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Asper

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Night cards speculation
« on: August 06, 2017, 08:28:52 am »
+9

So, as the thread title says, I want to speculate about Night cards.

My main point: Nights might be another phase besides Action and Buy phase.
Problem: To be worth introducing an additional phase, there must be a relevant difference between the old phases and the new one.
What I'm trying to look for is what options exist to make a new phase besides Action and Buy phase worthwile. By finding out about these options, we might be able to narrow down what Night cards could do. Let's go!

Option 1: Resource production:
Given that Night cards are played after both the Action and Buy phase, and assuming you can't just go back (as the flow of time would imply), Night cards can't produce coins - simply because there is no buy phase to use them at.* However, Night cards might set up stuff for next turn, attack opponents, gain or trash. Neither of these however is sufficiently different from standard actions, as Actions already offer these options. Personally, I can't think of a resource Action cards couldn't just also produce.

Option 2: Leftover use:
At the time you play Night cards, you already produced some good stuff, like coins. So, Night cards could use these, to transform them into something. However, if we just talked about a card that takes leftover coins or Action at the end of the turn to do something, I'm pretty sure a "When you discard this from play" would've worked. Unless the leftovers are what lets you PLAY the cards in the first place. Which leads us to...

Options 2B and 3: Play limitation:
Treasure and Action cards are not only different in what they do, but also in how they are played. Action cards are used by expending Actions 1:1, Treasures can be played in unlimited numbers.
So, maybe Night cards are special in what they cost to be played.

There are some obvious options here:
  • Night cards could be played using up Money
  • Edit: Night cards use up cards in play
  • Night cards could be played using up something entirely different.

I think leftover Actions won't work. A night card might translate leftover Actions into something else, but requiring them to be played would just make them Action cards. Also, I briefly considered using cards (in hand) to be played, but that just won't work most of the time. Cards in play are another resource that's best available after the buy phase, and some of you have mentioned it already. So about the reasonable choices:

Option 2B: Night cards cost coins to play.
There's some potential here: Do I buy that Gold, or do I rather buy a 5$ and play that Vampire? The fact that Nights happen after the buy phase and after you played Treasures means that the fan-favorite "-1$" instruction actually becomes possible now. Night cards would basically be Events that go round in your deck. To some degree, you could have approximated this with nonterminal Debt cards (check out my Scientist, yo!), but of course this is cleaner. On the other hand, it means you pay twice for these cards: Once when you add them to your deck, and then each time you use them.

Option 2C: Night cards use up cards in play
This is an option I had not considered in my initial post. Just like you could use up coins, you could use up cards in play. Perhaps not each play, but it's a complementary option to coins.

Option 3: Night cards cost something entirely different to play.
So, how about using something that was NOT produced earlier in the turn. What could that be, you ask?

One idea would be to just have them be a second Action phase, that starts at 1 "Night-Action". Basically, two Action phases that don't affect each other.

Another idea I had was to use a unit similar to Actions, but instead of having each card cost exactly one, have some cards cost more of it than others. For example, each Night could last 6 hours, and each card costs a set amount of hours to play. So do I play three Ghouls costing 2h, or just one Ghoul and a Vampire for 4h? I'm sure you get the idea. Probably such a unit would get relatively complex if you had cards that re-add hours, or cards that put new cards in your hand mid-night**. So the cards would basically have to be stop cards. After thinking for it a while, I'm not sure how fun this would be.

There are a lot more options here. What do you think could make Night cards special? Feel free to add your own ideas or pick apart my analysis/speculative rambling.

Cheers.

*Obviously this could be wrong - feel free to suggest how this could be solved.
**See what I did there?

trivialknot

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Re: Night cards speculation
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2017, 01:01:43 pm »
+1

One idea I had was to use a unit similar to Actions, but instead of having each card cost the same, have some cards cost more of it than others. For example, each Night could last 6 hours, and each card costs a set amount of hours to play. So do I play three Ghouls costing 2h, or just one Ghoul and a Vampire for 4h?
In the other thread, I had speculated that the Nights phase comes with a separate supply of actions.  For example, perhaps at the beginning of the phase, you lose all your actions, and then get +1 Action, but you can only use it to play Night cards.  But then, why even call it an Action, except to make the Villa interaction confusing?  Why not call it an "hour" as you suggested?

