 'crisis' was too strong a word. Maybe you got a quick phone call -- now you're punished for playing a turn quickly while you talk instead of keeping your opponent waiting.
Logged
My youtube channel. Isoptropic games with commentary!

guided

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 940
  • Respect: +88
    • View Profile
Re: All previous turns occasionally visible in Isotropic games
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2011, 04:45:54 pm »
0

The right play now is to come back once every three minutes and play a single Treasure card until the RL crisis passes, instead of quickly taking your turn and then taking < 1 minute later to read back over the log.
No, the right play is to resign, or to play quickly and not worry too much about the information you missed while you weren't paying attention to the game. It's inconsiderate to make your opponent wait without recourse for any length of time while you do something other than playing the game. A RL crisis is your own problem, and it's not your prerogative to unilaterally make it your opponent's problem. If isotropic could magically detect that you've gone AFK and instantly offer your opponent the option to force your resignation, I would be OK with that. And that includes being OK with occasionally being forced to resign myself. Again, you're not going to earn my sympathy by complaining that it's become inconvenient for you to waste people's time.
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4368
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: All previous turns occasionally visible in Isotropic games
« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2011, 04:49:22 pm »
0

And if it's just something like a phone call, A 30-60 second one-time break isn't so bad, and then getting back to the game. I don't really mind this when it happens to me, and I have to do it sometimes.

Personman

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 230
  • Respect: +62
    • View Profile
    • My Friendfeed
Re: All previous turns occasionally visible in Isotropic games
« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2011, 05:03:38 pm »
0

The right play now is to come back once every three minutes and play a single Treasure card until the RL crisis passes, instead of quickly taking your turn and then taking < 1 minute later to read back over the log.
No, the right play is to resign, or to play quickly and not worry too much about the information you missed while you weren't paying attention to the game.

When I say 'the right play' I do not mean 'the polite play', I mean 'the play most likely to make you win'. I'm not encouraging anyone to do it, I'm pointing out that the system encourages people to, thus rewarding jerks and punishing nice folks. And that's a bad thing!

Quote
It's inconsiderate to make your opponent wait without recourse for any length of time while you do something other than playing the game.

I strongly disagree. It's inconsiderate to expect your opponent to be the same person as you. The internet is a big place, and all kinds of people want to be able to have fun. Some people are at work. Some people have kids. Not everyone can remove themselves from distraction so completely, and while we do have to impose sanity checks (ie, the time limit) I believe it is good policy to be as welcoming and kind to people who can't devote themselves 100% to online Dominion as those who can.
Logged
My youtube channel. Isoptropic games with commentary!
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 5  All
 

Page created in 0.168 seconds with 22 queries.