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Author Topic: Dominion: Nocturne^^  (Read 1264 times)

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market squire

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Dominion: Nocturne^^
« on: August 08, 2017, 10:53:46 am »
+2

Hello there, I have so much other stuff to do, but it is WAY TOO TEMPTING of a design excercise to make another guessing thread how I would do the new Dominion expansion based on the preview text. Sure it is just for fun, but I try to design as serious as possible.

It was fun to do on Adventures. But to be not as overwhelming as last time, I will make this a "work in progress", so there is still some space for ideas. Feel free to comment and make your own/ inspired guesses. My ideas for Heirlooms/ Boons/ Hexes are maybe a bit too niche and political? Although I like how straightforward they are. I posted something similar in the Adventures thread, see the discussion here. There it was pretty far away from what we've gotten. On the other hand, I guessed everything correct about one Event back then. So here we go, time to look into the crystal ball. Who knows... maybe we can get a lucky hit again.  ;D

Night Cards

You can play any number of Night cards during the Night phase (after the Buy phase but before Cleanup). However, the instructions will ask you to pay an amount of to make their effect happen. (Inspired by Asper's idea of paying for playing Night cards.) Similarly to Crown, Action - Night cards cannot be used for both effects.

CONSPIRATION (Night - Duration)
Pay to set aside one Action card from play. Play it again at the start of your next turn.


WINE VILLAGE (Action - Night)
If it is your Action Phase, +1 Card +2 Actions.
If it is your Night Phase, pay to trash up to 2 Cards from your hand.


BAT (Action - Night)
If it is your Action Phase, +1 Card +1 Action, gain a Bat.
If it is your Night Phase, pay to exchange this for a Vampire.


VAMPIRE (Night - Attack)
Pay to make every other player gain 2 Curses. Exchange this for a Bat.
(This is not in the Supply.)


SHADY DEALER (Night)
Pay to gain a card.


NIGHT WORKER (Night)
Pay to take an extra turn after this one, but without a night phase.



Heirlooms

In games using Heirlooms, the starting decks are modified. Every player chooses a color. Then they give out one Heirloom in their color to every other player. Every Heirloom replaces one of the starting Coppers. E.g., in a 3 player game, you would start with 3 Estates or Shelters, 5 Coppers, and 2 Heirlooms from the other players. So there are 6*5=30 total Heirlooms needed (maybe 6 extra cards to remind people of their color, but in games with less than 6 players you'd have extra color cards anyway). Heirloom will look like this for every color:

HEIRLOOM (Treasure)
Worth .
Player Red may discard a card to draw a card.



Boons and Hexes

Boons and Hexes work similarly as Heirlooms, only they are distributed during the game. If there is a Fate or Doom card in the supply, every player chooses a color at the start of the game. They set aside the 5 Boons in their color when there is a Fate card and their 5 Hexes when there is a Doom card. Every player has their own pile of cards to distribute. You must gain Boons or Hexes from the active player's pile.

BOON (Treasure)
Worth .
Trash this.
__________________________
When you trash this, return it to the Red player's Boon pile and they draw a card.
(This is not in the supply.)


HEX (Night)
Pay to trash this.
__________________________
When you trash this, return it to the Red player's Hex pile and they draw a card.
(This is not in the supply.)



Possible Fate/ Doom cards:

RITUALIST (Action - Attack - Doom)
+
Each other player gains a Hex.
__________________________
While this is in play, when you play a Night card, +.


MONASTERY (Action - Fate)
+2 Cards
+1 Buy
Each other player gains a Boon.


WIZARD (Action - Attack - Doom)
+2 Cards
Each other player gains a Hex. If they don't, they gain a Curse.



Still so much space for cards to come...
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 01:46:14 pm by market squire »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion: Nocturne^^
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2017, 12:51:34 pm »
+2

The weird/interesting thing about this is that there's nothing in the rules of mechanics of Night cards that require you to pay for the effect. It just so happens that all Night cards you give as examples do require that.
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market squire

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Re: Dominion: Nocturne^^
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2017, 01:40:06 pm »
+1

The weird/interesting thing about this is that there's nothing in the rules of mechanics of Night cards that require you to pay for the effect. It just so happens that all Night cards you give as examples do require that.
Yes, I guess the "pay to" mechanic has to be explained in the rules, just like for the overpay mechanic. My first version had a "playing cost", just like Asper suggested, but I preferred integrating the cost into the text. But sure, technically they could be for free as well. Don't know if that would make it interesting enough though, it might be hard to justify it not being an Action.
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trivialknot

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Re: Dominion: Nocturne^^
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2017, 02:22:05 pm »
+1

I do like the mechanic of paying money to play Night cards.  But paying even $1 already seems like a huge drawback in the early game, and then irrelevant in engines.  That seems difficult to balance.  I expect at least one Night card will work that way though.