Still, I think having 6 "hours" is too complex.  I'm guessing that Night cards are designed to work when there's only one of them in the kingdom.  And if you can play 3 Ghouls per turn, they're basically non-terminal, and how many of these Ghouls did you really want anyway?  I mean, Ghouls are stop cards, right?
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Asper

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Re: Night cards speculation
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2017, 02:11:09 pm »
0

One idea I had was to use a unit similar to Actions, but instead of having each card cost the same, have some cards cost more of it than others. For example, each Night could last 6 hours, and each card costs a set amount of hours to play. So do I play three Ghouls costing 2h, or just one Ghoul and a Vampire for 4h?
In the other thread, I had speculated that the Nights phase comes with a separate supply of actions.  For example, perhaps at the beginning of the phase, you lose all your actions, and then get +1 Action, but you can only use it to play Night cards.  But then, why even call it an Action, except to make the Villa interaction confusing?  Why not call it an "hour" as you suggested?

Still, I think having 6 "hours" is too complex.  I'm guessing that Night cards are designed to work when there's only one of them in the kingdom.  And if you can play 3 Ghouls per turn, they're basically non-terminal, and how many of these Ghouls did you really want anyway?  I mean, Ghouls are stop cards, right?

That's a good point. The assumption that Night cards had a unit of their own is already different to Actions, as, no matter how many Actions you have, they are useless at night. So it's true that Night cards may just take up one of that resource. Also, you certainly got a point in the Ghouls being stop cards. Which makes me wonder - if there is any limitation to how many Night cards you can play, how will you have enough Night cards in hand at the end of your Buy phase to make it matter? Will they just draw cards and do all the stuff that Action cards can? But then, however would you balance out such a deck, assuming Night cards are normal kingdom cards and you might see just one of them? Can Night cards draw a lot more cards? Do they always come with Actions that support them, instead? Or maybe they have no play limitation at all? But then what would make them different from Treasure cards giving 0$?

Maybe Night cards have something different about them that's special?

One more option I can think of is the place Night cards come from. Instead of being played from your hand, they could be played from your discard pile, or your deck - or maybe they never even go into your deck in the first place, and are set aside instead? This could go with the option of expending coins to play them. Basically you create your own pool of Events.

Meh, that's not entirely convincing, either.

Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Night cards speculation
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2017, 03:19:05 pm »
+1

or maybe they never even go into your deck in the first place, and are set aside instead?

This is what I was thinking when reading the thread up until this point: you have set-aside Night cards each with a cost in hours. Night is X hours and you can spend those hours however you like to trigger cards in your Night area.
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Kirian

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Re: Night cards speculation
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2017, 03:34:57 pm »
+1

How about:

Night cards are purchased and set aside.  During the Night phase, they can be played and discarded.  Once they're in your deck, they're an unplayable card--though of course they're still trashable, and some supporting Actions might allow you to play them a second time.

Since it's self-junking, they need either low cost or high value.  So consider:

Night Watchman
$2 -- Night - Duration

At the start of your next turn, draw 4 cards.

----

I think the ideas of "cost in hours" are excessively complex and don't follow the generally parsimonious trend of Dominion cards, so I'm betting against that.
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Asper

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Re: Night cards speculation
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2017, 04:32:04 pm »
0

I think the ideas of "cost in hours" are excessively complex and don't follow the generally parsimonious trend of Dominion cards, so I'm betting against that.

