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mcmcsalot

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Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« on: July 17, 2017, 09:44:20 am »
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Hey so I really enjoyed the survivor thread where people discussed their thoughts on current episodes and I'm sure there are lots of game of thrones fans that would enjoy doing the same.

I figure the thread has one big spoiler warning so no need to use spoiler tags unless it's for book specific knowledge which pure show watchers may or may not want to know. Assume when coming to the thread that you have seen the most recently aired episode.

I would love to discuss everything from plot theories and thoughts to episode structure and directorial decisions.
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mcmcsalot

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2017, 10:41:03 am »
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As for my thoughts on the first episode I would give it an A rating.

I have been very upset about the change to 7 hours as opposed to 10 because other than just wanting more got, I have felt in the past certain characters would have benefitted from more screen time and development. All those concerns were put to rest as this episode did a great job touching base with every single faction (aside from olenna & dorn) and I didn't feel rushed with any of them.

My favorite part of the episode was probably the part with the mountain, they have really taken his character a long way and have transitioned him from comedic one-liners to "audience voice" really well. It feels like he thinks differently from everyone else in a very real non fantasy way but is forced to fit into this fantasy world and the interactions caused by that are wonderful.

I'm curious how other people felt about the opening. I thought it was interesting that they used the break to allow the possibility that the scene was showing us what happend prior to walda frey's death and actually thought that was what they were doing untill (s)he told the daughter not to drink the wine. We're other people caught off guard or did you think it had to be arya since she just killed him?

I was probably most disappointed with the scenes in the north. Sansa is the character I most wish the show had done a better job developing up to this point. It frustrating because her relationship with John has barely been shown and Sansa's overall "clever level" hasn't really been developed either. It's clear she wishes she was Queen in the north and given the respect she deserves for bringing the nights of the veil to the table but the exchanges with her and John insinuate she is truly proud of John and thinks he makes a good leader. Overall it just feels like her characters true motivations are really all over the place and it's hard to place what she wants. I sadly think it may be the fact that Sophie turner isn't the best actress and so she is portraying Sansa's emotions very on the nose. When she said "I know what he(littlefinger) wants" I don't know if she thinks he just wants her, or if she realizes he wants to create a divide between her and John because together littlefinger has to help them and has to be second to John but divided he has more power then either commanding the knights of the veil.

Loved loved loved the intro to old town and the citadel, I thought it strung together well and really got the gross and tedious nature of sams job across. Though I was a little taken aback and I'm curious if others felt similarly. The repetitive nature of that opening scene typically indicates a passage of time even longer than shown, as though this is what been going on for so long were snap cutting it together in faster and faster clips to "speed through time" to present moment. However contrast that to arya at the trident and it seems like this season has picked up right after the end of the last season. Maybe I am forgetting how long Sam is supposed to have been at the citadel, but that struck me as a bit odd. Other than that I loved the exchange between Sam and the grand maester. I'm slightly torn be the fact that I'm happy they have set up a season arc right off the bat, Sam finds the dragon glass John needs, and Dany lands in Westeros on top of said dragon glass, but slightly frustrated at the deus ex machina nature of a giant mine of dragon glass. I would have preferred Sam perhaps discover dragon glass is created by extreme heat reacting to saline deposits and then show one of the dragons flam broiling and eating a bird atop a rock on the coast of dragonstone, show the rock that has been beaten by salt water turn into a glimmering shard of dragon glass and then pan the camera down through the earth to reveal the giant deposits of dragon glass. That gets the same outcome but feel much less cheap I think.

Lastly I enjoyed the jora mormont tag and I hope sets up for Sam to cure his stone skin and be part of the catalyst for John/Sam to work with dany in the future.

Oh and the actor who played yuron greyjoy lost too much weight/cut off too much hair in between seasons, curious if anyone else felt that way, I mean I'm all for gettin fitnknce you've got yourself a big role in a show but yeesh did they need to dress in in tight leather pants a mesh shirt, we get it he's supposed to be sexually threatening to Jamie, he might has well strolled in and asked Circe "how you doin?".

That's all for now, looking forward to discussing thought with everyone and watching more Game of Thrones!
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Robz888

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2017, 12:31:14 pm »
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Yay!!! Great idea.

I have been very upset about the change to 7 hours as opposed to 10 because other than just wanting more got, I have felt in the past certain characters would have benefitted from more screen time and development. All those concerns were put to rest as this episode did a great job touching base with every single faction (aside from olenna & dorn) and I didn't feel rushed with any of them.

I agree, I was worried about the shorter season, but the thing is, there are actually fewer characters than there have ever been, so now we have ample time to spend with everyone. I mean, just King's Landing has always had so many people we barely had time to check in with everybody every week, but now it's practically empty, just Cersei and Jamie.

My favorite part of the episode was probably the part with the mountain, they have really taken his character a long way and have transitioned him from comedic one-liners to "audience voice" really well. It feels like he thinks differently from everyone else in a very real non fantasy way but is forced to fit into this fantasy world and the interactions caused by that are wonderful.

I think you mean the Hound! But I agree. He's had a great redemptive arc, very believable. They are also doing a great job of selling the Brotherhood as a group of people you would actually want to join, because hey, they're pretty good people, unlike everyone else.


I'm slightly torn be the fact that I'm happy they have set up a season arc right off the bat, Sam finds the dragon glass John needs, and Dany lands in Westeros on top of said dragon glass, but slightly frustrated at the deus ex machina nature of a giant mine of dragon glass. I would have preferred Sam perhaps discover dragon glass is created by extreme heat reacting to saline deposits and then show one of the dragons flam broiling and eating a bird atop a rock on the coast of dragonstone, show the rock that has been beaten by salt water turn into a glimmering shard of dragon glass and then pan the camera down through the earth to reveal the giant deposits of dragon glass. That gets the same outcome but feel much less cheap I think.

They really dropped the ball on this one because STANNIS ALREADY TOLD SAM THEY HAD DRAGONGLASS ON DRANGONSTONE. Why did Sam need to sail around the world for an entire season to learn something he already knew?

Oh and the actor who played yuron greyjoy lost too much weight/cut off too much hair in between seasons, curious if anyone else felt that way, I mean I'm all for gettin fitnknce you've got yourself a big role in a show but yeesh did they need to dress in in tight leather pants a mesh shirt, we get it he's supposed to be sexually threatening to Jamie, he might has well strolled in and asked Circe "how you doin?".

This slightly rebooted version of Euron is, however, a bit more in keeping with the books, which portray Euron as a very sexy/sexual pirate dude. And also a complete homicidal maniac in the Joffrey/Ramsay vein, which so far the show has tempered a bit. I don't mind it, frankly. Enough sadism.

Other thoughts:

-- I'm not sure I buy Dragonstone being completely abandoned. Stannis would have left like a couple people to guard it. I could see those people surrender to Daeny upon her arrival, since they have no one to fight for... but completely abandoned? Nah.

-- The producers did a good job of making Dragonstone, a place we've already visited, seem new and interesting again. For Stannis, Dragonstone was the out-of-the-way castle he got stuck with bitterly. But for Daeny, it's her birth rite and homecoming. That said, I didn't love the addition of the Eastern-looking dragon statues, doesn't really fit with established Targaryen aesthetic.

-- All the costumes, in general, while very cool-looking, were a bit too modern and sci fi ish. The Kingsguard members look like Cylon centurions. Even Sansa looks like she's ordering her dresses from the Mad Queen's catalogue.

-- Similarly, the dialogue has gotten too modern--probably because the showrunners no longer have Martin's written dialogue to rely on. (These are small complaints, mind you.)

-- Where is Melisandre? I thought maybe she had gone back to Dragonstone, but apparently not.

-- Show!Jamie, unlike Book!Jamie, still seems pretty devoted to Cersei.

-- It was nice change of pace to encounter a group of random soldiers who were just, you know, friendly.

-- I love Arya, and her revenge is cool, but it's a little morally uncomplicated for my tastes. (I prefer the Lady Stoneheart revenge arc from the books, which is cool but makes you start thinking hey, is this kind of just as bad as the thing they are avenging?)
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 12:32:55 pm by Robz888 »
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Robz888

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2017, 12:39:56 pm »
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Unlike mcmc, I did actually like the drama in the north just fine. Jon and Sansa aren't opposed to each other, but they're not always on the same page, and the show has done a good job of setting that up: of course Sansa cares more about King's Landing stuff, she's never actually seen the White Walkers or zombies, whereas of course Jon cares more about the Night's King, he's existed outside traditional dynasty politics. And it makes sense for Sansa to feel a little slighted by Jon becoming king, and she's clearly been influenced by both Cersei and Littlefinger. I even found it totally believable for Sansa to think disinheriting the Karstarks and Umbers was right, and for Jon to disagree. So there was a lot of northern tension that I thought was surprisingly well grounded in believable conflict.
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mcmcsalot

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2017, 01:32:54 pm »
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They really dropped the ball on this one because STANNIS ALREADY TOLD SAM THEY HAD DRAGONGLASS ON DRANGONSTONE. Why did Sam need to sail around the world for an entire season to learn something he already knew?
I forgot about that! Ugh maybe that what the show was hoping for but jeez that makes it that much worse. Also why is the location of dragon glass in the restricted area of the library, also why a restricted area in the citadel at all. Very overused trope of the "restricted area" holds all the things you need to know without any explaination as to why they are restricted. At least the grand maester Sam talked to had a good point of it's not that I don't believe you, in fact evidence points to you must be telling the truth but what we are doing here in more important than anything the people outside this citidel can even imagine.

Other thoughts:

-- I'm not sure I buy Dragonstone being completely abandoned. Stannis would have left like a couple people to guard it. I could see those people surrender to Daeny upon her arrival, since they have no one to fight for... but completely abandoned? Nah.
Couldn't agree more, it cheapens stannis's whole theme of a stubborn unmoving tactician to leave his entire castle empty. Though I wouldn't be surprised if they shot some people surrendering to dany and it felt out of place/didn't fit into her homecoming scene when it hit the edit bay because as you say that whole scene was really well done.

-- The producers did a good job of making Dragonstone, a place we've already visited, seem new and interesting again. For Stannis, Dragonstone was the out-of-the-way castle he got stuck with bitterly. But for Daeny, it's her birth rite and homecoming. That said, I didn't love the addition of the Eastern-looking dragon statues, doesn't really fit with established Targaryen aesthetic.
From the perspective of a casual viewer(my wife) it definitely felt like a special moment, when they showed the stone figurines which we have previously scene stannis's moving around when planning his battles she went "aww are those her toys from when she was a baby". So the scene definitely did its job of making the place feel special to dany.

-- All the costumes, in general, while very cool-looking, were a bit too modern and sci fi ish. The Kingsguard members look like Cylon centurions. Even Sansa looks like she's ordering her dresses from the Mad Queen's catalogue.
Ugh yea I found this pretty atrocious, I mean isn't one of the plot point supposed to be that the crown is broke and owes tons of money to the bank, where did they get the money to commission new armor for all of the kingsguard. Like leave the gold armor, change the white cloth accents to black cloth accents, woulda been much more belivable.

-- Where is Melisandre? I thought maybe she had gone back to Dragonstone, but apparently not.
One of the only characters not shown, I think this is another timing problem. Last we saw she was in her little dungeon room being all old. I would guess she is going to run into the brotherhood especially with the hound continually making fun of the priest guy for being old and balding.