Vampire/Bat seems particularly problematic, because it's an attack that not only doesn't help, it actively hurts you.  So if we all go for Vampire/Bats we'll spend the first few shuffles handing out all the curses, and then we spend a long time crawling up from junky decks.  And god forbid anyone plays with more than 2 players.

Shady Dealer seems degenerate in colony games.  Otherwise, it's mostly an alternate gold that can only be used for Provinces?

Night Worker is the kind of card that generally sucks, but is way overpowered in engines.  Imagine I manage to play 3 Night Workers--the game is basically over at that point.


Some of my fan speculation:
Heirloom - Treasure - $1
+$1
When you trash this, gain a Copper to your hand.

Hexes and Boons have special backs, like Stash.  When you shuffle your deck, Boons always go on top, and Hexes always go on bottom.
Hex - Hex - $0

Boon - Action - $2
+1 Action, +1 Card, Return this to the supply.
When you draw this, +1 card.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Nocturne^^
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2017, 03:25:54 pm »
+1

The weird/interesting thing about this is that there's nothing in the rules of mechanics of Night cards that require you to pay for the effect. It just so happens that all Night cards you give as examples do require that.
Yes, I guess the "pay to" mechanic has to be explained in the rules, just like for the overpay mechanic. My first version had a "playing cost", just like Asper suggested, but I preferred integrating the cost into the text. But sure, technically they could be for free as well. Don't know if that would make it interesting enough though, it might be hard to justify it not being an Action.

Well, the "play cost" thing wasn't really a suggestion, more like a guess. What you do here is just another way of implementing the same basic concept. Just that yours leaves more flexibility and enables cards that cost nothing, but are otherwise Night-specific.

market squire

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Re: Dominion: Nocturne^^
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2017, 02:17:46 pm »
0

So maybe bat could be a night card that costs nothing to play, altough you give up the opportunity to play it as a cantrip then.

BAT (Action - Night)
If it is your Action Phase, +1 Card +1 Action, gain a Bat.
If it is your Night Phase, gain a Silver and exchange this for a Vampire.


About Shady Dealer I'm not sure. I liked the idea of gaining any card, also and cards. Maybe you are right that it is too strong with too pricy cards available.
Maybe this then:

SHADY DEALER (Night)
Pay to to gain a card costing up to .


Night Worker might have a once per turn clause:

NIGHT WORKER (Night)
If this is the first Night Worker you played this turn, pay to take an extra turn after this one, but without a night phase.



Also I figured out that my Heirloom is really really wonky because it can trigger even the first shuffle earlier. How about "downdecking" instead:

HEIRLOOM (Treasure)
Worth .
Player Red may put a card from their hand under their deck to draw a card.

« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 02:19:08 pm by market squire »
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Nocturne^^
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2017, 02:31:41 pm »
+1

So maybe bat could be a night card that costs nothing to play, altough you give up the opportunity to play it as a cantrip then.

BAT (Action - Night)
If it is your Action Phase, +1 Card +1 Action, gain a Bat.
If it is your Night Phase, gain a Silver and exchange this for a Vampire.

This has a problem I tried to identify in my "night cards speculation" thread, namely that it comes down to a "choose one" card:
"Choose one: +1 Card, +1 Action, gain a Bat; Gain a Silver and exchange this for a Vampire."
I know in your example you gain the Bat during your Action phase and the Vampire later, but that will hardly matter most of the time.

The "paying coins" mechanic also has a downside, in that it could work with debt tokens instead. However, tokens are a relatively fiddly way to implement this concept in comparison.

faust

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Re: Dominion: Nocturne^^
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2017, 03:35:17 am »
+2

Another problem about the pay mechanic is you could theoretically implement it with negative-value treasure cards too. I feel like night cards specifically need a reason to be played after the buy phase.
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market squire

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Re: Dominion: Nocturne^^
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2017, 09:52:24 am »
0

Another obvious Night card would be an in-play-trasher. Sorry for the uncreative name.  :D

NIGHT REMODEL (Night)
Trash a card that you have in play. Gain a card costing up to more than it.