Yeah, I'm far less convinced it's a working idea now than I originally was. I'd say for such a complex system to not be overwhelming, you'd have to exclude cards that add hours and also exclude cards that make new night cards available during the same turn - so you can choose a set of cards to use up your hours for before you play any. However, this implies that Night cards in your deck would absolutely have to be stop cards, and we saw this wouldn't necessarily work well, before. To solve the stop cards issue, Night cards then would probably have to be played from somewhere else than your hand. The problem is, I can't see Donald introducing both of these mechanics at once - he'd probably just go with the "play from outside" mechanic on its own for now. Also, night cards would probably have to come in stacks with more than 1 kind of card, to make it a meaningful decision which you spend your hours on. Otherwise, you'd often have kingdoms with only one type of night card, where the amount of hours just sets a strict upper limit for how many Night cards you can get before additional ones stop doing anything. All that seems a bit much at once.

About the cards that stay aside during the course of the game, this has been a fan idea for a while now, so maybe now's the time Donald does his version of them. I can't imagine the cards would be discarded to just be dead cards for the rest of the game, though. I mean, that's basically an Event that has you gain a junk card, like an Estate. Considering how Events enabled us to save card space (Great Hall to Salt the Earth, Colony to Dominate), I doubt Donald X would now go the opposite direction.
If Night cards went into your deck and were set aside again for nightly use after being played, they'd essentially be Reserves, so that doesn't seem like the thing either. Personally, I'd guess they either never enter your deck at all - or of course they are something entirely different.

trivialknot

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Re: Night cards speculation
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2017, 06:19:12 pm »
+1

To solve the stop cards issue, Night cards then would probably have to be played from somewhere else than your hand. The problem is, I can't see Donald introducing both of these mechanics at once - he'd probably just go with the "play from outside" mechanic on its own for now.
Yeah, I can't see introducing both of these mechanics at once.  If the whole idea is to play cards from outside your deck, why would it be particularly important to play them after the buy phase?  It seems like there's be a larger design space for cards that you play from outside your deck, but at the beginning of the turn, not the end.

I'm not sure that Night cards being stop cards is actually an issue.  Having Night cards be dead during the day is the most obvious way to distinguish Night Cards from Action cards.  For example, what if there was a powerful sifter, but during the Action phase it's just a dead card?  So it can set up next turn, but actively hurts this turn.
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Asper

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Re: Night cards speculation
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2017, 06:43:23 am »
0

Well, one thing they could do if they take place after the buy phase, is use coins. But combining that with the "out of deck" option's again two things at once.

BBL

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Re: Night cards speculation
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2017, 09:20:32 am »
+4

I am pretty sure that Donald X did not miss the chance to follow the flavor that vampires or werwolves have: At night they turn into someting different. The bat becomes a vampire, the blacksmith turns into werewolve, the statue changes into the spooky women. Nocturne's flavor text hints into this direction too.

So the interesting question is: How do cards turn into something different?
- It might be written on the card: Bat / Vampire: "[Day symbol] +1 card / +1 Action | [Night Symbol]: Opponent discards to 2. "-> This feels very heavy-handed and it does not really sell the flavor of turning one card into another one. I cannot imagine how the card art would look for it either.
- It might work similar to the Overlord mechanic: Bat:" +1 card / +1 Action | During Night, you may play this as a Vampire." Vampire in this case would be a supply pile that you cannot purchase.
- It could work similar to the Madman: Bat: "+1 Card, +1 action | During night, trash this card, and exchange it with a Vampire." -> It would be a small bonus during day time and a delayed purchase a night.
- I find the Blacksmith example in Nocturne's flavor text a bit odd. The blacksmith is an established card that already exists. If he can turn into a werewolve, maybe any card can be exchanged with a Night card or get the traits of a Night card? So it is maybe: Bat: "Move an action card from your hand to the night mat. You may play this card as a vampire "
- The same idea as a  variation of the urchin mechanic: Bat: "Trash two action cards costing 4 or more from your hand. Gain a Vampire." -> This would not really fit the "different between night and day" theme, but it is a nice mechanic, which requies some time to line up the cards.
- Maybe it could mess with the buys: Event: Bat:"Trash all cards your purchased during day. For every two cards you trashed, gain a vampire" --> This would explain the extra phase after the buy phase. It would also be the "-2 buy" mechanic, that have been brought up up from time to time.

