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Author Topic: Confusion over setting Kingdoms  (Read 504 times)

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joejoe22802

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Confusion over setting Kingdoms
« on: July 21, 2017, 06:03:47 pm »
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Hey everyone,

Clearly, I'm super fresh here but I would love to start contributing to the simulators. First that I noticed immediately is that it seems that both Geronimoo and Dominate seem to just run the game with the strategies without a section for setting the deck?

Do they both just include the cards that are in the strategies and then go ahead with random other cards?

What considerations do you all take when considering the external validity of the results?

Also sorry if this is all wrong, I just wanted to post this so I could get to it ASAP. I'll go ahead and do more reading now as well.

Cheers
joejoe
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Confusion over setting Kingdoms
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2017, 07:34:25 pm »
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My understanding is that there is no actual kingdom. The only included cards are those specified in the buy rules.

I don't really consider the results of the sims very useful, and often find them very misleading. They can give an accurate result for a simple case with simple cards (i.e. big money + 1 Kingdom card), but those cases are unlikely to be relevant in a real game.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2017, 07:36:46 pm by Mic Qsenoch »
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Awaclus

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Re: Confusion over setting Kingdoms
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2017, 07:58:05 pm »
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I don't really consider the results of the sims very useful, and often find them very misleading. They can give an accurate result for a simple case with simple cards (i.e. big money + 1 Kingdom card), but those cases are unlikely to be relevant in a real game.

This is true. I think that the simulation results alone don't really tell you anything, but sometimes you might be able to use your own thinking alongside the sim results to get better insight into something specific. For example, you might simulate some decision for BM, and when you get the results, you can ask yourself why it gives you that result and whether or not those reasons are also relevant for engines. If the reason why you're getting that result is that the sim plays against another sim which also plays a big money strategy, then it's probably not applicable, but if it's because it boosts your economy in a more card-efficient way or whatever, then it might be.

schadd

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Re: Confusion over setting Kingdoms
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2017, 10:10:17 pm »
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i think the most compelling result i ever got from a sim was that ironworks/chapel/cheap engine pieces/vineyards beats draw bm exactly 100% of the time
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liopoil

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Re: Confusion over setting Kingdoms
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2017, 10:12:38 pm »
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Well, I think the reason that the simulations aren't very useful is at least partially because there is no actual kingdom. Joejoe probably realizes that a good simulator would need to take more things into account and so is surprised that they don't have a kingdom.
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DG

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Re: Confusion over setting Kingdoms
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2017, 12:30:42 pm »
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Logically, simulators only need to include cards that might get bought. There are sometimes cards outside a strategy that are relevant due to specific actions (swindler, procession) but in those circumstances the user can find ways to add them to the simulated kingdom. More often the cards that get bought are the only cards relevant to a strategy. There is no need to fill the kingdom with any other cards.

The validity of the results gets worse when the kingdom gets more complex, essentially.
- Card play heuristics generally support simple strategies and cannot cannot see a 'bigger picture', such as when choosing cards to put on the deck after a ghost ship attack.
- Some Dominion concepts, such as end game control, are difficult to realize in one script let alone in competing scripts.
- Scripts get overly long for complex strategies and are prone to human errors.
- If the script doesn't cover enough decisions then it will be inaccurate - it's the old computer phrase of "garbage in, garbage out".

If you stick to simple kingdoms the simulator can be fine and it produced many interesting results in the past. Experienced players are often unimpressed as they can work out simple kingdoms without a simulator. Also with so many cards now available for Dominion, a kingdom you simulate is far less likely to reappear in a new game. At the time the simulator was released you could simulate fishing village and wharf and expect to play lots of games with those two cards. If you want to look back at a game you lost and ask "how did this happen" then the simulator might be able to answer.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2017, 03:03:21 pm by DG »
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joejoe22802

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Re: Confusion over setting Kingdoms
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2017, 05:14:20 pm »
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Thanks for the responses everyone. I was just interested because I wanted to help with development and this seems like a great opportunity!
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