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[O]

The combo is obvious, but I'd like to know if possible how good it is to play specifically around this combo, and I don't really have any experience with the simulators. I suspect its virtually tied with BM/Smithy.

Assume 4/3 opening.

What I would like to know if possible:
1) Is one or two traders optimal
2) on 5$ w/o trader hands, should you buy cache or silver
3) When to shift to duchies (roughly)
4) How it actually fares against BM/Smithy.

Play rules are relatively straight-forward except for the above. Remember that buying a Cache with trader in hand is preferable to buying a gold.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Rabid]

This is not optimized but should be a good starting point.
Losses 34 to 62 vs Smithy

Code: [Select]

<player name="Trader / Cashe"
 author="Rabid"
 description="">
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="Optimized"/>
 <type name="BigMoney"/>
 <type name="SingleCard"/>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="getTotalMoney"/>
         <operator type="greaterOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="16.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Cache">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInHand" attribute="Trader"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Cache"/>
   <buy name="Trader">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Trader"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>


[blueblimp]

This Cache-only bot loses about 32-61 to Smithy, so the Trader does not seem to be helping much in the bot above, since this bot is not much optimized. It wins 58-34 against BMU, so Cache by itself is not bad for big money.

Code: [Select]

<player name="Cache+BM"
 author="blueblimp"
 description="Buy Caches with $5.">
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
 <type name="BigMoney"/>
 <type name="SingleCard"/>
 <type name="Optimized"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="Bot"/>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="getTotalMoney"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="18.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="5.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Cache"/>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="6.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>


[Voltgloss]

With only one action in the deck (Trader), does the bot just play it every time it turns up?  That would explain why it's not helping much in the sim - you're never activating the underlying combo (i.e., not playing Trader, and instead keeping it in hand to use its reaction ability on the Coppers gained when buying Cache).

[LastFootnote]

Uh, check a sample game in those simulations. I predict that the simulator is always playing the Trader, so it never has one in hand when gaining a Cache. Furthermore, I think it will trash Caches with Trader if the only other option is Copper, which is a really bad move.

I don't think the simulator's going to be of much use on this one.

EDIT: Not quite fast enough...

[DG]

This is something Geronimoo was aware of when the were discussing the "is card in hand" condition that he later added. That purchase condition would help farmland (in most cases) but trader would often be played as an action. His response at the time was ...

Regarding the card play issue: this would be hell to program so it works in all circumstances, but I do think it’s worth it to hard
code some things like not playing Trader when we’re going to buy a Cache.

[Rabid]

My rules above managed to do the following:

    *** Trader / Cashe(Plr 2)'s turn 8 ***
   Trader / Cashe(Plr 2)'s cards in Hand: [Province, Silver, Trader, Copper, Silver]
   Trader / Cashe(Plr 2) plays 1 Copper
   Trader / Cashe(Plr 2) plays 2 Silvers
   Trader / Cashe(Plr 2) has $5 to spend and 1 buy
   Trader / Cashe(Plr 2) buys a Cache
   Trader / Cashe(Plr 2) gains a Copper
   Trader / Cashe(Plr 2) reveals Trader
   Trader / Cashe(Plr 2) returns Copper to the supply
   Trader / Cashe(Plr 2) gains a Silver
   Trader / Cashe(Plr 2) gains a Copper
   Trader / Cashe(Plr 2) reveals Trader
   Trader / Cashe(Plr 2) returns Copper to the supply
   Trader / Cashe(Plr 2) gains a Silver
   Trader / Cashe(Plr 2) draws 5 cards
   Trader / Cashe(Plr 2)'s cards in Hand: [Silver, Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper]

[DG]

Unfortunately it will do the following too it seems (explaining the low win rate)

Trader / Cashe(Plr 1)'s cards in Hand: Copper, Trader, Gold, Gold,Silver
 Trader / Cashe(Plr 1) plays Trader   ... Trader / Cashe(Plr 1) trashes a Silver

[Asklepios]

This is unscientific, but I've been trying out some solo games with the following play rules:

By Trader/Silver on 4/3 opening.
Buy second Trader as soon as possible.