-- It was nice change of pace to encounter a group of random soldiers who were just, you know, friendly.

-- I love Arya, and her revenge is cool, but it's a little morally uncomplicated for my tastes. (I prefer the Lady Stoneheart revenge arc from the books, which is cool but makes you start thinking hey, is this kind of just as bad as the thing they are avenging?)
I think these two point actually go together and will begin to bring the morality into aria's revenge arc. Previously all she has encountered are pure good and pure evil characters really, now she finds a group of Lannister soldiers who are genuinely kind and want to go home to see there families. I feel like they are trying to hint at a not all Lannister people are bad, maybe you should go be with your brother and sister kind of vibe.
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mcmcsalot

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2017, 01:52:30 pm »
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Unlike mcmc, I did actually like the drama in the north just fine. Jon and Sansa aren't opposed to each other, but they're not always on the same page, and the show has done a good job of setting that up: of course Sansa cares more about King's Landing stuff, she's never actually seen the White Walkers or zombies, whereas of course Jon cares more about the Night's King, he's existed outside traditional dynasty politics. And it makes sense for Sansa to feel a little slighted by Jon becoming king, and she's clearly been influenced by both Cersei and Littlefinger. I even found it totally believable for Sansa to think disinheriting the Karstarks and Umbers was right, and for Jon to disagree. So there was a lot of northern tension that I thought was surprisingly well grounded in believable conflict.
I guess I should elaborate, I loved all of that scene. It was specifically after when they are walking outside and Sansa says she thinks John is really good at this, she just delivers the line really genuinely only to really feel the opposite and I think her character is supposed to feel like she would be doing a better job. I may be off on where the show wants her character to go but I really think they are setting her up to make a power play against John and so some of these kind "I'm worried about you and don't want you to end up like rob and Ned" statements are going to fly in the face of that. And I really didn't get she acted so old toward littlefinger it seems like she doesn't like him and thinks he just wants to get with her, but then she should be pretty happy because she's got him wrapped around her finger and not all annoyed like his prescence is a problem.
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mcmcsalot

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2017, 01:54:05 pm »
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Side grumble didn't it take like months to get from the wall to the third eyed raven with hodor carying bran and somehow girl reed dragged bran all the way back the the wall in an evening?
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Robz888

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2017, 02:17:30 pm »
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Side grumble didn't it take like months to get from the wall to the third eyed raven with hodor carying bran and somehow girl reed dragged bran all the way back the the wall in an evening?

Uncle Benjen helped! But yes the show increasingly takes great liberties with geography. Varys went all the way from Mereen to Dorne and back to meet up with the fleet before it reached Dragonstone, Arya went from Braavos to the Twins in an episode, yet somehow it took Sam an entire season to get to Oldtown? Plus everybody moves around the north like it's no big deal, when in reality the north is gigantic and the Wall isn't anywhere near Winterfell.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2017, 03:14:41 pm »
+2

And here we have a thread where two brothers engage in a public discussion of game of thrones.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2017, 03:36:31 pm »
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And here we have a thread where two brothers engage in a public discussion of game of thrones.
Well it would be great if other people joined in and the forum is easier to structure long form discussion than text so there!
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silverspawn

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2017, 04:39:52 pm »
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It was great!

I don't at all agree about Sansa. I think she's one of the characters with the longest and best development. I was so happy when she was still alive at the beginning of last season.

start:  Super naive, has no idea how the world works, dumb girl fantasies
-> Realizes her fantasies were BS but thinks joffrey is just evil and others are good
->– Gradually realizes that the world is terrible. Does tons of wrong decisions through bad luck. Gradually gets smarter
-> Disillusioned pragmatism

She's no Margery, and she won't be, because, well, she's just less intelligent. But I think she pretty much completed her arc.

Right now she just wants the same as John, to survive and protect everyone. I don't think she wants to be queen or has status concerns. Littlefinger wants her to be queen, but what gave you the impression that she wants it too? I think if you don't assume that it makes more sense. Or did I forget some crucial scene?

@costumes: I'm not the type to pay any attention but I agree that it's a bad move. I heard someone point out that the high sparrow followers had really authentic, primitive weapons last season, so it's a big disappointing if they didn't put more thought into it this time.

The cuts in the library were really funny. It just kept going.

Quote from: Robz
It was nice change of pace to encounter a group of random soldiers who were just, you know, friendly.
Totally agreed. it's only logical that those exist, too. I'm glad there wasn't a twist there.

I also liked the last scene there. I actually tried to come up with a reason for why Arya would go to King's Landing when she was asked, but I couldn't come up with anything. And the way I read the scene was also that she didn't want to say the truth but just couldn't come up with any believably reason.

Quote
I'm curious how other people felt about the opening. I thought it was interesting that they used the break to allow the possibility that the scene was showing us what happend prior to walda frey's death and actually thought that was what they were doing untill (s)he told the daughter not to drink the wine. We're other people caught off guard or did you think it had to be arya since she just killed him?
I immediately thought it must be one of the two and also immediately suspected poison. When Walder/Arya didn't drink it was clear.

Don't they put the last book into 2 seasons? So isn't it 4 more episodes, rather than 3 less? (14 episodes for 1 book.)

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2017, 04:43:16 pm »
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Side grumble didn't it take like months to get from the wall to the third eyed raven with hodor carying bran and somehow girl reed dragged bran all the way back the the wall in an evening?
I think it's possible that several months have passed (-> Jora). I assume you don't need quite as long to cross the narrow sea, but the story lines don't necessary all happen on a linear timescale.

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2017, 04:50:12 pm »
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Side grumble didn't it take like months to get from the wall to the third eyed raven with hodor carying bran and somehow girl reed dragged bran all the way back the the wall in an evening?
I think it's possible that several months have passed (-> Jora). I assume you don't need quite as long to cross the narrow sea, but the story lines don't necessary all happen on a linear timescale.
I agree they must just be showing the different storylines at different times, it just gets awkward when it's pretty clear John and arya have picked up days after the left off and varys/Sam/bran have had a long passage of time since we last saw them.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2017, 05:09:32 pm »
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I don't at all agree about Sansa. I think she's one of the characters with the longest and best development. I was so happy when she was still alive at the beginning of last season.

start:  Super naive, has no idea how the world works, dumb girl fantasies
-> Realizes her fantasies were BS but thinks joffrey is just evil and others are good
->– Gradually realizes that the world is terrible. Does tons of wrong decisions through bad luck. Gradually gets smarter
-> Disillusioned pragmatism

Right now she just wants the same as John, to survive and protect everyone. I don't think she wants to be queen or has status concerns. Littlefinger wants her to be queen, but what gave you the impression that she wants it too? I think if you don't assume that it makes more sense. Or did I forget some crucial scene?
I agree with what you say about Sansa's arc, that's where I think she is now. Where I get lost is the jump to why should she have the same feelings about wanting to protect anyone. We have never gotten to see Sansa love the north, or their people. We haven't gotten to see her the way we have seen John torn over wanting to help rob, we haven't had any development really with Sansa and other starks other than her sassing arya and John in early seasons. I think Sansa's only believable motives at this point are vengeance against the boltons and anyone involved in her suffering and self preservation. So with that in mind John wanting to do what's for "the greater good" puts Sansa at risk. I wish I could understand her wanting to help the people of the north out it's just not there. Also I don't think you missed any scene but the end of last season they did sort of zoom in on Sansa as the banner men were chanting "king in the north" and then cut to littlefinger smirking as though to say they will never put you before him. So it's that scene that I know don't get meshing with her talking to littlefinger and being all snarky towards him and telling brienne "I know what he wants" whatever that is.

I also liked the last scene there. I actually tried to come up with a reason for why Arya would go to King's Landing when she was asked, but I couldn't come up with anything. And the way I read the scene was also that she didn't want to say the truth but just couldn't come up with any believably reason.
What's even more interesting is that we know she has fully passed assasin school and can at any moment have a story 100% foolproof and fake, so I don't think it's that she couldn't come up with a lie, but that she didn't want to lie! If we think back to who arya has spent the last few seasons with she has been around the hound and Jacken Hagar who are both pretty ruthless people(with their own quirks of course), these are the first genuinely nice and normal people she has encountered in forever.

Don't they put the last book into 2 seasons? So isn't it 4 more episodes, rather than 3 less? (14 episodes for 1 book.)
Ah I didn't realize that these two seasons were meant to be covering what will eventually be 1 book. In that case not only is the cast smaller but there will be less plot to cover as well making time even more excited.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2017, 05:11:02 pm »
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As for my thoughts on the first episode I would give it an A rating.

I have been very upset about the change to 7 hours as opposed to 10 because other than just wanting more got
I feel like these two statements are mutually exclusive.

If this season had 10 episodes I would have very much enjoyed this episode. But given that there are only 7, the pacing for this episode was too slow, setup too little and barely moved the plot forward. It was basically a season 6 recap. That is fine if you  have 9 more episodes to go. But with only 6 episodes left there isn't the time for lollygagging your way out of the gates.

I liked the episode and enjoyed it very much, but it left me looking at the clock, wondering if it was a great use of limited (self restricted time).
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2017, 05:12:59 pm »
+1

Sam's bedpan/soup scene felt like a TV commercial. Kept expecting something like "Wanna get away? Fly southwest." And him sitting on a beach in the Summer Islands.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2017, 11:57:29 pm »
+1

Arya is so awesome.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2017, 05:56:14 pm »
+2

Cersei, Euron and Dany are all utterly stupid in regard to Dragonstone :D

Cersei: You know there is an abandoned castle your enemy is going to take
     --> You don't take it

Euron: You pass Dragonstone twice on your way in and out of Kingslanding
     --> You don't take it

Dany: You walk by yourself as the first person of your faction into an abandoned castle your enemy could have easily taken, placed traps in or anything along those lines
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Robz888

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2017, 06:07:49 pm »
0

Sam: Dragon glass kills White Walkers.
Stannis: Oh, we have that on Dragonstone.
Sam: Jon, I need to go figure out stuff about dragon glass.
Jon: Okay, is there anything you want to tell me first...
Sam: BYE.
Later
Sam: Eureka, I discovered there's dragon glass on Dragonstone! I must tell Jon.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2017, 06:11:27 pm »
0

Sam: Dragon glass kills White Walkers.
Stannis: Oh, we have that on Dragonstone.
Sam: Jon, I need to go figure out stuff about dragon glass.
Jon: Okay, is there anything you want to tell me first...
Sam: BYE.
Later
Sam: Eureka, I discovered there's dragon glass on Dragonstone! I must tell Jon.

There was a throwaway line from Sam, like "Stannis had said something but I didn't think..." or something.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2017, 06:12:27 pm »
+1

Sam: Dragon glass kills White Walkers.
Stannis: Oh, we have that on Dragonstone.
Sam: Jon, I need to go figure out stuff about dragon glass.
Jon: Okay, is there anything you want to tell me first...
Sam: BYE.
Later
Sam: Eureka, I discovered there's dragon glass on Dragonstone! I must tell Jon.

There was a throwaway line from Sam, like "Stannis had said something but I didn't think..." or something.