Other ideas, how this card conversion could work?
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 09:23:31 am by BBL »
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Asper

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Re: Night cards speculation
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2017, 10:52:07 am »
0

I am pretty sure that Donald X did not miss the chance to follow the flavor that vampires or werwolves have: At night they turn into someting different. The bat becomes a vampire, the blacksmith turns into werewolve, the statue changes into the spooky women. Nocturne's flavor text hints into this direction too.
Good point. I agree it's all but implausible that Night cards can be used as normal Action cards. However, I would assume that this is a "one or another" thing (meaning you can't get both day and night effects), simply because I can't imagine Donald using the word "played" to get some effect from a card that's already in play.

However, if  you have to decide whether you want to play a Night card at day or at night, those have to fulfill some requirements - otherwise they'll just be intrigue-esque "Choose one" cards. Any of these will do:
  • Playing the card at night costs "Night Actions" that are different from normal actions
  • The time you play it at makes an important difference for some reason - for example because the cards use coins that you can't be sure are available in your Action phase

Assuming neither requirement is fulfilled, a card like
"[Day symbol] +1 card / +1 Action | [Night Symbol]: Opponent discards to 2. "[/i]
could just as well be written as "+1 Action. Choose one: +1 Card; Each other player discards down to 2 cards in hand.".

Similarly, I don't see why this
Bat: "+1 Card, +1 action | During night, trash this card, and exchange it with a Vampire." -> It would be a small bonus during day time and a delayed purchase a night.
isn't just "+1 Card, +1 action | When you discard this from play, trash this and gain a Vampire.". No harm intended.

I like the idea of cards turning into other cards. However, this has already been featured to some degree in Adventures, and we saw how it was done there. I can imagine that if Donald wanted Blacksmith to be able and turn into something else, he might just do an Event similar to Inheritance. Perhaps such an Event could in fact use reminder cards that show us the "transformed" card's new abilities, but I don't think the expansion's blurb would call this Night cards being "played". Simply because it would make "Night" an imaginary type that's not actually printed on the card you play.

- Maybe it could mess with the buys: Event: Bat:"Trash all cards your purchased during day. For every two cards you trashed, gain a vampire" --> This would explain the extra phase after the buy phase. It would also be the "-2 buy" mechanic, that have been brought up up from time to time.
I'm all in favour of cards that can only be gained by the matter of an Event, and I think it's a possibly interesting design space. However, I don't think a "you may play this once on buy" effect is worth a new phase. Mostly because we had this since Noble Brigand.

spiralstaircase

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Re: Night cards speculation
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2017, 11:41:34 am »
+1

because I can't imagine Donald using the word "played" to get some effect from a card that's already in play

I agree, but I can imagine him, or Jay, or whoever, using it in the back-of-box blurb.  We could have cards which give you a while-in-play event-like behaviour, like this:

Bat
Action $2
+1 Card
+1 Action
----
If this is in play at the end of your Buy phase, you may pay $3.  If you do, each other player discards down to 3 cards.

That would be close enough for the back of the box; the rulebook could include a sentence pointing out that it's not technically playing the card.  Plus it wouldn't introduce a new phase, so Donald wouldn't have to discover a new letter between B and C.
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Asper

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Re: Night cards speculation
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2017, 12:44:46 pm »
0

because I can't imagine Donald using the word "played" to get some effect from a card that's already in play

I agree, but I can imagine him, or Jay, or whoever, using it in the back-of-box blurb.  We could have cards which give you a while-in-play event-like behaviour, like this:

Bat
Action $2
+1 Card
+1 Action
----
If this is in play at the end of your Buy phase, you may pay $3.  If you do, each other player discards down to 3 cards.