IF $8+ THEN buy province
IF Trader AND $5-7... THEN buy Cache, and swap coppers for silvers.
IF Trader AND $1-4... THEN trash the card that will result in most silvers in deck at turn end, except provinces and traders. (and on a $3 + estate, trash the estate, of course,)
IF no Trader AND $6-7 THEN buy gold
IF no Trader AND $3-5 THEN buy silver
IF no Trader AND $1-2 THEN pass

With those rules I generally seem to hit 4th province only at turn 17-18, but tend to get 8 provinces by turn 21-22, so the deck does seem to accelerate.

Obviously the above play rules would need some tweaking, given that they don't account for late game duchy buying, but I think otherwise thats probably the optimal way to run these two cards. What do you think?

[Geronimoo]

The simulator will not play the Trader if it's going to buy a Cache (see the wantsToBePlayed()-method):
https://github.com/Geronimoo/Geronimoo-s-Dominion-Simulator/blob/master/Geronimoo%27s%20Dominion%20Simulator/src/be/aga/dominionSimulator/cards/TraderCard.java

So that won't have an influence on the win rate. I might need to add something so it doesn't play Trader with the "Gold, 2 Silver, Copper, Trader" hand

[DG]

You might also want to have a look at the game in this thread too. The player (correctly) trashed copper to keep the deck size down knowing that mountebank attacks would then add enough silver anyway. http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1696.0

[Geronimoo]

You might also want to have a look at the game in this thread too. The player (correctly) trashed copper to keep the deck size down knowing that mountebank attacks would then add enough silver anyway. http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1696.0

Hmm, don't know if that's correct. Intuitively it's a good idea to keep deck size down, but foregoing 4 Silvers (trashing another Trader) seems a little nuts... It's probably going to be correct in some cases, but I doubt it will have a big influence on the win rate either way.

[DrHades]

Chapel as a bonus seems nice. I played some solitair games and Chapel+Trader+Cache gets 4 Provinces in 13-14 turns and 8 Provinces in 20-21...

I know that with Chapel on the table there will be probably something faster, but still...

[O]

This is unscientific, but I've been trying out some solo games with the following play rules:

By Trader/Silver on 4/3 opening.
Buy second Trader as soon as possible.

IF $8+ THEN buy province
IF Trader AND $5-7... THEN buy Cache, and swap coppers for silvers.
IF Trader AND $1-4... THEN trash the card that will result in most silvers in deck at turn end, except provinces and traders. (and on a $3 + estate, trash the estate, of course,)
IF no Trader AND $6-7 THEN buy gold
IF no Trader AND $3-5 THEN buy silver
IF no Trader AND $1-2 THEN pass

With those rules I generally seem to hit 4th province only at turn 17-18, but tend to get 8 provinces by turn 21-22, so the deck does seem to accelerate.

Obviously the above play rules would need some tweaking, given that they don't account for late game duchy buying, but I think otherwise thats probably the optimal way to run these two cards. What do you think?

When I was playing trader-cache manually, I was hitting ~15 average, with 17 at a maximum (never 18). I was playing with only one trader.

[Asklepios]

Ah, maybe thats it. I'll try again with one trader.

[Davio]

I must say, it's not a bad combo.

Code: [Select]

— Your turn 12 —
You play 2 Silvers, a Copper, and a Cache.
You buy a Province.

— Your turn 13 —
You play 2 Silvers, a Copper, and a Cache.
You buy a Province.

— Your turn 14 —
You play a Silver, 3 Coppers, and a Cache.
You buy a Province.

— Your turn 15 —
You play 4 Silvers and a Copper.
You buy a Province.

— Your turn 16 —
You play 3 Silvers and a Cache.
You buy a Province.


[Asklepios]

Okay, been trying it again with 1 trader, and this is about as fast as I've got it, 4 provinces by Turn 13:

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201202/15/game-20120215-025903-8589fb8a.html

...which is not at all bad.

However after running half a dozen solos with this, I've had a lot of variation, with the above game being the quickest to 4 provinces, but some games still taking as many as 18 turns to hit 4 provinces. It all seems to depend on what you draw the trader with after the first reshuffle. Trader-copper-copper-copper-estate is decent. Trader-4 coppers not so much so.