Yes, that line was an embarrassingly half-hearted attempt to explain this plot hole. It failed.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2017, 06:15:04 pm »
0

Yeah, I was slightly taken aback by it.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2017, 03:45:40 am »
0

I'm always watching with my group on Thursdays, so be prepared for me chiming in late on a regular basis...

I'm curious how other people felt about the opening. I thought it was interesting that they used the break to allow the possibility that the scene was showing us what happend prior to walda frey's death and actually thought that was what they were doing untill (s)he told the daughter not to drink the wine. We're other people caught off guard or did you think it had to be arya since she just killed him?
I wanted to point out that it's actually his wife.

-- I'm not sure I buy Dragonstone being completely abandoned. Stannis would have left like a couple people to guard it. I could see those people surrender to Daeny upon her arrival, since they have no one to fight for... but completely abandoned? Nah.
Yeah; there was even talk of leaving Stannis' daughter behind, so apparently the plan was to have some people still be there. But on the other hand, I think I buy that they all fled when they heard that the scary dragon queen and her band of barbaric horsemen was coming for them.

-- Where is Melisandre? I thought maybe she had gone back to Dragonstone, but apparently not.
We still have a meetup of her/Arya scheduled, right? I think Melisandre said something to that effect when they last met.

-- I love Arya, and her revenge is cool, but it's a little morally uncomplicated for my tastes. (I prefer the Lady Stoneheart revenge arc from the books, which is cool but makes you start thinking hey, is this kind of just as bad as the thing they are avenging?)
Yep, I wonder where they are going with her. Having one payoff like that is nice, but it shouldn't just keep going. On the other hand I really don't want her to go back to just being a regular Stark daughter and abandoning her vengeance.

Sam: Dragon glass kills White Walkers.
Stannis: Oh, we have that on Dragonstone.
Sam: Jon, I need to go figure out stuff about dragon glass.
Jon: Okay, is there anything you want to tell me first...
Sam: BYE.
Later
Sam: Eureka, I discovered there's dragon glass on Dragonstone! I must tell Jon.
Yeah, that's bad. I think the problem is that the Oldtown journey was already set up back in season 5 and now there are no more books and the showrunners didn't quite know what to do there. In the books, Oldtown is definitely shaping up to be a bigger deal, but they couldn't put that into the show.

Does anyone else feel like the conflict in the south is looking rather disappointing right now? I mean on one side we have Daenerys, 3 awesome dragons, a whole bunch of likable characters plus the Queen of Thorns allied with Dorne, on the other side there are mostly villains with no troops and no food, plus Jaime who isn't really committed to the whole thing. There needs to be a major change to shake that up, and that's either Dany becoming more morally muddled or a big power shift (my money's on Euron luring away a dragon).

The interesting thing is how Dany reacts to the White Walker threat. I hope she goes "sure I'll save Westeros... as soon as all of it has sworn fealty to its rightful queen!"
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silverspawn

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2017, 04:03:27 am »
0

That's what I've been wondering the entire break. Right now power is extremely one-sided. Daenerys has the Tyrell army (the largest army in Westeros?), Dorne, half of the iron fleet, and 8000 Unsullid, and all the Dothraki, and dragons. Versus, not much.

But we all know that the right fight has to be against the White Walkers. Wouldn't it be kind of... symbolic if there is no dramatic change and Cersei just gets rolled over easily (or dies to Arya or gets killed by Jaimie before that can even happen)? It would show that if you destroy everything in your path, even if you get what you want it isn't worth much anymore.

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2017, 08:58:56 am »
0

I wanted to point out that it's actually his wife.
*insert road to el dorado "why not both" gif.

-- Where is Melisandre? I thought maybe she had gone back to Dragonstone, but apparently not.
We still have a meetup of her/Arya scheduled, right? I think Melisandre said something to that effect when they last met.
Oh an arya/Melissandra/gendri reunion would be fun with Melli all reformed and not kingsblood crazy and arya dealing with being crazy since the last time she saw gendri who she totally had a crush on and maybe he can cause her to be morally questionable.

Does anyone else feel like the conflict in the south is looking rather disappointing right now? I mean on one side we have Daenerys, 3 awesome dragons, a whole bunch of likable characters plus the Queen of Thorns allied with Dorne, on the other side there are mostly villains with no troops and no food, plus Jaime who isn't really committed to the whole thing. There needs to be a major change to shake that up, and that's either Dany becoming more morally muddled or a big power shift (my money's on Euron luring away a dragon).

The interesting thing is how Dany reacts to the White Walker threat. I hope she goes "sure I'll save Westeros... as soon as all of it has sworn fealty to its rightful queen!"
That an amazing theory, I was wondering what euron was going to get for cerci because there isn't anything she wants that isn't one of dany/tyrell/varus/dorn lady dead and it would be silly to have him like assasinate one of them but a dragon makes perfect sense!
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2017, 11:10:42 pm »
0

Ugh, the plan to split Daeny's forces was SOOOOO BAD. It's literally the only way she can lose. If they wanted to take Casterly Rock so bad, Daeny should just fly there and burn it the ground. Actually, a proper display of dragon power is probably the quickest way to get the people of King's Landing to rise up against Cersei. Daeny should burn some town and then tell the common people of KL that they have three days to avoid the same fate. It's not like anybody *wants* to follow Cersei. She blew up the sept!

Anyway, I've never really cared for the Sand Snakes--I was especially glad Tyrion called Ellaria out for killing Myrcella--so it was hard to be invested in the battle. Yara and Theon matter more, but was it just me or was the battle sort of mangled from a production standpoint? It was too dark and everyone looks too similar. And while last week Euron's characterization was a big improvement, this week I thought he was a tad too cartoonish.

I liked Daeny questioning Varys. I also liked Arya deciding to head north instead when she hears about Jon. Arya's revenge tour is fine but I actually like the idea that deep down, what she wants most of all, even more than revenge is reuniting with her family.

What else? Oh, Sam is cool. I like that he wanted to help Jorah, in part, because of his respect for Jorah's father, who was also a father figure to Sam. And it was cool to have those scenes in the same episode with Sam's actual father, Randyl Tarly, in King's Landing, being sort of a jerk. I assume he sides against the Tyrells and with Cersei, which is an additional blow to Daeny's forces.

I wonder if Daeny will realize how much worse her position is *before* she starts negotiating with Jon? Because she's in much less of a position to make him bend the knee now.

I'm excited to see Davos and Melisandre butt heads again, since those are two of my favorite characters, and their rivalry is much more interesting and sophisticated than a lot of other character relationships, IMO.
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Watno

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2017, 05:02:16 pm »
+1

How did Arya manage not to hear about Jon taking Winterfell before? She pretended to be Walder Frey for at least a couple of days (while noone noticed his sons missing and someone making pie out of them in the kitchen).

Also why doens't Missandei close the door before undressing?


And why can't GRRM finish the books already?
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2017, 06:38:22 pm »
0


And why can't GRRM finish the books already?
This. So much this.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #28 on: July 25, 2017, 01:14:15 am »
0


And why can't GRRM finish the books already?
This. So much this.

And even more this.

I have read yesterday that he's planning to publish the Winds of Winter AND the prequel (Blood and Fire or something, it's about Targaryens) in 2018. Then I suppose, the last book will see the light in 2094.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2017, 07:03:16 am »
0


And why can't GRRM finish the books already?
This. So much this.

And even more this.

I have read yesterday that he's planning to publish the Winds of Winter AND the prequel (Blood and Fire or something, it's about Targaryens) in 2018. Then I suppose, the last book will see the light in 2094.

I take it you're new to the ASoIaF thing ? The books will come out when they come out, and no one (not even GRRM most likely) knows when that is. It's better not to expect anything.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2017, 07:33:22 am »
0

Comparatively new, I've read them all a year ago and watched the series half a year ago.

I see your point, but funny thing is it was in the news yesterday, about publishing in 2018
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2017, 09:34:14 am »
0

GGRM has a long history of given optimistic release dates. Dance was originally said to be coming out 1 year after feast. Actually took 5.
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silverspawn

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2017, 05:20:59 pm »
0

I can't overstate how much I like Arya going north. Everyone (at least that was the sense I got) expected her to now value revenge over everything else. Her choosing not to is both defying expectations and also, I think, the more plausible choice.

Agree that splitting armies wasn't a good choice strategically (narratively it's fine. At least not like this. You could probably do it in a way that wouldn't leave you as vulnerable to Euron (whom they know is out there). For example, you could have Melisandre with them, if she actually has the power to see these kinds of attacks coming (which she has claimed after Stannis lost half of his fleet). Or something else.

The only thing where I disagree with what Robz said is that Danny is really still in a commanding position. Yeah, she suffered a big loss, but she still has the larger army and still has dragons. She had a gigantic lead before, now it's still a big lead.

Love Jorah. Super want him to be cured.

What would be incredibly cool but very unlikely is if Sansa, knowing how little finger is a timebomb, just decides to kill him next episode. She could do it, no question, she has the power, he wouldn't expect it, and if she does it in a smart way, she probably wouldn't even lose the army of the vale. Someone said, conspire with the #3 guy, then kill #1 and #2 (aka little finger and whoever is second in command). Something like that.

Really. She should do it. She knows how dangerous LF is. That would be the kind of smart choice which Robz and Ned weren't making that would seriously improve her agenda. Also imagine that kind of sudden end to such a character whom everyone expects to have a master plan. I really think it'd be one of the greatest moments in the show... but still not likely.

silverspawn

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #33 on: July 25, 2017, 05:52:13 pm »
0

Also something only tangentially related to the episode, but it made me think of it –

Melisandre is an amazing character.

First the mystery. Season 2, I had no idea what she wanted. A loyal servant to Stannis? A secret mastermind who plans to get rid of him as soon as it serves her? A legitimately insane person? A secret utilitarian just using others as tools? Or something else? I had all of those at similar odds. I really didn't know.

And now we do know. It's the first one. She's always been loyal, never planed to betray Stannis, she's legitimately believed she was fulfilling god's plan (it's even understandable, given that he gave her real power). And everything she's ever done makes sense knowing that.

Also in typical GoT strength, a gray character. Burns people alive. Horrible. Persuaded Stannis to burn his own daughter. But, she was also the one who convinced him to go north, which right there might have saved thousands of lives if not outright changed the outcome of humanity vs zombies. Without it, Westeros wouldn't be nearly as well prepared.

But the best thing is that she's been a religious fanatic while at the same time being smart, enough to actually learn from her mistakes. That was clear from her telling John "well idk what the lord wants from you maybe it's his plan for me to bring you back so you can die again here" last season, and now telling Danny "I really don't know what he wants, but helping you and John seems like a sensible strategy." No more being overconfident to know the one true plan of god. Plus telling the facts outright without needless obfuscation (storytelling in general needs more of that).

And then ofc the first episode from last season where we saw her true age. Also makes perfect sense and was super powerful. All around I think one of the greatest characters I've ever seen period. Wouldn't mind her surviving the show, either.

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #34 on: July 25, 2017, 06:14:33 pm »
0

I agree, Melisandre is a great character with real depth. Actress has done a terrific job playing her.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #35 on: July 25, 2017, 11:47:10 pm »
0

Probably the worst battle scene in GoT history. Can't think of one that I cared less about (seriously every character in that battle is a complete meh) and that was as painful to watch (the loghting was rough, two armies with same sigil so i had no idea who was killing who, comple lack of ant strategy apparent to the viewer).

