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Author Topic: Heirloom Speculation  (Read 1845 times)

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Cave-o-sapien

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Heirloom Speculation
« on: August 10, 2017, 07:04:26 pm »
+3

I've seen a few ideas thrown around for what these could be in various threads, but I thought it might be nice to have one spot for them.

What we know: they replace your starting Coppers. That's it.

Do we think they will all be treasures? Or will they follow the pattern of Shelters and be a mixture of card types? How many uniquely named Heirlooms will there be?

Assuming they are treasures, could we have some worth $0 and some worth $2?

What will their costs be?

Could they be Victory/Treasure cards with a set collection bonus? I.e. if you keep the set of 7 until the end of the game, it's worth X points. How big would X need to be to forego trashing? Sort of like Fountain except you can't re-acquire them.
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J Reggie

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Re: Heirloom Speculation
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2017, 07:46:43 pm »
+13

They're all tomatoes.

trivialknot

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Re: Heirloom Speculation
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2017, 10:19:08 pm »
+2

We don't know whether Heirlooms replace all of the starting Coppers, or just some of them.  We don't know if they'll all be identical or all unique, or something in-between.  I think 7 uniques would be a bit much, making it less accessible, and longer to set up IRL.

My speculation is that they're coppers with on-trash bonuses/penalties.  That way, like shelters they don't mess with the opening, but can have a minor effect later on.  Also, if Nocturne truly is a sequel to Dark Ages, trashing is kind of a theme there.  If they're worth VP, that's kind of like a trashing penalty.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Heirloom Speculation
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2017, 11:03:06 pm »
0

My guess is you don't replace them all. If there are 7, I would guess suggested play is to randomize them separately. Probably they don't all relate to trashing, because sometimes you don't have that.

Beyond Awesome

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Re: Heirloom Speculation
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2017, 11:25:10 pm »
0

I think they will replace all starting coppers. Could be wrong though.
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crj

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Re: Heirloom Speculation
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2017, 11:27:01 pm »
+3

A specific idea that occurred to me the other day:

Gizmo (Action Heirloom, Cost $0)
+1 Action
You may discard a card that is not a Treasure. If you do, +$2.

Considered in isolation, if you replaced just one Copper with a Gizmo, it would do interesting things to the distribution of possible amounts to spend on turns 1 and 2.

I've no doubt Donald will come up with something much more interesting, but that at least illustrates the kind of space I'm expecting them to occupy.
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Re: Heirloom Speculation
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2017, 01:44:34 am »
+1

I predict one heirloom will be an attack. However, likely very weak.  Maybe one will be worth a -vp but give you $2 or something.
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MatthewCA

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Re: Heirloom Speculation
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2017, 12:28:51 pm »
+2

I'm predicting they won't all be treasures. My current guess is 2 action cards of some kind, 1 night card, 4 treasures. At least 4 differently named cards.
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octelium

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Re: Heirloom Speculation
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2017, 01:30:34 am »
+1

How about:

Heirloom:
$0
Treasure/Action
$1
+1 card
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crj

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Re: Heirloom Speculation
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2017, 09:40:50 am »
0

Surely just "Treasure"? Why would you ever play that as an Action?
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Chris is me

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Re: Heirloom Speculation
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2017, 10:04:40 am »
0

Surely just "Treasure"? Why would you ever play that as an Action?

What if you draw another Action? Assume you have +Action already. It's similar to why Crown / +Card token might be played in the Action phase with only Treasures in hand.

I don't think it will be this card for many reasons though.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 10:05:53 am by Chris is me »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Heirloom Speculation
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2017, 10:24:37 am »
+1

A specific idea that occurred to me the other day:

Gizmo (Action Heirloom, Cost $0)
+1 Action
You may discard a card that is not a Treasure. If you do, +$2.

Considered in isolation, if you replaced just one Copper with a Gizmo, it would do interesting things to the distribution of possible amounts to spend on turns 1 and 2.