That would be close enough for the back of the box; the rulebook could include a sentence pointing out that it's not technically playing the card.  Plus it wouldn't introduce a new phase, so Donald wouldn't have to discover a new letter between B and C.

My first issue is that I think calling this a card being "played" would be very, very misleading and I can not picture Jay doing that. Consider the fact that your example above would not only work fine with Hermit's on-discard trigger, but would actually benefit from it, as you can easily see which cards were already resolved. Would you think it's plausible for anyone to claim that Hermit, Treasury or Walled Village get played during cleanup? Also, why would you need a new type for this kind of card?

crj

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Re: Night cards speculation
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2017, 01:57:25 pm »
+2

An option I've not noticed considered here, which I've expressed elsewhere:

Maybe playing Night cards is mandatory. If you have it in your hand between Buy and Cleanup, it gets played.

This could be mediated by a new requirement to reveal your hand before Cleanup, or by Night cards having different backs.

That would give mechanical space for Night cards to have negative or ambivalent effects. Hexes, for example, could be harmful Night cards. It would also allow for Action cards which penalise you if you don't play them in your Action phase.
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humcalc216

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Re: Night cards speculation
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2017, 02:41:58 pm »
+2

I am pretty sure that Donald X did not miss the chance to follow the flavor that vampires or werwolves have: At night they turn into someting different. The bat becomes a vampire, the blacksmith turns into werewolve, the statue changes into the spooky women. Nocturne's flavor text hints into this direction too.
Then, why not have them change back after the night.  So, Bat could have a Hermit-like clause, "When you discard this from play, return it to the supply and gain a Vampire from the Vampire pile," and Vampire could say "When you discard this from play, return it to the Vampire pile and gain a Bat."  Making one-shot Night cards would also somewhat solve the stop-card issue.
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spiralstaircase

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Re: Night cards speculation
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2017, 08:41:34 am »
+1

My first issue is that I think calling this a card being "played" would be very, very misleading and I can not picture Jay doing that.

Our imaginary Jays differ slightly in how rigorously they word the back-of-box blurbs.  I hope we can still be friends :-)

Quote
Consider the fact that your example above would not only work fine with Hermit's on-discard trigger, but would actually benefit from it, as you can easily see which cards were already resolved.

Yes, that would be another way to achieve a similar effect, and would have that benefit.  I'd be worried about interactions with the lose-track rule if cards started having discretionary effects from the discard pile.

Quote
Would you think it's plausible for anyone to claim that Hermit, Treasury or Walled Village get played during cleanup?

Not in any sort of formal context, no.  I'd raise an eyebrow if someone were to use the word "play" loosely in an informal context, but I'd let it pass.

Quote
Also, why would you need a new type for this kind of card?

Why do we need "Duration" or "Reaction"?  It reminds us that there's something to be done at a weird time.
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Asper

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Re: Night cards speculation
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2017, 09:42:14 am »
+1

Yes, that would be another way to achieve a similar effect, and would have that benefit.  I'd be worried about interactions with the lose-track rule if cards started having discretionary effects from the discard pile.

Quote
Why do we need "Duration" or "Reaction"?  It reminds us that there's something to be done at a weird time.

Hermit is not lost track of. Both at the moment a card is discarded and while it is being trashed, it is still technically where it was coming from. This becomes apparent from the fact that Band of Misfits as Hermit can be successfully trashed for a Madman. So in my opinion Hermit's wording is a strict upgrade. This also answers the second question: Because Hermit needs no special type.

Edit: Also, of course we can be friends :-)

LastFootnote

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Re: Night cards speculation
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2017, 09:49:13 am »
+2

My first issue is that I think calling this a card being "played" would be very, very misleading and I can not picture Jay doing that.