Otherwise the episode was everything I wanted from the first episode.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #36 on: July 28, 2017, 12:21:58 pm »
0

How is Danaerys not able to correctly translate Valyrian into the common tongue?  >:(

I didn't buy the battle at the end at all. The showwriters are somehow trying to convince us the Dany and her allies would spend an entire strategic meeting without ever mentioning Euron? And then he just sneaks up on them somehow with his inferior ships and trashes the fleet? I mean it's just such an obvious "crap, we need to swing the power balance more in Cersei's favor somehow" move, and I knew that this was bound to happen, but I hoped they'd find a way that's more elegant than this.

I'm also a bit worried about Arya. In part because I fear they take her back too far in direction of season 1 Arya, which I don't want to happen, and in part because now she's going to Winterfell and we all know what usually happens when Arya tries to meet up with members of her family.

I also wondered how the Unsullied even get to Casterly Rock... isn't the fastest way sailing around Dorne, in which case they should have been part of Theon & Yara's fleet at the time of the attack? Or are they taking the land route?
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silverspawn

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #37 on: July 28, 2017, 01:01:17 pm »
0

Do they know Euron has teamed up with Cersei? If not it is less obvious.

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #38 on: July 29, 2017, 03:41:56 am »
0

Do they know Euron has teamed up with Cersei? If not it is less obvious.
The idea I think is that they don't, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out that the guy you stole your ships from might not be on your friendly side. And he's still self-proclaimed king of the Iron Islands, so if Dany wants to unite the seven kingdoms, she'd have to deal with him eventually anyway.
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silverspawn

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #39 on: July 31, 2017, 12:13:00 pm »
0

What do you think about this episode's way to make the stakes more even? Better?

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #40 on: July 31, 2017, 12:31:15 pm »
0

They're really fast-forwarding through things. I don't mind it too much.

I still don't buy that Euron was able to raise an even bigger fleet after Yara and Theron took their best ships, but it's a fantasy story. Okay, sure. Still not entirely convinced, but there are worse problems out there.

The Lannisters abandoning Casterly Rock to go after bigger fish, however, seems fitting. It's especially appropriate since Jaime and Cersei know how Tyrion thinks and could bank on Tyrion trying to exploit the traditionalists of the Lannisters. It makes for a rather decent spoiler.

The story speed is a bit jarring. I've been used to six seasons of heavy build-up and the occasional grand battle. This episode featured two significant battles, but they summarized the fights rather than go into the gory details. It lets us get more story, but it's kind of obvious now how they are managing to cram this season into seven episodes.

Having Dany and Jon Snow not ally right away did help. She has her eye on the throne, and Jon is not interested in settling that debt just yet—despite his entire family and homeland getting so royally fucked by the Lannisters. It allows for the resolution of King's Landing and the White Walkers without utterly smashing them.

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #41 on: July 31, 2017, 12:46:34 pm »
0

So first off my thoughts on episode two were pretty much the same as everyone else. I loved the scenes between Sam and Jora, also loved the return of nimeria. As far as the battle scene was concerned it could have been replaced with a scene from pirates of the carribean and I wouldn't have noticed a difference. I wasn't as upset about the whole plan as other people, I think it makes sense not to use dragons and split the army to cover as much ground as peacefully as possible, tyrion is her advisor so it makes sense he would advise the only people you really need to fight are the lanisters and then kings landing will just turn over to her. I feel like if the battle scene was done well and showed the fleet splitting up as then showed eurons fleet executing a plan of some kind then we could feel like man this great plan of dany's was foiled instead of feeling like umm that was dumb.

Transitioning to the 3rd episodes battle and the turning of tides, I loved the suprise that the lanister army was taking high garden, in this episode it was clear cercie/Jamie outsmarted Tyrion and that's the rivalry that enjoyable. I am glad they are making both sides somewhat even, though if they take down a dragon with a gosh darn blalista I'm going to be super upset. Also I thought they missed out on making a mother/son crossbow joke somewhere since that was like Geoffrey's jam when he was shooting prostitutes for fun.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #42 on: July 31, 2017, 12:50:27 pm »
0

I think they just messed the entire Greyjoy part up last season. It happened was too fast and way too late into the show.

Like I already said (and no-one disagreed yet) – isn't this a 14 episode adaption of one book, rather than a 7 episode one? Don't they have 4 hours more than normally, rather than 3 less?

I get the strong sense with GoT (and I like that a lot) that they only show fights with unclear outcomes. First fight season 1 with Tyrion: didn't show, because the starks did their trick where most of their army wasn't there. Season 2 (?) the attack on King's Landing: shown, because it could have gone either way.

Stannis' defeat: didn't show, we knew how it would end. Battle of the Bastards: shown, it was unclear.

The ship fight in episode 2: shown, we didn't know which characters would die there (Euron could have died easily). The two fights in this episode: not shown, because both were one-sided. Similarly the fight with the black fish last season.

So this seems consistent and not because of lack of time, to me.

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #43 on: July 31, 2017, 12:54:55 pm »
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Also I miss still a little upset at how much liberty they are taking with the timing of things. It took bran a month to get to the three eyed raven and a day to get back to the wall, then somehow they can't get a raven to winterfell in time befor Jon leaves to go south warning him his brother is coming and Jon makes it all the way to dragonstone and we haven't seen arya make it to winterfell yet. Like I get that they are just fitting things in narratively and don't care about the ruined gaps but man it's hard to follow along the journey when teleportation is being passed off as "a good strong wind"
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #44 on: July 31, 2017, 01:02:52 pm »
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The show has just decided that characters can get to wherever they are going as fast as the plot demands. So we can polk holes in this all over the place, but it's just the way it is.

I was underwhelmed by the meeting of Jon and Daeny, personally.

I really liked the taking of Highgarden, though. Great exist for Lady Olenna.

The Bran/Sansa scene was written pretty badly. No good reason for Bran to be so evasive.

My favorite scene was Varys and Melisandre. I believe she just prophesied both their deaths.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #45 on: July 31, 2017, 01:13:27 pm »
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The Bran/Sansa scene was written pretty badly. No good reason for Bran to be so evasive.

I'm hoping that this was a conscious decision and not just a poorly done exchange. I'm hoping that the implication here is that Bran has transcended much of the mortal world and has become something else.

It reminds me of the Togashi monks from Legend of the Five Rings. In that RPG, the various clans usually bickered with each other and had a common enemy beyond a wall (sound familiar?). The Togashi, however, could be involved, but they mostly meditated and spoke weird koan. They weren't on the same level as everyone else. That's the feeling I got from Bran, but I am willing to concede that it wasn't as clever as I frame it.

But I hope it is.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #46 on: July 31, 2017, 01:20:46 pm »
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It almost has to be. They just proved with Melisandre that they don't suffer from the "characters talk in weirdly vague and unclear terms for no reason whatsoever" sickness that so many movies have fallen under. There are a number of possible reasons for why Bran wouldn't tell her more, but it's gotta be intentional.

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #47 on: July 31, 2017, 01:56:33 pm »
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The show has just decided that characters can get to wherever they are going as fast as the plot demands. So we can polk holes in this all over the place, but it's just the way it is.

I was underwhelmed by the meeting of Jon and Daeny, personally.
I wasn't underwhelmed at all. I loved the scene where Jon was being escorted up and rhegon flew overhead, combine that with the fact that dany reminded us that she named them after her brothers, I am excited to have the dragons play a part in jons realization that he is part targaryen.

I really liked the taking of Highgarden, though. Great exist for Lady Olenna.
totally agree and I like that her final words were taking ownership over killing Jamie's son right to his face after he granted her mercy, shows her ruthlessness and gives Jamie some knowledge cercie doesn't have which we don't see very often.

The Bran/Sansa scene was written pretty badly. No good reason for Bran to be so evasive.
yea I mean I think there is a reason Sansa and bran were not included in the actors that got a huge pay bump when the show got huge. They just aren't great actors and I'm not excited to have Sansa/bran/arya all running around winterfell with no elder figure there (for both story purposes and acting purposes.

My favorite scene was Varys and Melisandre. I believe she just prophesied both their deaths.
I loved this scene as well. Also this could be a crazy theory but did the tone in that scene seem like varys truly hates mellisandra and mellisandra felt like she was still realling from her previous failures but that she felt superior to varys. My random thought was could mellisandra have been the sorcerer who disfigured varys in the first place. We know she is old enough and in not sure varys has ever said what kind of sorcerer or wat gender.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #48 on: July 31, 2017, 01:58:51 pm »
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I thought the Bran/Sansa seen was super awkward and annoying and also perfect. These are two siblings that frankly had very little interaction in the first three episodes. Bran, I think, had little interest in Sansa growing up in Winterfell and probably vice versa. So all the sentimentality of their meeting was somewhat superficial and quickly dissipated, especially in the context of the horrors that they have both experienced.

I have to think the same will happen if/when Arya shows up. These were kids when they were separated and the after effect of their trauma's become much more apparent when you put them next to each other.

I also liked the juxtaposition of Littlefinger telling Sansa that she needed to see everything, when ta-da, Bran shows up and guess what? He can see everything (too much in Sansa's experience).
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #49 on: July 31, 2017, 02:01:36 pm »
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Also this could be a crazy theory but did the tone in that scene seem like varys truly hates mellisandra and mellisandra felt like she was still realling from her previous failures but that she felt superior to varys. My random thought was could mellisandra have been the sorcerer who disfigured varys in the first place. We know she is old enough and in not sure varys has ever said what kind of sorcerer or wat gender.

Can't be this: Varys actually already got revenge on the sorcerer, he had the sorcerer apprehended and shipped in a box to his lair in King's Landing, where he presumably tortured the sorcerer to death. Happens in early season three:

Varys hates Melisandre because he hates religion and magic, but I think for the first time we are supposed to think that perhaps Varys has become too zealous in his anti-religion bias, whereas Melisandre has become wiser about her faith.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #50 on: July 31, 2017, 02:02:48 pm »
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Also, all the Varys scenes are the best.

Danny giving him the business last episode was perfect. I feel like the show cuts short a lot Varys depth as a character (and he is one of the best and most mysterious in the books especially because he is never given a PoV chapter), but the actor makes up for a lot of it.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #51 on: July 31, 2017, 02:12:22 pm »
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I for one really like how Sansa is being played. Bran I don't care much, but Sansa is great.

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #52 on: July 31, 2017, 02:13:29 pm »
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I really liked the taking of Highgarden, though. Great exist for Lady Olenna.
totally agree and I like that her final words were taking ownership over killing Jamie's son right to his face after he granted her mercy, shows her ruthlessness and gives Jamie some knowledge cercie doesn't have which we don't see very often.
 

I feel like this reveal might turn Jaime. After all, he's been following Cersei's mad plots for revenge. He still had enough doubt to actually help Tyrion get free, but he's been witness to Cersei's hard-on to kill Tyrion. Realizing just how wrong Cersei was may cause him to turn on her.

