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Author Topic: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]  (Read 2944 times)

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Kuildeous

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #75 on: August 07, 2017, 08:09:06 am »
0

Okay, so this one did surprise me. I figured that when you show us Chekov's Ballista, then a dragon's gonna get killed. I was expecting a sudden reversal where the dragon is killed mid-air and Dany is captured.

But I'm not disappointed. The fact that the show (well, the book really) is not afraid to fuck with us means that it can continue to fuck with us when we expect to be fucked with. So yeah, well played.

I like to think that Dany is showing the internal struggle of how power is affecting her. She keeps insisting on Jon to bend the knee. She accuses him of letting pride get in the way when that's exactly what's happening to her. And at one point, she was furious enough to seriously consider burning down the Red Keep. She did manage to stay her hand and choose a military target with no civilian casualties. And well, I'm sure the direction given to the actors was, "Remember, you've never ever seen a dragon, so shit your pants." They did pretty well.

It's interesting that they show Jaime sinking in his armor but not him actually dying. My wife says there's no way they can save him. And the story indicates that he will be saved. After all, if the intent was to kill Jaime off, then the dragonfire would have been a satisfying final scene. But no, he was saved, and he likely will survive into next episode.

How? Right now, the only method I can think of is that the dragon is commanded to pull Jaime out of the water—perhaps at the behest of Tyrion, who still has affection for Jaime.  I would find it highly unlikely that anybody could dive in and pull him up.
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Kuildeous

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #76 on: August 07, 2017, 08:14:17 am »
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The one thing that I kept wondering though (and not for the first time), is-- did real knights really use to practice with real swords? As great as that Arya vs Brienne scene was, it did seem unnecessarily dangerous.

I was cringing during that scene because I was afraid GoT was going to happen.

Brienne's sword looked rounded to me, though I admit I'm no weapons expert. So I figured she was using a practice sword. Still, the way she swung that could still be lethal. I figured that she let Arya use real weapons because she figured Arya would lose.

I wondered if the darkness would consume Arya, especially when she was kicked so savagely in the chest, and that she would blindly strike to kill. I think the story would have taken a darker turn if she had lashed out and killed Brienne through instinct. That would be just like GoT for a happy reunion to be marred by a brutal murder where Arya has to escape before she can even get a chance to see Jon again.

Speaking of family reunions, what Jon said to Theron was apt enough. That would be difficult seeing the man who betrayed your entire family.
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Teproc

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #77 on: August 07, 2017, 08:38:53 am »
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This episode was already very good before the battle: The Winterfell Starks stuff was very strong, the Jon/Dany scenes actually felt like two characters speaking to each other (as opposed to the naked plot machinations earlier), and then GoT got to do what it does best, which is terrifying and awesome battle sequences.

Best episode of GoT in years.
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silverspawn

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #78 on: August 07, 2017, 08:49:21 am »
0

Brienne's sword looked rounded to me, though I admit I'm no weapons expert.
Oh, okay, that might totally be true, and would be good. I didn't pay attention to it.

She did manage to stay her hand and choose a military target with no civilian casualties.

Yeah, that is a really good compromise. It's not really worse than normal fighting, at least I don't see why it would be. If anything it'll kill fewer people total because the fight will be one-sided. And it's much less harmful for Danny if people hear "she used dragons to kill the lannister army" vs if they actually see their homes burnt down. I don't think she should use dragons against the city and I don't think she will. Now that things look much better for her again, she's less likely to do extreme things.

Another thing I thought about – it would have been smarter if Danny, after seeing the weapon initially (it did miss once before it hit), had turned around and fled. The battle was won at that point, the main purpose of the dragon was arguably to scare the shit out of everyone and totally annihilate the defenders advantage, and had already worked. But of course she's super mad and furious at that point and took the risk.

It never occurred to me that the practice scene might turn out ugly, though on hindsight I agree there was a chance. I think I'm glad it went well. It'd have been a real shock but also so sad and unfair to Brienne. And the way it went was great. I love howit was a somewhat even fight once Brienne realized what she was dealing with.

This episode was already very good before the battle: The Winterfell Starks stuff was very strong, the Jon/Dany scenes actually felt like two characters speaking to each other (as opposed to the naked plot machinations earlier), and then GoT got to do what it does best, which is terrifying and awesome battle sequences.

Best episode of GoT in years.

I think it's my favorite overall. There wasn't any scene so far which got me as riled up as the final stretch of this episode.