I've no doubt Donald will come up with something much more interesting, but that at least illustrates the kind of space I'm expecting them to occupy.

This seems unfairly swingy. Without other things that mess with the opening, you either get /, /, /, or /. Super unfair to the player who opens /.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 10:25:56 am by GendoIkari »
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crj

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Re: Heirloom Speculation
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2017, 11:36:02 am »
0

Sure, it would suck in isolation. And I mainly intended it as an example of something only a bit better than Copper, the kind of thing an Heirloom might be.

If really going with that as one Heirloom, the others would have to balance it.
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Re: Heirloom Speculation
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2017, 02:19:56 am »
+10

10 Heirlooms, randomize 7 for each game to replace starting coppers:
Chancellor
Woodcutter
Feast
Spy
Adventurer
Secret Chamber
Great Hall
Scout
Saboteur
Tribute
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Re: Heirloom Speculation
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2017, 04:27:29 am »
0

I think it's unlikely they'll replace all 7 coppers. Having 7 unique cards instead of coppers seems kind of crazy (and it would make Moneylender and Miser basically useless, if that matters.) It also might be annoying to set up. You'd have to make sure each player has all of them.

I'm thinking there might be a lot of different Heirlooms, but only one or two are randomly selected to replace a copper. I also think it's unlikely they'll be actions, because that would make them basically ruins in a lot of games. They'll probably be a bit better, but not much; we're talking cards that cost $1, tops. The main point is that if they're actions, they can be drawn dead or collide badly with each other or other cards. Your deck could become noticeably worse, something that I don't think Donald would want.
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crj

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Re: Heirloom Speculation
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2017, 08:17:00 pm »
0

I think it's unlikely they'll replace all 7 coppers. [...] It also might be annoying to set up. You'd have to make sure each player has all of them.
I'm not saying I believe they'll replace all 7 Coppers. But if they did, a fairly obvious hack would be to print the expansion symbol in each of the Adventures player colours. Then you just give the heirlooms with a blue symbol to the blue player, etc.
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Dingan

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Re: Heirloom Speculation
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2017, 08:46:25 pm »
0

Is Heirloom a card type or card name?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Heirloom Speculation
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2017, 09:52:02 pm »
+1

Is Heirloom a card type or card name?

Unconfirmed.
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infangthief

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Re: Heirloom Speculation
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2017, 04:22:54 am »
+2

How about...

Heirloom, Treasure-Victory, Cost 0, Not in the supply
1 Coin
21VP

You want to think twice before trashing your family heirlooms...

Some immediate flaws:
- Swindler becomes even swingier (maybe you could work around it with 'when you trash this you may put it in your hand').
- My chapel hit 3 estates, yours hit... oh, 4 heirlooms, how interesting. But maybe that doesn't matter because chapel becomes a much weaker opening all round if there are 7 heirlooms and you don't want to trash them.
- Moneylender, Cutpurse etc
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Re: Heirloom Speculation
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2017, 07:18:45 am »
+3

How about...

Heirloom, Treasure-Victory, Cost 0, Not in the supply
1 Coin
21VP

You want to think twice before trashing your family heirlooms...

Some immediate flaws:
- Swindler becomes even swingier (maybe you could work around it with 'when you trash this you may put it in your hand').
- My chapel hit 3 estates, yours hit... oh, 4 heirlooms, how interesting. But maybe that doesn't matter because chapel becomes a much weaker opening all round if there are 7 heirlooms and you don't want to trash them.
- Moneylender, Cutpurse etc

4 provinces to make up for trashing a copper... I'm not saying you've guessed wrong, but...
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teamlyle

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Re: Heirloom Speculation
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2017, 10:07:17 am »
+1

I doubt Heirlooms will replace all the starting Coppers. On the wiki, it says that shelters "make Baron a sad panda," but imagine how many sad pandas there would be if there were no starting Coppers- counting house, apothecary, moneylender, etc.
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Re: Heirloom Speculation
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2017, 04:09:31 pm »
0

I doubt Heirlooms will replace all the starting Coppers. On the wiki, it says that shelters "make Baron a sad panda," but imagine how many sad pandas there would be if there were no starting Coppers- counting house, apothecary, moneylender, etc.
Another possibility is that Heirlooms themselves could generate Coppers to keep the pandas happy.