But maybe not. Maybe he'll get a sword in the gut while protecting her in the very end. Hopefully the story maintains the uncertainty with some surprising twists.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #53 on: July 31, 2017, 02:15:44 pm »
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I for one really like how Sansa is being played. Bran I don't care much, but Sansa is great.
Bran is really just a window into what he sees as the three-eyed raven (which is a really cool narrative tool that they have to use). Anytime we see Bran, but don't see visions is a lost opportunity in my book.


I wonder if there will be any teaching of "green seeing powers." Didn't Arya have dreams about being a wolf that seemed very real? Did Sansa have them as well? Or were those severed once separated from their wolves? That could be a way to potentially explore their characters and relationships much better.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #54 on: July 31, 2017, 02:17:28 pm »
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Two of my favorite characters have gotten very little screen time--Brienne of Tarth and Bronn. Hoping to see more of them.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #55 on: July 31, 2017, 02:47:45 pm »
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Also this could be a crazy theory but did the tone in that scene seem like varys truly hates mellisandra and mellisandra felt like she was still realling from her previous failures but that she felt superior to varys. My random thought was could mellisandra have been the sorcerer who disfigured varys in the first place. We know she is old enough and in not sure varys has ever said what kind of sorcerer or wat gender.

Can't be this: Varys actually already got revenge on the sorcerer, he had the sorcerer apprehended and shipped in a box to his lair in King's Landing, where he presumably tortured the sorcerer to death. Happens in early season three:

Varys hates Melisandre because he hates religion and magic, but I think for the first time we are supposed to think that perhaps Varys has become too zealous in his anti-religion bias, whereas Melisandre has become wiser about her faith.

Ah thank you I couldn't remember if we knew that or not, also correction to something I said earlier it was actually visceron who flew directly over Jon when approaching the castle not rhegal
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #56 on: August 02, 2017, 04:05:33 am »
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What do you think about this episode's way to make the stakes more even? Better?

Well it made somewhat more sense. Except for teleporting Euron's fleet that somehow went to around Dorne to attack Yara's fleet, then back north to King's Landing to present the captives (why is Yara still alive?), and still arrived in time on the opposite side of the continent to destroy the Unsullied fleet.

What is confusing to me is that we have all these people counseling Dany that have been established to be really clever (Tyrion, Varys, even Grey Worm should know stuff about military command), and they get outmaneuvered by Cersei who doesn't have any known tactical geniuses on her side.

Lastly, uh what are the Dothraki doing? Isn't that a force of like one hundred thousand mounted warriors? Why don't you send them to Highgarden immediately once you learned that the fleet supposed to be protecting them has been destroyed?

And I think it's implausible that Dany did not aim for some weak spots first. The Vale is reigned by a weak boy whose chief advisor and a decent part of his army are stuck at Winterfell. And the Eyrie is probably not that impenetrable once you fly up there on a dragon. The Riverlands are in turmoil with no leadership whatsoever. Scare them off a bit and the minor lords will swear fealty, you could even reward one of them by giving the Riverlands to them.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 06:03:16 am by faust »
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #57 on: August 02, 2017, 04:16:53 am »
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Like I already said (and no-one disagreed yet) – isn't this a 14 episode adaption of one book, rather than a 7 episode one? Don't they have 4 hours more than normally, rather than 3 less?
Well one thing is the books got longer over time. Books 6 and 7 will probably be even longer still. So there's more content to put into this. Second, they still used book 4 material during season 6 (the Iron Islands are the main example). It is only with this season that we get completely new material, so it's really more like 1.5 books. And of course finally, the show right now only has a vague similarity to what is going to happen in the books; too many story arcs have been cut or completely changed to expect anything else. A few examples:

- book!Sansa never gets married to Ramsay and consequently is on much better terms with Littlefinger, who sets her up to rule the Vale and the North.
- I'm pretty sure that everything happening at Oldtown is completely made up by the showrunners, the books aim this in a very different direction, and it involves a Sand Snake, Euron and Arya's mentor.
- speaking of Euron, his agenda seems very different in the show.
- Lady Stoneheart, Dorne and Aegon are story arcs either completely missing or not resembling anything from the show.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #58 on: August 02, 2017, 04:19:11 am »
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I wonder if there will be any teaching of "green seeing powers." Didn't Arya have dreams about being a wolf that seemed very real? Did Sansa have them as well? Or were those severed once separated from their wolves? That could be a way to potentially explore their characters and relationships much better.
The show never explored this, and Sansa's wolf died too early for her to form a strong connection. Also there is a difference between green seeing (i.e. seeing things that happen at different times or different places) and warging (i.e. controlling an animal that you have a special bond with).
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #59 on: August 02, 2017, 05:48:14 am »
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Fine points, but it still seems wrong to say that they have less time than normal to adapt. You could say the same about previous seasons with equal right.

I'm not as upset about "teleporting," because... well, if they need a month to get from A to B, then presumably a month has passed between this episode's end and the next episode. Only if it some people can teleport but others take a long time, that's iffy. But I don't know the distances well enough to judge that. Like, does it take longer for John to get to Dragonstone than for Arya to get to Winterfell? If so she should already be there.

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #60 on: August 02, 2017, 06:08:57 am »
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I was mildly irritated that the Iron Bank, located in the free city of Braavos which was founded by runaway slaves, apparently had a lot of money invested in slave trade.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #61 on: August 02, 2017, 06:22:11 am »
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I was mildly irritated that the Iron Bank, located in the free city of Braavos which was founded by runaway slaves, apparently had a lot of money invested in slave trade.

This. I've grown to accept stuff like Littlefinger's teleporting device which he's apparently given a copy of to everyone in the show now, but this ? Ugh.

Pretty good episode though. I liked Olenna's last scene a lot.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #62 on: August 02, 2017, 07:21:47 am »
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Really, you think that's a problem? The largest bank in the world abandoning their principles to make money?

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #63 on: August 02, 2017, 08:28:59 am »
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I'm not as upset about "teleporting," because... well, if they need a month to get from A to B, then presumably a month has passed between this episode's end and the next episode. Only if it some people can teleport but others take a long time, that's iffy. But I don't know the distances well enough to judge that. Like, does it take longer for John to get to Dragonstone than for Arya to get to Winterfell? If so she should already be there.

Yeah, I just chalk it up to fast-forwarding past the boring travel stuff. Presumably, while someone could walk to Winterfell faster than it took Jon to sail to Dragonstone, Arya may have to take some long routes as old river paths may have been washed out. Or she took a more obscure route to avoid another Lannister patrol. Or decided to go murder someone.

And it probably took a long time for the Unsullied to load up on the ships, giving Euron time to swoop in.

I think what makes things seem so jarring in this regard is that there's no indication of the passage of time. They don't show a ship arriving with a caption of "Two months later." We have very little frames of reference except for the scenes they show us, which can result in something taking months looking like it took a day when it's shown concurrently with a faster scene. But perhaps it's best that they don't give time periods because then any inconsistencies would be documented, and someone would say, "See, it says that it took him 3 weeks to get here, but such-and-such managed to do it in 5 days. What gives?"

Really, you think that's a problem? The largest bank in the world abandoning their principles to make money?

A lot of characters are pretty grey or downright evil. There are only a few genuinely decent characters on the show, and I imagine none of them works for the Iron Bank.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #64 on: August 02, 2017, 08:37:03 am »
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What do you think about this episode's way to make the stakes more even? Better?

Well it made somewhat more sense. Except for teleporting Euron's fleet that somehow went to around Dorne to attack Yara's fleet, then back north to King's Landing to present the captives (why is Yara still alive?), and still arrived in time on the opposite side of the continent to destroy the Unsullied fleet.


It seems like we should assume that after intercepting Yara and Theon, Euron turned back to King's landing with the captives while the bulk of his fleet sailed to Casterly Rock after the Unsullied.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #65 on: August 02, 2017, 09:01:48 am »
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I think what makes things seem so jarring in this regard is that there's no indication of the passage of time. They don't show a ship arriving with a caption of "Two months later." We have very little frames of reference except for the scenes they show us, which can result in something taking months looking like it took a day when it's shown concurrently with a faster scene. But perhaps it's best that they don't give time periods because then any inconsistencies would be documented, and someone would say, "See, it says that it took him 3 weeks to get here, but such-and-such managed to do it in 5 days. What gives?"

I think the problem is that it changed. In previous seasons, travel did take several episodes, so there was no need to indicate passage of time. They can't keep doing it that way, because then they can't wrap up the story – so it's not something you could accuse the show of – but now this problem comes up that was previously not there.

There are lots of ways to tell the audience that time passed. I actually think it would be better if they did something. Then we'd know which parts are actually inconsistent and which parts just indicate a time skip, and no-one would criticize the latter.

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #66 on: August 02, 2017, 09:29:33 am »
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Really, you think that's a problem? The largest bank in the world abandoning their principles to make money?
I think the Braavosi have enough comtempt for slavery that they would try to sabotage the Iron Bank for this, so the bank wzould be forced to relocate their headquarters. That they haven't seems to indicate that the people of Braavos are generally okay with their practices.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #67 on: August 02, 2017, 10:30:23 am »
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Only if the Braavosi actually know what's going on. A lot of people in our society support banks that do incredibly unethical things, and we actually do have the information in theory.

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #68 on: August 02, 2017, 10:55:03 am »
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Only if the Braavosi actually know what's going on. A lot of people in our society support banks that do incredibly unethical things, and we actually do have the information in theory.
sure they could do it secretly, but then they would hardly admit to it unprompted. I mean there are certainly explanations for the Iron Bank to do that, but we have seen nothing indicating them and to me it feels as though the writers just don't care all that much about what the background of these people is.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #69 on: August 03, 2017, 05:46:47 am »
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It's not about being unethical... it's about going against everything their society is built open. Casually, since he doesn't mind admitting it to Cersei.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #70 on: August 03, 2017, 06:04:23 am »
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Yeah, but that's what naturally happens if there is a profit motive and a strong filter effect. Enormous wealth is regularly defended under the label of Christianity, even though Jesus said "Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." That's one of the few areas where the bible is pretty consistent afaik. I don't have a hard time believing that the iron bank has done a 180° on their principles.

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #71 on: August 03, 2017, 06:12:52 am »
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Well, it's certainly hard to defend accumulating wealth as a Catholic, but as a Protestant you're fine.

WHat I'm saying is that the Iron Bank wouldn't have qualms about slavery because they'd think they'd get in trouble for it, but because they'd been conditionned to see it as absolute evil, since it's the very thing their society was built against. And certainly if they did profit off it nevertheless, they wouldn't be open about it.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #72 on: August 03, 2017, 08:53:05 am »
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It may be that the common man doesn't know about it, but the ruling elite does. When you're dealing with someone with as much power as Cersei, you have to expect that your dirty laundry will be known.

So maybe they do keep their slavery ties hidden, but when Cersei points them out to you, it'd be silly to deny them.
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silverspawn

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #73 on: August 07, 2017, 06:56:15 am »
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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

silverspawn

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #74 on: August 07, 2017, 08:07:08 am »
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I'm glad I was alive to see this.

Aside from the obvious, I think I like every narrative turn in this story. I like how Arya didn't do anything stupid in the last minute, and that they had a proper reunion. I like how it only took this episode for Sansa to get a sense of what Arya has done (at least my sense was that she believes it now). I like how Arya doesn't try to hide it.

Also their second hug was great. For me it signaled Arya realizing "wait, Sansa isn't an idiot anymore!"