Teproc

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #79 on: August 07, 2017, 09:01:04 am »
0

Brienne's sword clearly seemed blunted to me, though I was surprised at the violence with which she was wielding it. Never crossed my mind that Arya might inadvertently cross the line, I basically assume she has super-human control.

Dany turning back would have been the best move strategically, assuming no survivors. It does look better to stay and win - thereby confirming dragons are the real deal - but less safe. Suits Dany pretty well though.

I do think Jaime survives this, unfortunately. Nothing against him, and I can see how there is a lot of unresolved business that warrants having him around for story/character reasons, but it was shaping up to be a memorable death.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 09:02:19 am by Teproc »
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Kuildeous

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #80 on: August 07, 2017, 10:55:25 am »
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It never occurred to me that the practice scene might turn out ugly, though on hindsight I agree there was a chance. I think I'm glad it went well. It'd have been a real shock but also so sad and unfair to Brienne. And the way it went was great. I love howit was a somewhat even fight once Brienne realized what she was dealing with.


As I think more on it, I think it would have been a better story if Arya's murderous side did emerge, and she killed (or at least maimed) Brienne. The scene didn't contribute too much except for showing us what a badass Arya is now, and we already knew that. But Littlefinger witnessed this and had a reaction, so I suppose the scene does advance the story; I just can't see the result of it yet, and that's fine too.

If I had written that part of the story, I would have thrown in that tragedy. But then, they're looking to wrap up the series next season. Having Arya's dark side come out would have introduced a new complication, and I don't know that they would want to go that route so close to the conclusion.

I did like the realization of who Arya was. Sansa laughed off Arya's list. She was probably thinking, "Yeah, I got a list of people I'd like to kill too." But then Bran's spooky ubiquitous vision confirmed that the ever-shortening list is legitimate, and Sansa was taken aback by this revelation.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #81 on: August 07, 2017, 11:07:54 am »
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I don't quite get this.  Arya doesn't kill indiscriminately; she kills with purpose.  She also seems in complete control of her emotions.  She doesn't have any reason to kill Brienne. 

I think the point of the scene is to show the other characters (like Sansa) how much of a badass Arya is.  Bran's comment tells Sansa that Arya's list is a real thing; that display shows her that Arya has the ability to make good on it.

Also, Arya besting Brienne who bested the Hound confirms to Arya that she could kill the Hound if she had still wanted to.
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silverspawn

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #82 on: August 07, 2017, 11:18:41 am »
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I think the point of the scene is to show the other characters (like Sansa) how much of a badass Arya is.  Bran's comment tells Sansa that Arya's list is a real thing; that display shows her that Arya has the ability to make good on it.
yes, exactly.

Kirian

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #83 on: August 07, 2017, 12:14:21 pm »
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Spoiler: everyone dies.
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Kuildeous

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #84 on: August 07, 2017, 01:06:52 pm »
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Since they brought the Hound back to life and Arya specifically tested herself against the only person to have bested the Hound, I'm guessing that Arya's going to encounter the Hound and strike him off her list.

The question becomes if he's contrite enough to warrant Arya sparing his life.

Where is the Hound going to anyway? I forgot if they mentioned a destination or if he's just wandering.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #85 on: August 07, 2017, 01:18:49 pm »
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The Hound is with Beric Dondarrian and Thoros of Myr.  They evidently recognize the threat of the White Walkers.  I think they're heading north, though I'm not sure it was stated.

I don't think Arya wishes to kill the Hound any more.  She had already removed his name from the list, or at least questioned it being there.
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Robz888

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #86 on: August 07, 2017, 06:05:23 pm »
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Well that was the best episode of the season. The Winterfell stuff is decently interesting, it's nice to see Littlefinger possibly ever so concerned about his position.

But of course the real home run was the battle. It was so great, except I think they should have just gone ahead and killed someone we cared about. But anyway, that dragon, wow. Was nice to see Daeny and Tyrion finally even the odds.

It makes no sense for Jamie to still be alive, but he is definitely still alive.

My prediction: Papa Tarly refuses to bend the knee and Daeny feeds him to her dragon.
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Elestan

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #87 on: August 07, 2017, 08:41:52 pm »
+1

Another thing I thought about – it would have been smarter if Dani, after seeing the weapon initially (it did miss once before it hit), had turned around and fled. The battle was won at that point, the main purpose of the dragon was arguably to scare the shit out of everyone and totally annihilate the defenders advantage, and had already worked. But of course she's super mad and furious at that point and took the risk.