4 provinces to make up for trashing a copper... I'm not saying you've guessed wrong, but...
Yeh, maybe 21VP is a bit much... got carried away with the triangular numbers.
But I'd want to err on the generous side so that you want to keep them in most games where they appear. Any game where you end up trashing the Heirlooms, they may just as well have been Coppers.
So here's the question: how many VP would (non-supply) Coppers have to be worth in order that you'd want to keep them on about 80% of boards?
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Re: Heirloom Speculation
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2017, 06:35:34 pm »
+1

Any game where you end up trashing the Heirlooms, they may just as well have been Coppers.
You almost always want to trash shelters, except maybe Necropolis. Does that mean they might just as well have been Estates? No, I'm almost positive that Heirlooms will be pieces of junk you'll want to get rid of. They don't have to change the game that drastically to still be interesting.
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Re: Heirloom Speculation
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2017, 08:22:30 pm »
0

Not sure if it makes any sense, but what if some gave more than 1 coin, but also gained curse(s) on play? Like the heirlooms are worth a lot, but you get cursed for using them.
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Re: Heirloom Speculation
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2017, 08:45:52 am »
+1

Not sure if it makes any sense, but what if some gave more than 1 coin, but also gained curse(s) on play? Like the heirlooms are worth a lot, but you get cursed for using them.

Curses are bad. Like really really bad. A self-cursing treasure would almost have to trash another card AND give you a ton of money.
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crj

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Re: Heirloom Speculation
« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2017, 12:46:29 pm »
0

So... what would be a fair price for Counterfeit if "gain a Curse. If you do," was inserted after "When you play this,"?

$0? Give or take?

I think there's scope for heirlooms, whatever they are, however many there are, whether they're all the same or of various kinds, to be cards which pair significant benefits with significant penalties. The further down that route they go, the more they'll shake the game up.
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ackmondual

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Re: Heirloom Speculation
« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2017, 04:06:23 am »
+2

I'm predicting they won't all be treasures. My current guess is 2 action cards of some kind, 1 night card, 4 treasures. At least 4 differently named cards.
Taking a page off Shelters, of which only 1 of them ended up being Victory card to replace the Estates that were (and even then, barely, as the Overgrown Estate is worth 0pts), it's quite conceivable we'll see that here as well with the Coppers.
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allanfieldhouse

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Re: Heirloom Speculation
« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2017, 10:51:04 am »
+1

So... what would be a fair price for Counterfeit if "gain a Curse. If you do," was inserted after "When you play this,"?

$0? Give or take?

Replacing your starting Coppers with Curses (and + $3 total that turn) is still really bad. Maybe it would be worth playing it to buy a power $5, but I'm not sure you would do it otherwise. That being said...as an optional ability on a card you want to trash anyway...that might actually work out.
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Heirloom Speculation
« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2017, 05:19:40 pm »
0

How many people in this forum (aside from donaldx) already know exactly what the Heirlooms are?
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teamlyle

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Re: Heirloom Speculation
« Reply #29 on: September 11, 2017, 05:33:21 pm »
0

I think Stef and Phillip know. On the livestream for the League finals, Phillip said something about meeting with Stef to discuss Nocturne implementation, which I assume means that Donald has revealed the cards (or card-shaped things) to the Dominion Online people.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Heirloom Speculation
« Reply #30 on: September 11, 2017, 05:37:18 pm »
+1

How many people in this forum (aside from donaldx) already know exactly what the Heirlooms are?

I think Stef and Phillip know. On the livestream for the League finals, Phillip said something about meeting with Stef to discuss Nocturne implementation, which I assume means that Donald has revealed the cards (or card-shaped things) to the Dominion Online people.