And I really like how this ballistic thing didn't kill the dragon. If it had, I think I would have criticized it as a plot convenience. Like, yeah this thing could in theory kill a dragon, but it's like shooting a normal sized arrow at a pig that also wears armor. If you are a really good hunter, and you have a lot of time to carefully aim, I'm sure you can kill it with one shot, but none of those things was the case here, and it seems far more likely to end up like in this episode.

The one thing that I kept wondering though (and not for the first time), is-- did real knights really use to practice with real swords? As great as that Arya vs Brienne scene was, it did seem unnecessarily dangerous.

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #75 on: August 07, 2017, 08:09:06 am »
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Okay, so this one did surprise me. I figured that when you show us Chekov's Ballista, then a dragon's gonna get killed. I was expecting a sudden reversal where the dragon is killed mid-air and Dany is captured.

But I'm not disappointed. The fact that the show (well, the book really) is not afraid to fuck with us means that it can continue to fuck with us when we expect to be fucked with. So yeah, well played.

I like to think that Dany is showing the internal struggle of how power is affecting her. She keeps insisting on Jon to bend the knee. She accuses him of letting pride get in the way when that's exactly what's happening to her. And at one point, she was furious enough to seriously consider burning down the Red Keep. She did manage to stay her hand and choose a military target with no civilian casualties. And well, I'm sure the direction given to the actors was, "Remember, you've never ever seen a dragon, so shit your pants." They did pretty well.

It's interesting that they show Jaime sinking in his armor but not him actually dying. My wife says there's no way they can save him. And the story indicates that he will be saved. After all, if the intent was to kill Jaime off, then the dragonfire would have been a satisfying final scene. But no, he was saved, and he likely will survive into next episode.

How? Right now, the only method I can think of is that the dragon is commanded to pull Jaime out of the water—perhaps at the behest of Tyrion, who still has affection for Jaime.  I would find it highly unlikely that anybody could dive in and pull him up.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #76 on: August 07, 2017, 08:14:17 am »
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The one thing that I kept wondering though (and not for the first time), is-- did real knights really use to practice with real swords? As great as that Arya vs Brienne scene was, it did seem unnecessarily dangerous.

I was cringing during that scene because I was afraid GoT was going to happen.

Brienne's sword looked rounded to me, though I admit I'm no weapons expert. So I figured she was using a practice sword. Still, the way she swung that could still be lethal. I figured that she let Arya use real weapons because she figured Arya would lose.

I wondered if the darkness would consume Arya, especially when she was kicked so savagely in the chest, and that she would blindly strike to kill. I think the story would have taken a darker turn if she had lashed out and killed Brienne through instinct. That would be just like GoT for a happy reunion to be marred by a brutal murder where Arya has to escape before she can even get a chance to see Jon again.

Speaking of family reunions, what Jon said to Theron was apt enough. That would be difficult seeing the man who betrayed your entire family.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #77 on: August 07, 2017, 08:38:53 am »
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This episode was already very good before the battle: The Winterfell Starks stuff was very strong, the Jon/Dany scenes actually felt like two characters speaking to each other (as opposed to the naked plot machinations earlier), and then GoT got to do what it does best, which is terrifying and awesome battle sequences.

Best episode of GoT in years.
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silverspawn

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #78 on: August 07, 2017, 08:49:21 am »
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Brienne's sword looked rounded to me, though I admit I'm no weapons expert.
Oh, okay, that might totally be true, and would be good. I didn't pay attention to it.

She did manage to stay her hand and choose a military target with no civilian casualties.

Yeah, that is a really good compromise. It's not really worse than normal fighting, at least I don't see why it would be. If anything it'll kill fewer people total because the fight will be one-sided. And it's much less harmful for Danny if people hear "she used dragons to kill the lannister army" vs if they actually see their homes burnt down. I don't think she should use dragons against the city and I don't think she will. Now that things look much better for her again, she's less likely to do extreme things.

Another thing I thought about – it would have been smarter if Danny, after seeing the weapon initially (it did miss once before it hit), had turned around and fled. The battle was won at that point, the main purpose of the dragon was arguably to scare the shit out of everyone and totally annihilate the defenders advantage, and had already worked. But of course she's super mad and furious at that point and took the risk.

It never occurred to me that the practice scene might turn out ugly, though on hindsight I agree there was a chance. I think I'm glad it went well. It'd have been a real shock but also so sad and unfair to Brienne. And the way it went was great. I love howit was a somewhat even fight once Brienne realized what she was dealing with.

This episode was already very good before the battle: The Winterfell Starks stuff was very strong, the Jon/Dany scenes actually felt like two characters speaking to each other (as opposed to the naked plot machinations earlier), and then GoT got to do what it does best, which is terrifying and awesome battle sequences.

Best episode of GoT in years.

I think it's my favorite overall. There wasn't any scene so far which got me as riled up as the final stretch of this episode.

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #79 on: August 07, 2017, 09:01:04 am »
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Brienne's sword clearly seemed blunted to me, though I was surprised at the violence with which she was wielding it. Never crossed my mind that Arya might inadvertently cross the line, I basically assume she has super-human control.

Dany turning back would have been the best move strategically, assuming no survivors. It does look better to stay and win - thereby confirming dragons are the real deal - but less safe. Suits Dany pretty well though.

I do think Jaime survives this, unfortunately. Nothing against him, and I can see how there is a lot of unresolved business that warrants having him around for story/character reasons, but it was shaping up to be a memorable death.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 09:02:19 am by Teproc »
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Kuildeous

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #80 on: August 07, 2017, 10:55:25 am »
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It never occurred to me that the practice scene might turn out ugly, though on hindsight I agree there was a chance. I think I'm glad it went well. It'd have been a real shock but also so sad and unfair to Brienne. And the way it went was great. I love howit was a somewhat even fight once Brienne realized what she was dealing with.


As I think more on it, I think it would have been a better story if Arya's murderous side did emerge, and she killed (or at least maimed) Brienne. The scene didn't contribute too much except for showing us what a badass Arya is now, and we already knew that. But Littlefinger witnessed this and had a reaction, so I suppose the scene does advance the story; I just can't see the result of it yet, and that's fine too.

If I had written that part of the story, I would have thrown in that tragedy. But then, they're looking to wrap up the series next season. Having Arya's dark side come out would have introduced a new complication, and I don't know that they would want to go that route so close to the conclusion.

I did like the realization of who Arya was. Sansa laughed off Arya's list. She was probably thinking, "Yeah, I got a list of people I'd like to kill too." But then Bran's spooky ubiquitous vision confirmed that the ever-shortening list is legitimate, and Sansa was taken aback by this revelation.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #81 on: August 07, 2017, 11:07:54 am »
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I don't quite get this.  Arya doesn't kill indiscriminately; she kills with purpose.  She also seems in complete control of her emotions.  She doesn't have any reason to kill Brienne. 

I think the point of the scene is to show the other characters (like Sansa) how much of a badass Arya is.  Bran's comment tells Sansa that Arya's list is a real thing; that display shows her that Arya has the ability to make good on it.

Also, Arya besting Brienne who bested the Hound confirms to Arya that she could kill the Hound if she had still wanted to.
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silverspawn

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #82 on: August 07, 2017, 11:18:41 am »
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I think the point of the scene is to show the other characters (like Sansa) how much of a badass Arya is.  Bran's comment tells Sansa that Arya's list is a real thing; that display shows her that Arya has the ability to make good on it.
yes, exactly.

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #83 on: August 07, 2017, 12:14:21 pm »
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Spoiler: everyone dies.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #84 on: August 07, 2017, 01:06:52 pm »
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Since they brought the Hound back to life and Arya specifically tested herself against the only person to have bested the Hound, I'm guessing that Arya's going to encounter the Hound and strike him off her list.

The question becomes if he's contrite enough to warrant Arya sparing his life.

Where is the Hound going to anyway? I forgot if they mentioned a destination or if he's just wandering.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #85 on: August 07, 2017, 01:18:49 pm »
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The Hound is with Beric Dondarrian and Thoros of Myr.  They evidently recognize the threat of the White Walkers.  I think they're heading north, though I'm not sure it was stated.

I don't think Arya wishes to kill the Hound any more.  She had already removed his name from the list, or at least questioned it being there.
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Robz888

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #86 on: August 07, 2017, 06:05:23 pm »
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Well that was the best episode of the season. The Winterfell stuff is decently interesting, it's nice to see Littlefinger possibly ever so concerned about his position.

But of course the real home run was the battle. It was so great, except I think they should have just gone ahead and killed someone we cared about. But anyway, that dragon, wow. Was nice to see Daeny and Tyrion finally even the odds.

It makes no sense for Jamie to still be alive, but he is definitely still alive.

My prediction: Papa Tarly refuses to bend the knee and Daeny feeds him to her dragon.
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Elestan

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #87 on: August 07, 2017, 08:41:52 pm »
+1

Another thing I thought about – it would have been smarter if Dani, after seeing the weapon initially (it did miss once before it hit), had turned around and fled. The battle was won at that point, the main purpose of the dragon was arguably to scare the shit out of everyone and totally annihilate the defenders advantage, and had already worked. But of course she's super mad and furious at that point and took the risk.

I enjoyed the episode, but the horrible tactics made it rather painful:

The Lannister troops were all lined up to meet the Dothraki charge; if Dani had flown in from the side, she could have torched their entire line in the first pass, instead of just punching a small hole in it.  Or, if she'd simply made a surprise attack run before the horde became audible, she could have thrown the camp into enough disarray that the Dothraki charge would have caught them before they could form the shield wall.

Torching the wagons also made no sense.  With that many barbarians plus the dragon, this was not a hit-and-run raid; she intended to own the field of battle after the fight, which means she just incinerated her own spoils.  She should have taken the supplies, and brought them, along with any Highgarden survivors, to Casterly Rock, to break the siege and resupply her Unsullied.

Plus, as others have noted, there was no need for her to make an attack run on the scorpion; her own troops could have (should have, would have) seen the threat to her and overrun it themselves.

These tactical mistakes particularly irked me because she's getting advice from Tyrion, who has been presented as having a gift for clever plans. 

Of course, Jamie should be executed for incompetence for not having outriders atop that rise so that an entire barbarian army didn't sneak up on his troops while they were strung out and vulnerable.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 08:46:00 pm by Elestan »
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Robz888

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #88 on: August 07, 2017, 08:59:40 pm »
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^^All of that.
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Kuildeous

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #89 on: August 07, 2017, 11:10:31 pm »
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The photo of the Game of Thrones game is funny enough, but the linked comments are just icing:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/132851767828/permalink/10155568530197829/?comment_id=10155568551077829
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silverspawn

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #90 on: August 08, 2017, 04:40:14 am »
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Good points. I'm less convinced that all of these are narrative mistakes, however – the point was that she didn't listen to Tyrion this time, so presumably no-one briefed her on the finer strategic details. Although destroying the wagons was pretty stupid. I'm glad I didn't think about it during the episode, so it didn't decrease my enjoyment :D

And she was much more efficient with using the splash damage from the dragon than ever before. When they attacked the ships, they also didn't breath fire for that long without some breaks. Maybe they can't.

Finally, going alone before the army is actually not something I would do. The whole point Tyrion made was "one arrow and you can be dead." This way way the smaller risk.