I enjoyed the episode, but the horrible tactics made it rather painful:

The Lannister troops were all lined up to meet the Dothraki charge; if Dani had flown in from the side, she could have torched their entire line in the first pass, instead of just punching a small hole in it.  Or, if she'd simply made a surprise attack run before the horde became audible, she could have thrown the camp into enough disarray that the Dothraki charge would have caught them before they could form the shield wall.

Torching the wagons also made no sense.  With that many barbarians plus the dragon, this was not a hit-and-run raid; she intended to own the field of battle after the fight, which means she just incinerated her own spoils.  She should have taken the supplies, and brought them, along with any Highgarden survivors, to Casterly Rock, to break the siege and resupply her Unsullied.

Plus, as others have noted, there was no need for her to make an attack run on the scorpion; her own troops could have (should have, would have) seen the threat to her and overrun it themselves.

These tactical mistakes particularly irked me because she's getting advice from Tyrion, who has been presented as having a gift for clever plans. 

Of course, Jamie should be executed for incompetence for not having outriders atop that rise so that an entire barbarian army didn't sneak up on his troops while they were strung out and vulnerable.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 08:46:00 pm by Elestan »
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Robz888

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #88 on: August 07, 2017, 08:59:40 pm »
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^^All of that.
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Kuildeous

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #89 on: August 07, 2017, 11:10:31 pm »
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The photo of the Game of Thrones game is funny enough, but the linked comments are just icing:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/132851767828/permalink/10155568530197829/?comment_id=10155568551077829
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silverspawn

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #90 on: August 08, 2017, 04:40:14 am »
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Good points. I'm less convinced that all of these are narrative mistakes, however – the point was that she didn't listen to Tyrion this time, so presumably no-one briefed her on the finer strategic details. Although destroying the wagons was pretty stupid. I'm glad I didn't think about it during the episode, so it didn't decrease my enjoyment :D

And she was much more efficient with using the splash damage from the dragon than ever before. When they attacked the ships, they also didn't breath fire for that long without some breaks. Maybe they can't.

Finally, going alone before the army is actually not something I would do. The whole point Tyrion made was "one arrow and you can be dead." This way way the smaller risk.

Oh, and as for Jamie not being warned, well if they just approached in full gallop, wouldn't the warning arrive at the same time that they hear it anyway?

Elestan

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #91 on: August 08, 2017, 08:42:39 am »
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Finally, going alone before the army is actually not something I would do. The whole point Tyrion made was "one arrow and you can be dead." This way way the smaller risk.

Clearly she wasn't worried about that, though.  My point was that a gliding dragon is pretty silent, so she could have probably maximized its effectiveness by doing one properly timed
surprise attack from a different direction than her very loud charging barbarians.  And one such attack might have been all she needed to do.

Quote
Oh, and as for Jamie not being warned, well if they just approached in full gallop, wouldn't the warning arrive at the same time that they hear it anyway?

There are these things called horns...plus that's why you put scouts in high places, so they see the enemy coming in advance.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 08:51:14 am by Elestan »
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silverspawn

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #92 on: August 08, 2017, 09:34:03 am »
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There are these things called horns...plus that's why you put scouts in high places, so they see the enemy coming in advance.
I see your military skills exceed mine :D you're right.

Let's see if there is a Jaime left to be fired next episode.

Witherweaver

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #93 on: August 14, 2017, 06:31:22 pm »
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The end of that episode was like the beginning of an epic D&D adventure. 
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jonts26

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #94 on: August 14, 2017, 07:11:47 pm »
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So I've been enjoying the season quite a bit but it's just felt so rushed. The plotting has been sloppy. But the biggest crime is they are just glossing over what should be some serious character interactions. With so many intersecting plots they really need to take a step back and just let these scenes breathe.
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Robz888

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #95 on: August 14, 2017, 07:50:52 pm »
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Yeah, the plan to capture a wight and show it to Cersei is just too ridiculous. King's Landing is more vulnerable than ever: the Dothraki and dragons should really just take it. Daeny has no reason to stall for time, even if the Night King is an immediate threat. It would take far less time to BBQ Cersei and take the throne, and then they don't need to worry about going all the way north, finding a wight, bringing it back, and asking for a temporary truce.

And I second the complaint that we are blowing through waaay too many interesting character combos. What would Gendry have to say about Daenerys? What about Varys and Ser Jorah, his one-time spy? I'd gladly take a couple more scenes between Ser Davos and Tyrion (or Ser Davos and anyone, really). And none of the characters who used to call Dragonstone a home really got much space to reckon with the things that had happened to them there (Melisandre, Ser Davos, Gendry).