Yes, they know. I have to imagine they are currently implementing Nocturne or have already done so, but I do not know with certainty.

I know what Heirlooms are, of course. All the playtesters and most lapsed/former playtesters know, though I won't list them here since some seem not to want to be outed. I don't know why, but there it is.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 05:40:16 pm by LastFootnote »
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Heirloom Speculation
« Reply #31 on: September 11, 2017, 05:42:46 pm »
0

I think Stef and Phillip know. On the livestream for the League finals, Phillip said something about meeting with Stef to discuss Nocturne implementation, which I assume means that Donald has revealed the cards (or card-shaped things) to the Dominion Online people.

Yes, they know. I have to imagine they are currently implementing Nocturne or have already done so, but I do not know with certainty.

I know what Heirlooms are, of course. All the other playtesters and most lapsed/former playtesters know, though I won't list them here since some seem not to want to be outed. I don't know why, but there it is.

Thanks for that.

Obviously, it takes some fun out of speculation threads when people hide what information they know in order to A) "guess" correctly or B) mess with people.
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Re: Heirloom Speculation
« Reply #32 on: September 11, 2017, 05:46:18 pm »
+1

I think Stef and Phillip know. On the livestream for the League finals, Phillip said something about meeting with Stef to discuss Nocturne implementation, which I assume means that Donald has revealed the cards (or card-shaped things) to the Dominion Online people.
but I do not know with certainty.
I do!

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LastFootnote

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Re: Heirloom Speculation
« Reply #33 on: September 11, 2017, 05:54:17 pm »
0

Obviously, it takes some fun out of speculation threads when people hide what information they know in order to A) "guess" correctly or B) mess with people.

I don't think that really happens, though. I have not seen "secret" testers pretending to guess in the past, they mostly just keep quiet. I'm not sure what you qualify as messing with people, but I don't think that happens either.
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Heirloom Speculation
« Reply #34 on: September 11, 2017, 06:15:10 pm »
0

Obviously, it takes some fun out of speculation threads when people hide what information they know in order to A) "guess" correctly or B) mess with people.

I don't think that really happens, though. I have not seen "secret" testers pretending to guess in the past, they mostly just keep quiet. I'm not sure what you qualify as messing with people, but I don't think that happens either.

I'm not suggesting that HAS happened here, but it happens in other domains all the time. Really I just wanted anyone participating in this thread to be aware that some people know the answers already.
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Re: Heirloom Speculation
« Reply #35 on: September 11, 2017, 10:59:43 pm »
0

All the playtesters and most lapsed/former playtesters know
Might one infer from the "lapsed/former" bit that Heirlooms are an idea that has been sitting around for a while, waiting for its day to come?

Or do we have to wait until the secret history?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Heirloom Speculation
« Reply #36 on: September 12, 2017, 12:10:04 am »
0

Might one infer from the "lapsed/former" bit that Heirlooms are an idea that has been sitting around for a while, waiting for its day to come?

Or do we have to wait until the secret history?

You can infer whatever you like! It's a free country internet.

But yes, I'd wait for the secret history if I were you.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 12:26:38 am by LastFootnote »
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ackmondual

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Re: Heirloom Speculation
« Reply #37 on: September 12, 2017, 03:54:32 am »
+1

How many people in this forum (aside from donaldx) already know exactly what the Heirlooms are?
13 thus far....
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?action=post;quote=711950;topic=17474.0;last_msg=719228
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Morghas

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Re: Heirloom Speculation
« Reply #38 on: September 12, 2017, 04:15:22 am »
0

Some ideas that haven't been mentioned:

A heirloom could allow each play to chose a card available from the supply up to $x to replace a copper in their starting hand. No extra printing cost and a nice interesting option if there were multiple good options out there.

Also I don't see why heirlooms would have to be restricted to $0 - $2 cost cards. If both players get the same thing or same choices available to them then maybe there could be a $6 card in there? Why not? It would make for some more interesting remodel options at the start game.

Bring on Nocture! I'm pumped.
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