Oh, and as for Jamie not being warned, well if they just approached in full gallop, wouldn't the warning arrive at the same time that they hear it anyway?

Elestan

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #91 on: August 08, 2017, 08:42:39 am »
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Finally, going alone before the army is actually not something I would do. The whole point Tyrion made was "one arrow and you can be dead." This way way the smaller risk.

Clearly she wasn't worried about that, though.  My point was that a gliding dragon is pretty silent, so she could have probably maximized its effectiveness by doing one properly timed
surprise attack from a different direction than her very loud charging barbarians.  And one such attack might have been all she needed to do.

Quote
Oh, and as for Jamie not being warned, well if they just approached in full gallop, wouldn't the warning arrive at the same time that they hear it anyway?

There are these things called horns...plus that's why you put scouts in high places, so they see the enemy coming in advance.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 08:51:14 am by Elestan »
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silverspawn

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #92 on: August 08, 2017, 09:34:03 am »
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There are these things called horns...plus that's why you put scouts in high places, so they see the enemy coming in advance.
I see your military skills exceed mine :D you're right.

Let's see if there is a Jaime left to be fired next episode.

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #93 on: August 14, 2017, 06:31:22 pm »
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The end of that episode was like the beginning of an epic D&D adventure. 
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jonts26

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #94 on: August 14, 2017, 07:11:47 pm »
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So I've been enjoying the season quite a bit but it's just felt so rushed. The plotting has been sloppy. But the biggest crime is they are just glossing over what should be some serious character interactions. With so many intersecting plots they really need to take a step back and just let these scenes breathe.
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Robz888

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #95 on: August 14, 2017, 07:50:52 pm »
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Yeah, the plan to capture a wight and show it to Cersei is just too ridiculous. King's Landing is more vulnerable than ever: the Dothraki and dragons should really just take it. Daeny has no reason to stall for time, even if the Night King is an immediate threat. It would take far less time to BBQ Cersei and take the throne, and then they don't need to worry about going all the way north, finding a wight, bringing it back, and asking for a temporary truce.

And I second the complaint that we are blowing through waaay too many interesting character combos. What would Gendry have to say about Daenerys? What about Varys and Ser Jorah, his one-time spy? I'd gladly take a couple more scenes between Ser Davos and Tyrion (or Ser Davos and anyone, really). And none of the characters who used to call Dragonstone a home really got much space to reckon with the things that had happened to them there (Melisandre, Ser Davos, Gendry).

The stuff happening in Winterfell is potentially quite interesting, but it's not getting fleshed out very well, which is because we haven't spent enough time seeing the characters interact with each other.

Also, it still feels weird to have no one of any importance in King's Landing, other than Cersei and Jamie and I guess Qyburn. This would be defensible if the other storylines were getting more time in return, but somehow I feel like Sam mostly came out ahead, and Sam's story is just not that interesting, even though I quite like Sam. (Gilly casually discovering that Jon Snow isn't actually a bastard--and being promptly ignored--was actually quite amazing.)

The wight-hunting team is also pretty ridiculous, such a random assortment of characters. I feel pretty under-invested in Thoros and Beric, so I assume they aren't going to make it. Ser Jorah might be in danger, too... there can't be very much left in his arc.

Finally, the teleportation problem is insanely glaring, although I respect the show for being so committed to ignoring it.

Anyway, that's a lot of complaints, but I'm quite liking the season!
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Kuildeous

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #96 on: August 15, 2017, 08:15:38 am »
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Finally, the teleportation problem is insanely glaring, although I respect the show for being so committed to ignoring it.
 

Not the least that Jaime fell into a lake that apparently drops for several meters just off the shoreline who is then lifted up by Bronn's amazing strength in an area far away from the fighting. I simply rolled my eyes at that scene and promptly set it on ignore mode. I'm not letting that ruin my enjoyment of the show.

I figured that the only one who could pull Jaime's armored and gold-handed form would have been the dragon and only because Tyrion (through another feat of teleportation perhaps) convinced Dany to save his brother.

So that was Sam's father that was executed, right? So no further resolution to Sam stealing the sword? Or I guess that means that by stealing it, he spared it from getting incinerated.
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The_Wine_Merchant

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #97 on: August 15, 2017, 11:23:37 pm »
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That episode was a roller coaster and not just because of the storyline. I was very back and forth on the quality of the episode where some moments were "this is the worst Game of Thrones has been in a long time" and then minutes later "this is fucking awesome!"

I do feel that much of this season is relying on its previous seasons in a variety of areas. For example. Game of Thrones laboriously showed how slowly people move in the Seven Kingdoms over many, many episodes across nearly all of the seasons up to this. That they are ignoring it now, is easier to dismiss as I know in the back of my mind that there many issues and troubles and dangers that accompany traveling that aren't being shown because they have already been explored.

But I do think this season is missing some of the "common man" elements. We aren't seeing the effect that the wars and turmoil is having on them. Did a horde of Dothraki really cross most of Westeros without leaving a wake of devastation (aside from the crushed Lannister army)? And if they didn't, how did Danny accomplish that? What are the dragons (along with the rest of the people) eating. Dragonstone doesn't exactly have a burgeoning economy. Who is supplying them with food? Where did Davos get fermented crab?

I feel like Game of Thrones, in the past, touches on these moments, but hasn't had the time to prioritize them. And now all we are seeing are the nobles being noble around other nobles. It is fun, but it loses something as a result.

But mostly what Robz said:

Anyway, that's a lot of complaints, but I'm quite liking the season!
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mcmcsalot

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #98 on: August 16, 2017, 11:09:53 am »
0

Totally agree with twm about how the show has lost some of its "groundedness" in showing us the little things. It interesting because I am in the middle of a podcast that is rewatching lost and they are on episodes 5 and 6 of the final season. It's quite interesting to see how much that show also picked up the pace a huge amount in the final two seasons where the thought of a "filler" episode of which lost had a few seems crazy. GoT is also suffering from the problem of bringing to a close this epic sprawling fantasy realm it created. Now that everything has to have a purpose the little things that made it great are falling away but in place of that we are getting tons of juicy plot advancement which we have been craving.

None of this has been a direct problem for me but Sam leaving old town really hurts, it's he literally went there and we got comic relief, massive plot point which was redundant dragon glass, comic relief, jora es machina, blah blah, massive plot point which was also pretty widely accepted Jon targaryen, I'm leaving! His whole being there feels crammed down my throat, but without them being okay doing that I would never get gendri/jora/brotherhood/wildings all dnd partying it up in the north. Assembling that kind of team and important characters would have taken a whole season in the past so there are lots of pros and cons to "wrapping" a sprawling universe to match one plot.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #99 on: August 16, 2017, 11:22:56 am »
+1

Now, GRRM, I am trusting you won't do this, but I don't mind you taking your time to finish the books. No need to rush through story lines to finish.

Just don't go all-out wheel of time on us and not ever get around to finishing.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #100 on: August 16, 2017, 11:24:05 am »
0

Or prebook Sanderson.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #101 on: August 16, 2017, 11:29:20 am »
0

Or prebook Sanderson.

I would say this is an acceptable option, but Sanderson has his own book problem. He has the stormlight archives to finish. And that will take a while. I would trust him to finish for GRRM though. He likes having multiple projects at a time
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #102 on: August 17, 2017, 10:05:57 am »
+1

My episode 6 gripes:

* So Jon and Jorah sail together from Dragonstone to Eastwatch for a month before heading out into the frozen north, and only after they're well away from Eastwatch and its armoury does Jon get around to deciding he needs to offer to give his only sword away?
* Tyrion is being made irrationally softhearted for the purpose of injecting unnecessary dramatic tension.
* Arya is being made irrationally psychotic for the purpose of injecting unnecessary dramatic tension.
* Sansa is being made unbelievably stupid for the purpose of injecting unnecessary dramatic tension.  Caveat:  If she and Arya are playing up their enmity deliberately to sucker Littlefinger, then all will be forgiven.
* Gendry was apparently training to run a frozen marathon while working his forge.
* Jon has been made into a complete tactical idiot, needlessly delaying the group's escape, by charging the enemy for the purpose of injecting unnecessary dramatic tension.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 10:07:50 pm by Elestan »
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #103 on: August 17, 2017, 02:38:06 pm »
0

My episode 6 gripes:

Warning:  Episode 6 spoilers!

* So Jon and Jorah sail together from Dragonstone to Eastwatch for a month before heading out into the frozen north, and only after they're well away from Eastwatch and its armoury does * Jon get around to deciding he needs to offer to give his only sword away?
* Tyrion is being made irrationally softhearted for the purpose of injecting unnecessary dramatic tension.
* Arya is being made irrationally psychotic for the purpose of injecting unnecessary dramatic tension.
* Sansa is being made unbelievable stupid for the purpose of injecting unnecessary dramatic tension.  Caveat:  If she and Arya are playing up their enmity deliberately to sucker Littlefinger, then all will be forgiven.
* Gendry was apparently training to run a marathon while working his forge.
* Jon is apparently a complete tactical idiot, who needlessly charges the enemy, delaying the group's escape for the purpose of injecting unnecessary dramatic tension.

Why u do dis...now I wanna click...
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #104 on: August 20, 2017, 11:59:13 am »
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ugh that was bad (referring to e5). I'm not sure if I'm harsher on the show now because I've had Calamitas lay out all the plot holes I've missed to me, but this was really... ughhh. There's so much wrong with that episode. Has to be the worst of the show so far. I don't even want to list it all.

The worst part is the whole plan to show Cersei an undead guy. Like... wtf.

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #105 on: August 20, 2017, 11:18:30 pm »
0

Also,

couldn't they have just waited for the guy that died by the bear to turn?  Didn't the ones in the first and second season rise without the White Walkers specifically reanimating them?  Though it sort of seems like that's the norm now.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #106 on: August 20, 2017, 11:30:14 pm »
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Holyshitidontevencareundeaddragonholyshit
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #107 on: August 20, 2017, 11:35:21 pm »
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Called it! I totally called it. I so called it that the episode was robbed of some dramatic tension for me, since I could see the dragon-death-reanimation thing coming a mile away.

I'm surprised only Thoros died. I was expecting to say goodbye to some actual main characters, not just a bunch of extras.

Still on the fence about whether any of the Winterfell stuff is working at all.

Jon bend the knee? Daeny should bend the knee! Jon Targaryen is the rightful king of Westeros. Sad that only Bran and Gilly have enough information to piece that together.

Pretty good episode, I like a lot of the conversations, although Hardhome was still better, I think, in terms of undead horror awesomeness.

Speaking of which, I have to say this, this season and the last has totally butchered the Night King's makeup, for some reason. He looked coolest in the Hardhome episode, genuinely menacing. Now he just looks kind of stupid. It's a different actor now, but production really screwed it up. Oh well.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #108 on: August 20, 2017, 11:37:00 pm »
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #109 on: August 21, 2017, 12:56:53 am »
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So many bad things but I don't even care.

Cersi totally gonna get frozen by an ice dragon.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #110 on: August 21, 2017, 07:11:01 am »
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Messy as always, but spectacular enough that it doesn't sour it. Wyrms have been anticipated for so long in the ASoIaF, glad to see it coming to bear (hah).
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #111 on: August 21, 2017, 10:49:06 am »
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How long are we supposed to believe that they were stuck on that lake?
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #112 on: August 21, 2017, 10:55:23 am »
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How long are we supposed to believe that they were stuck on that lake?