The stuff happening in Winterfell is potentially quite interesting, but it's not getting fleshed out very well, which is because we haven't spent enough time seeing the characters interact with each other.

Also, it still feels weird to have no one of any importance in King's Landing, other than Cersei and Jamie and I guess Qyburn. This would be defensible if the other storylines were getting more time in return, but somehow I feel like Sam mostly came out ahead, and Sam's story is just not that interesting, even though I quite like Sam. (Gilly casually discovering that Jon Snow isn't actually a bastard--and being promptly ignored--was actually quite amazing.)

The wight-hunting team is also pretty ridiculous, such a random assortment of characters. I feel pretty under-invested in Thoros and Beric, so I assume they aren't going to make it. Ser Jorah might be in danger, too... there can't be very much left in his arc.

Finally, the teleportation problem is insanely glaring, although I respect the show for being so committed to ignoring it.

Anyway, that's a lot of complaints, but I'm quite liking the season!
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Kuildeous

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #96 on: August 15, 2017, 08:15:38 am »
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Finally, the teleportation problem is insanely glaring, although I respect the show for being so committed to ignoring it.
 

Not the least that Jaime fell into a lake that apparently drops for several meters just off the shoreline who is then lifted up by Bronn's amazing strength in an area far away from the fighting. I simply rolled my eyes at that scene and promptly set it on ignore mode. I'm not letting that ruin my enjoyment of the show.

I figured that the only one who could pull Jaime's armored and gold-handed form would have been the dragon and only because Tyrion (through another feat of teleportation perhaps) convinced Dany to save his brother.

So that was Sam's father that was executed, right? So no further resolution to Sam stealing the sword? Or I guess that means that by stealing it, he spared it from getting incinerated.
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The_Wine_Merchant

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #97 on: August 15, 2017, 11:23:37 pm »
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That episode was a roller coaster and not just because of the storyline. I was very back and forth on the quality of the episode where some moments were "this is the worst Game of Thrones has been in a long time" and then minutes later "this is fucking awesome!"

I do feel that much of this season is relying on its previous seasons in a variety of areas. For example. Game of Thrones laboriously showed how slowly people move in the Seven Kingdoms over many, many episodes across nearly all of the seasons up to this. That they are ignoring it now, is easier to dismiss as I know in the back of my mind that there many issues and troubles and dangers that accompany traveling that aren't being shown because they have already been explored.

But I do think this season is missing some of the "common man" elements. We aren't seeing the effect that the wars and turmoil is having on them. Did a horde of Dothraki really cross most of Westeros without leaving a wake of devastation (aside from the crushed Lannister army)? And if they didn't, how did Danny accomplish that? What are the dragons (along with the rest of the people) eating. Dragonstone doesn't exactly have a burgeoning economy. Who is supplying them with food? Where did Davos get fermented crab?

I feel like Game of Thrones, in the past, touches on these moments, but hasn't had the time to prioritize them. And now all we are seeing are the nobles being noble around other nobles. It is fun, but it loses something as a result.

But mostly what Robz said:

Anyway, that's a lot of complaints, but I'm quite liking the season!
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mcmcsalot

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #98 on: August 16, 2017, 11:09:53 am »
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Totally agree with twm about how the show has lost some of its "groundedness" in showing us the little things. It interesting because I am in the middle of a podcast that is rewatching lost and they are on episodes 5 and 6 of the final season. It's quite interesting to see how much that show also picked up the pace a huge amount in the final two seasons where the thought of a "filler" episode of which lost had a few seems crazy. GoT is also suffering from the problem of bringing to a close this epic sprawling fantasy realm it created. Now that everything has to have a purpose the little things that made it great are falling away but in place of that we are getting tons of juicy plot advancement which we have been craving.

None of this has been a direct problem for me but Sam leaving old town really hurts, it's he literally went there and we got comic relief, massive plot point which was redundant dragon glass, comic relief, jora es machina, blah blah, massive plot point which was also pretty widely accepted Jon targaryen, I'm leaving! His whole being there feels crammed down my throat, but without them being okay doing that I would never get gendri/jora/brotherhood/wildings all dnd partying it up in the north. Assembling that kind of team and important characters would have taken a whole season in the past so there are lots of pros and cons to "wrapping" a sprawling universe to match one plot.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #99 on: August 16, 2017, 11:22:56 am »
+1

Now, GRRM, I am trusting you won't do this, but I don't mind you taking your time to finish the books. No need to rush through story lines to finish.

Just don't go all-out wheel of time on us and not ever get around to finishing.
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