And an alternative idea for the Heirloom effect:

HEIRLOOM (Treasure)
Worth .
Player Red may gain a Copper, putting it into their hand.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 09:59:13 am by market squire »
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Loempiaverkoper

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Re: Dominion: Nocturne^^
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2017, 10:20:10 am »
+1

These night cards seem like your own personal event cards, that are actually cards this time.
Seeing you have to buy and draw them and then spend money too, they seem weak in your suggested form.
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trivialknot

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Re: Dominion: Nocturne^^
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2017, 10:24:40 am »
+1

Night Remodel is hurt a lot by the fact that it can't remodel Estates.  Usually Estates are the prime target for remodeling.  I could see this card costing $2.  That way you can turn coppers into Night Remodels, which can trash themselves for $4s.
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market squire

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Re: Dominion: Nocturne^^
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2017, 12:26:27 pm »
+1

Night Remodel is hurt a lot by the fact that it can't remodel Estates.  Usually Estates are the prime target for remodeling.  I could see this card costing $2.  That way you can turn coppers into Night Remodels, which can trash themselves for $4s.
Yes, but there are also heavy upsides to it.
- It doesn't cost an Action to play.
- You can still use the card that you trashed (especially strong with Gold -> Province).
This makes the rest of the turn significantly stronger. Maybe Remodel is actually not the best card to compare it with. The best comparison coming to my mind is Counterfeit and Procession.
Although... both let you play the trashed card an extra time... I guess there are already pretty strong trashers at $2, so it could happen at $2 as well...?
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trivialknot

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Re: Dominion: Nocturne^^
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2017, 01:13:10 pm »
+1

Night Remodel is hurt a lot by the fact that it can't remodel Estates.  Usually Estates are the prime target for remodeling.  I could see this card costing $2.  That way you can turn coppers into Night Remodels, which can trash themselves for $4s.
Yes, but there are also heavy upsides to it.
- It doesn't cost an Action to play.
- You can still use the card that you trashed (especially strong with Gold -> Province).
This makes the rest of the turn significantly stronger. Maybe Remodel is actually not the best card to compare it with. The best comparison coming to my mind is Counterfeit and Procession.
Although... both let you play the trashed card an extra time... I guess there are already pretty strong trashers at $2, so it could happen at $2 as well...?
I was initially thinking of pricing it at $4, but then it's strictly better than Feast.  It depends on how the Night mechanic is implemented.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Nocturne^^
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2017, 07:43:47 pm »
0

Night Remodel is hurt a lot by the fact that it can't remodel Estates.  Usually Estates are the prime target for remodeling.  I could see this card costing $2.  That way you can turn coppers into Night Remodels, which can trash themselves for $4s.
Yes, but there are also heavy upsides to it.
- It doesn't cost an Action to play.
- You can still use the card that you trashed (especially strong with Gold -> Province).
This makes the rest of the turn significantly stronger. Maybe Remodel is actually not the best card to compare it with. The best comparison coming to my mind is Counterfeit and Procession.
Although... both let you play the trashed card an extra time... I guess there are already pretty strong trashers at $2, so it could happen at $2 as well...?
I was initially thinking of pricing it at $4, but then it's strictly better than Feast.  It depends on how the Night mechanic is implemented.

How about $7 instead?

Asper

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Re: Dominion: Nocturne^^
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2017, 08:13:00 pm »
+1

Of course, you could just do Night Remodel as a Treasure card:

Some Name, Treasure, $5
$1
When you play this, trash a card you have in play and gain a card costing up to $2 more than it.

ConMan

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Re: Dominion: Nocturne^^
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2017, 08:41:24 pm »
+1

My personal baseless speculation:

Empires gave us an Event that trashes a Victory card from the supply.
Base set 2nd edition gave us an Action card that trashes an Action card from the supply.
Therefore, Nocturnes may have a card that trashes a Treasure card from the supply - possibly Vampire Hunter, which then also has a use for Treasure cards (perhaps Silver) in the trash.
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