Our imaginary Jays differ slightly in how rigorously they word the back-of-box blurbs.  I hope we can still be friends :-)

Donald wrote the mechanics blurb, not Jay.
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Asper

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Re: Night cards speculation
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2017, 09:49:43 am »
0

I am pretty sure that Donald X did not miss the chance to follow the flavor that vampires or werwolves have: At night they turn into someting different. The bat becomes a vampire, the blacksmith turns into werewolve, the statue changes into the spooky women. Nocturne's flavor text hints into this direction too.
Then, why not have them change back after the night.  So, Bat could have a Hermit-like clause, "When you discard this from play, return it to the supply and gain a Vampire from the Vampire pile," and Vampire could say "When you discard this from play, return it to the Vampire pile and gain a Bat."  Making one-shot Night cards would also somewhat solve the stop-card issue.

I'm not sure how this is related to night cards. I get the idea that a card changes between two abilities by being exchanged on every play, and that's a cool idea, too. But I don't see the connection to Nights if they indeed are a phase of the same turn. After all you won't discard a bat until the cleanup phase, which happens after Night (probably). Are you thinking about playing Bat in your action phase, changing it to Vampire and playing it again at night, then changeing it back? Because in that case, why would you need two physical cards for that?

humcalc216

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Re: Night cards speculation
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2017, 02:32:07 pm »
+1

I'm not sure how this is related to night cards. I get the idea that a card changes between two abilities by being exchanged on every play, and that's a cool idea, too. But I don't see the connection to Nights if they indeed are a phase of the same turn. After all you won't discard a bat until the cleanup phase, which happens after Night (probably). Are you thinking about playing Bat in your action phase, changing it to Vampire and playing it again at night, then changeing it back? Because in that case, why would you need two physical cards for that?

My plan was for you to play the Vampire in a later turn, during that turn's Night phase.
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Asper

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Re: Night cards speculation
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2017, 02:33:51 pm »
0

I'm not sure how this is related to night cards. I get the idea that a card changes between two abilities by being exchanged on every play, and that's a cool idea, too. But I don't see the connection to Nights if they indeed are a phase of the same turn. After all you won't discard a bat until the cleanup phase, which happens after Night (probably). Are you thinking about playing Bat in your action phase, changing it to Vampire and playing it again at night, then changeing it back? Because in that case, why would you need two physical cards for that?

My plan was for you to play the Vampire in a later turn, during that turn's Night phase.

Okay, so it wasn't really about what Night cards do or how they are played. That got me confused.

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Re: Night cards speculation
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2017, 08:07:22 pm »
+1

Maybe you play Night cards after someone else's buy phase, not your own? Or, maybe the Night cards trigger something involving all players that needs to happen (sort of) between turns - kind of like the bidding with Mountain Pass?
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Re: Night cards speculation
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2017, 09:17:06 pm »
+1

Sorry if this is the wrong thread to ask this question, but I've been out of the loop on the forums for awhile. What are these "Night Cards" supposed to be? Is it a new expansion?
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trivialknot

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Re: Night cards speculation
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2017, 10:03:40 pm »
+3

Sorry if this is the wrong thread to ask this question, but I've been out of the loop on the forums for awhile. What are these "Night Cards" supposed to be? Is it a new expansion?
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=17456.0
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Asper

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Re: Night cards speculation
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2017, 11:10:54 pm »
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Maybe you play Night cards after someone else's buy phase, not your own? Or, maybe the Night cards trigger something involving all players that needs to happen (sort of) between turns - kind of like the bidding with Mountain Pass?

Well, at least the latest one would mean that Night cards can't happen between Buy and cleanup phase, as was widely considered to be implied by the blurb.

Violet CLM

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Re: Night cards speculation
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2017, 02:46:08 am »
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At the end of the buy phase you've got a lot of cards in play, so maybe the resource in question is the cards you've played? Bat: "Trash a card you have in play costing $4 or more. If you do, gain a Vampire."

Alternatively, look at what's about to happen: discarding most everything from play, followed by drawing five cards. Night cards could let you mess with that somehow, though they'd need a compelling reason to be different from Scheme and also it might be hard to get them to work with Outpost.
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