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[ehunt]

I think the decision is not easy, whether you split 5/2 or 4/3.

No colonies, no shelters

Events:
Scouting Party
----
Cellar
Moat
Scrying Pool
Forager
Cutpurse
Navigator
Sauna/Avanto
Count
Upgrade
Farmland

[Mic Qsenoch]

5/2: Count, Scouting Party
2/5: Cellar (Nothing?) / Count
4/3(3/4): Potion/Forager

[Chris is me]

I think Potion / Silver gives you the most flexibility here; you can pivot to Sauna for trash and grab Pools right away, or if you hit $5 instead of $4 you can go Count or Upgrade.

Forager is okay here and might actually be good enough that you open it anyway, because you eventually need the +Buy and end up doing some weird thing with Count's copper gain to sustain it. So maybe Potion Forager is actually correct.

[Awaclus]

I think Potion / Silver gives you the most flexibility here; you can pivot to Sauna for trash and grab Pools right away, or if you hit $5 instead of $4 you can go Count or Upgrade.

Forager is okay here and might actually be good enough that you open it anyway, because you eventually need the +Buy and end up doing some weird thing with Count's copper gain to sustain it. So maybe Potion Forager is actually correct.

I certainly like a Forager opening. I'm not sure if I would open Forager/Potion or Forager/Sauna though. The Sauna/Avanto and Scrying Pool splits are both kind of important, but you can make up for losing one by winning the other.

[2.71828.....]

I think sauna/avanto is more important than the scrying pool split, as that is your only source of +action. Also think it is important to have count so you can continue to gain a copper to trash with a forager for +buy after you have trashed down. But not really as essential to use as a trasher.

Forager/silver might actually work well as an opening. Then pick up a second forager and a sauna on T3/T4.

[Mic Qsenoch]

The Sauna village thing is nice but not really essential as you basically just use it to play Counts. I don't think you necessarily lose if you can only potentially play 2 Counts a turn where your opponent is potentially playing 3, assuming you are ahead in other ways. But I wouldn't want to completely lose the Sauna split unless I was way ahead in trashing/pools.

[Robz888]

Every time I discount the importance of Sauna/Avanto even just a little bit, I get crushed. So I would open Sauna/Silver here.

[Kirian]

I open a bottle of aspirin for the headache of figuring this one out.

[LastFootnote]

Every time I discount the importance of Sauna/Avanto even just a little bit, I get crushed. So I would open Sauna/Silver here.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I really thought I could beat Sauna/Avanto the other day, with different trashing and villages. And I was cursing them while they were busy buying all 5 Saunas. I still got crushed, though.

[Robz888]

Every time I discount the importance of Sauna/Avanto even just a little bit, I get crushed. So I would open Sauna/Silver here.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I really thought I could beat Sauna/Avanto the other day, with different trashing and villages. And I was cursing them while they were busy buying all 5 Saunas. I still got crushed, though.

Sauna/Avanto is starting to feel like Urchin to me, which is the last time there was this card that was super powerful but I kept thinking "well, I can do something different here" and every single time it turned out that no, I couldn't do something different, I just had to go Urchin/Urchin all day.

[dedicateddan]

Every time I discount the importance of Sauna/Avanto even just a little bit, I get crushed. So I would open Sauna/Silver here.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I really thought I could beat Sauna/Avanto the other day, with different trashing and villages. And I was cursing them while they were busy buying all 5 Saunas. I still got crushed, though.

You don't beat Sauna/Avanto by outjunking them, you beat Sauna/Avanto by playing a better more efficient engine (i.e. Scrying Pool)

[LastFootnote]

Every time I discount the importance of Sauna/Avanto even just a little bit, I get crushed. So I would open Sauna/Silver here.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I really thought I could beat Sauna/Avanto the other day, with different trashing and villages. And I was cursing them while they were busy buying all 5 Saunas. I still got crushed, though.

You don't beat Sauna/Avanto by outjunking them, you beat Sauna/Avanto by playing a better engine (i.e. Scrying Pool)

So you're implicitly assuming I wasn't building an engine. And you're also implying that I shouldn't have bought a junking attack at all?

[Awaclus]

Trying to curse a Sauna player is an exercise in futility, since their trashing is faster, less resource intensive and better for tempo than your cursing, unless you have like a Mountebank opening or something like that. Otherwise, their engine might come together almost as fast as it would without the cursing, really, and you probably spent one turn and a terminal slot on a card that doesn't really help your engine all that much. If it (what the card does in addition to junking, and what it costs) conveniently fits into your strategy and you manage to do it early, you can buy junkers against Sauna, but I wouldn't buy Sea Hag, for instance.

There is also no "while they are busy buying all 5 Saunas" because every Sauna they buy is a potential splitter cantrip trasher, so you need to be spending those five turns more efficiently than that instead of taking your sweet time.

[dedicateddan]

Every time I discount the importance of Sauna/Avanto even just a little bit, I get crushed. So I would open Sauna/Silver here.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I really thought I could beat Sauna/Avanto the other day, with different trashing and villages. And I was cursing them while they were busy buying all 5 Saunas. I still got crushed, though.

You don't beat Sauna/Avanto by outjunking them, you beat Sauna/Avanto by playing a better engine (i.e. Scrying Pool)

So you're implicitly assuming I wasn't building an engine. And you're also implying that I shouldn't have bought a junking attack at all?

Well, my primary point is that if another strong engine is available, it can often outpace the slowish Sauna-Silver opening. I don't really know how I would play the junking attack board - although on this Scrying Pool board, it's possible to ignore a Sauna rush, so, for example, a Forager/Potion opening can get a number of Pools, an Upgrade, and a Count by the time Avanto's become available.

Of course, if Sauna is the only trashing, it's necessary to pick some up. And if Avanto is the best draw, you'll want to pick some up.

[drsteelhammer]

Every time I discount the importance of Sauna/Avanto even just a little bit, I get crushed. So I would open Sauna/Silver here.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I really thought I could beat Sauna/Avanto the other day, with different trashing and villages. And I was cursing them while they were busy buying all 5 Saunas. I still got crushed, though.

You don't beat Sauna/Avanto by outjunking them, you beat Sauna/Avanto by playing a better engine (i.e. Scrying Pool)

So you're implicitly assuming I wasn't building an engine. And you're also implying that I shouldn't have bought a junking attack at all?

I don't know why you would assume the former. He was implying that you're engine better be very strong if you ingore Sauna, not that you didn't build one. Also he probably was implying the latter, since that is good advice vs Sauna decks.

[ehunt]

Thanks for the feedback. I hadn't even considered Sauna/Forager. I wound up going for Sauna/Silver and my opponent split 5/2 and had some bad luck drawing his Count, so we didn't really get a test.

One argument against Potion/Forager is the relatively low payload for Scrying Pool. There's no extra actions, the best payload is Count (which is not slim pickings), and the only cantrip around is Sauna (besides Upgrade, which will force a trash).

[Seprix]

Trying to curse a Sauna player is an exercise in futility, since their trashing is faster, less resource intensive and better for tempo than your cursing, unless you have like a Mountebank opening

Actually, Mountebank and Cultist generally murder Saunavanto. Every time I go for the power junker, I seem to beat Sauna player.

[Chidressice]

I think Potion / Silver gives you the most flexibility here; you can pivot to Sauna for trash and grab Pools right away, or if you hit $5 instead of $4 you can go Count or Upgrade.

Forager is okay here and might actually be good enough that you open it anyway, because you eventually need the +Buy and end up doing some weird thing with Count's copper gain to sustain it. So maybe Potion Forager is actually correct.

This is what I'd open with. It gives you the most options imo.