Looked like at least a full night passes.  Apparently it must be one raven flight + one dragon flight.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #113 on: August 21, 2017, 10:56:56 am »
0

How long are we supposed to believe that they were stuck on that lake?

That was my big complaint. I'm trying to dismiss it as a fantasy world where the Lord of Light kept them from freezing to death. Presumably they have enough food with them to survive. Water is not a problem. It's really the time spent in freezing temperatures that should have done them in.

At the very least, they could have had Tyrion warn Dany that they've already been out there for 3 days, so she is probably too late. That would have given us some sort of time frame.

Mostly it's a lot of hand-waving, and we would just drive ourselves nuts if we try to apply too much logic to it. That's not a great method unfortunately.

I'm going to keep watching it to the end because of the sunk-cost fallacy, but it won't be a complete waste of time. It still has some great moments, but it's no longer great overall.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #114 on: August 21, 2017, 06:03:57 pm »
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Why didn't flaming sword keep them warm?
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #115 on: August 21, 2017, 06:23:32 pm »
0

Why didn't flaming sword keep them warm?

Mostly I think the problem is that they didn't explain away the amount of time they spent on that rock with a single scene of them huddling around the sword periodically. I know that they don't have to show us everything, and that's the reason why I will overlook this "flaw". I will pretend that it was their connection to the Lord of Light that protected them.

But it'd be nice if they could explain things so that we don't have to make these leaps. After all, we've seen the sword mostly used in combat. I recall one use to cauterize a wound. Maybe there were other scenes in earlier seasons, but I don't recall those. So can the sword be used as a personal heater? Seems reasonable, but we don't know the extent of how the sword can be used.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #116 on: August 21, 2017, 07:10:16 pm »
0

"the problem is that they didn't explain"

That's where you're wrong, I think. As much as I love them, the books have their logic problems, and the show was always going to be much worse, especially with the accelerated narrative now. Overexplaining is the worst thing they can do, it would make the gaps in logic unforgivable.

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #117 on: August 21, 2017, 07:40:27 pm »
+1

My own view on this:

It seems to me that most TV writers are far more creative than they are analytical.  In keeping with this, they place a high priority on the beauty and emotion of a scene, and are not particularly bothered by inconsistencies in timelines or continuity.  Presumably, much of the audience also falls into this mindset.  But for those of us of a more analytical bent, those problems fly at our brains like a murder of three-eyed ravens, shattering the verisimilitude of the show in a cacophony of contradictions.  Sadly, in most genres other than hard SF, we are either in a small minority, or the writers don't understand how we think, or they just don't care.  So we get to keep sighing at all the mediocre drek that Hollywood keeps vomiting out, doing our best to turn off the analytical sides of our brains so that we can just enjoy the pretty special effects.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #118 on: August 21, 2017, 08:43:39 pm »
0

"the problem is that they didn't explain"

That's where you're wrong, I think. As much as I love them, the books have their logic problems, and the show was always going to be much worse, especially with the accelerated narrative now. Overexplaining is the worst thing they can do, it would make the gaps in logic unforgivable.



Sure, overexplaining is a problem, which is why the creators have to balance between filling in holes and not treating us like children.

But I think Elestan is correct that creativity usually wins out over logic.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #119 on: August 21, 2017, 08:47:08 pm »
0

My own view on this:

It seems to me that most TV writers are far more creative than they are analytical.  In keeping with this, they place a high priority on the beauty and emotion of a scene, and are not particularly bothered by inconsistencies in timelines or continuity. 

I personally think this is for the better.  I think the best shows are the ones that circumvent this through being surreal, like Twin Peaks, The Leftovers.

Quote
Presumably, much of the audience also falls into this mindset.  But for those of us of a more analytical bent, those problems fly at our brains like a murder of three-eyed ravens, shattering the verisimilitude of the show in a cacophony of contradictions.  Sadly, in most genres other than hard SF, we are either in a small minority, or the writers don't understand how we think, or they just don't care.  So we get to keep sighing at all the mediocre drek that Hollywood keeps vomiting out, doing our best to turn off the analytical sides of our brains so that we can just enjoy the pretty special effects.

In some cases I think it's just a tradeoff.  Making the narrative and plot tighter may not necessarily translate to a better-told story.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #120 on: August 22, 2017, 07:34:58 am »
0

Agree with most of what's been said. The show's definitely getting worse now, previously it was creative and it made sense, now it's still creative but makes less sense. It was definitely far better than the previous episode.

The ending was indeed obvious.

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #121 on: August 22, 2017, 09:32:33 am »
+2

Agree with most of what's been said. The show's definitely getting worse now, previously it was creative and it made sense, now it's still creative but makes less sense. It was definitely far better than the previous episode.

I think the problems started when they outran GRRM's material.  He took the time and effort to make sure that the timelines of the characters mostly lined up, so the parts of the show drawn from the books benefited from that rigor.  I've done a bit of storyline crafting while working on an RPG, and have a lot of respect for the effort and discipline it takes to do this well; you think of a cool scene or event, get it all pictured in your head, and then sit down to work out the details only to realize that there's a key character who just can't be where you want them.  Do you abandon your cool scene, or give in to the temptation to let reality bend "just this once"?

But once you bend the rules the first time, you're on the slippery slope to do it more and more often, until you end up with things like 500kph ravens.  So, while I understand the temptation, I will always reserve my greatest praise for the writers who can craft a great story with cool scenes without taking such shortcuts.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #122 on: August 22, 2017, 11:21:15 am »
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Did anyone notice longclaws eyes open when Jon touches it after coming out of the water...because it did and that Wolfy is aliiiiiiive
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #123 on: August 22, 2017, 11:31:20 am »
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Did anyone notice longclaws eyes open when Jon touches it after coming out of the water...because it did and that Wolfy is aliiiiiiive

Reddit discussed this; it seems to be a visual effect of the reflection off of his glove.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #124 on: August 23, 2017, 07:51:54 am »
+1

worst episode ever...

All the conversations between the squad seemed appropriate if they where in some kind of fortified position they could hold. Being totally surrounded on all sides should make them way more desperate.
"We must defend and extract the captured zombie" , wtf yeah sure, stfu, you are doomed.
Genry can escape and a raven gets to Dragonstone in time. sure....
"Fall back!" to where? you are surrounded. *Continues dragging zombie in some direction.
What you see and what the characters were saying just didn't match up at all.

Only reason I could think up about why the white walkers were just sitting there waiting is if they expected the dragon to come.

Still this doesn't make up for all the bad shit. Also winterfell was shit. Overuse of the old horrible writing tactic to let characters exit the stage before a conflict conversation can be resolved. Arya and Sansa have been in Winterfell some time now, are we supposed to believe they still haven't just sat down and shared some stories.

So I watched a bad action movie and a bad soap opera. Feels like they got some superhero movie writers on board or something.

O I forgot about Benjin. hahah, here he comes savior of the day. Take my horse. Now I'll die. Byeeee. Plotline resolved..
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #125 on: August 23, 2017, 09:04:15 am »
+1

I agree with what most people have been saying.

The stuff past the wall didn't actually bother me that much. We have had 4 battle scenes in 6 episodes and this was at least better than the pirates of the carribean scene so third isn't bad. I was fine with the wights waiting because I think he knew the dragons were coming, we have scene the night king call hordes of wights to fall off a cliff only to raise them again and screw with jons head. The worst part of thatnwhole scene was benjin coming out of nowhere rhegon totally should have circled back, and laid down a line of fire while Jon hopped on his back.

Now for my real issue, winterfell. All that needs to be done is describe to someone the three stark siblings as children, briefly explain what tragedy occurred to their parents and brothers, then explain the journey each has gone on. Finally tell the person these siblings have been reunited all returning to their home where they grew up. That person will respond oh man that must be amazing, I would hate to be anyone that isn't 100% on the starks good side because those kids must be on top of everything. Remember Bran sees everything, Sansa has the entire north supporting her, and arya is the deadliest fighter in westeros. Essentially they all suffered because of the family and safety they lost but they haven't forma second discussed that. Like arya and Sansa should totally be arguing over who murdered their enemies in a cooler way. Arya's all "remember the man who killed rob and mother, I fed his children to him in a pie then slit his throat", Sansa's all "pity you fed his children to him, I fed the man who killed rickon to his children...his children were starving savage dogs." Meanwhile Bran's all "you girls are kinda crazy...oh and the guy who basically killed father is downstairs. Let's invite him for a meeting in the ravens room and I'll warg into all of them and peck his eyes out!" End of scene and all threats to the glorious all powerful stark house.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #126 on: August 25, 2017, 12:16:43 pm »
0

Despite the criticisms of this latest episode, I did really miss Tormund.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #127 on: August 25, 2017, 02:52:52 pm »
+4

I wish there was more dialogue and it was slower.  I blame not having source material.  The dialogue in the past, even the stuff not directly based on source material, was incredible.  We have no scenes like Jaime and Brienne in the baths. 

I love this season in terms of seeing "what happens", but it does feel like Cliff's Notes.  Sometimes the journey is just as important as the destination.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #128 on: August 25, 2017, 03:10:43 pm »
0

By the way, what are your thoughts on the Highgarden/Tyrell thing from a few episodes back?
Imo it's by far the worst plothole so far in the series.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #129 on: August 25, 2017, 03:16:22 pm »
0

I realized the way they should have worked the raven problem:

End of episode 5: 

The lucky seven step out from the gates of Eastwatch into the frozen North beyond the wall, and vanish into the driving blizzard.

CUT TO: Winterfell Godswood

Bran is sitting beneath the Weirwood tree, eyes open and covered in white.

Bran (turns to his attendant, eyes suddenly normal):

"Fetch Maester Wolkan; I need to send a Raven."

Attendant:

"To where, my Lord?"

Bran (with a distant look):

"Dragonstone"
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 07:14:03 pm by Elestan »
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #130 on: August 25, 2017, 03:24:01 pm »
0

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #131 on: August 25, 2017, 04:48:49 pm »
0

Snip

Aaaaaand this guy gets it!

There is an issue there that Daenerys doesn't know Bran and wouldn't understand why he knows what's going on north of Eastwatch.  Tyrion knows Bran, but doesn't know of his Greenseer abilities.  We could assume Bran can circumvent that, though, and we would never have to see the contents of his message.

Though, regardless of whether it's ultimately more believable, I think it would actually have given us less pause while watching, which I think is more important, since that's what takes away from immersion.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #132 on: August 27, 2017, 11:06:54 pm »
+1

My takeaway from tonight

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #133 on: August 28, 2017, 09:13:38 am »
0

THAAAAANK GOD my sweet sweet winter children. I could not have been happier about how littlefinger ended. No trickery, no assasination, just called out in front of everyone, "you have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #134 on: August 28, 2017, 09:19:43 am »
0

THAAAAANK GOD my sweet sweet winter children. I could not have been happier about how littlefinger ended. No trickery, no assasination, just called out in front of everyone, "you have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting.

Yeah, though the in-character motivation for the entire ruse is a bit lacking.  There was enough to justify it based on Bran and Sansa's knowledge alone; Littlefinger trying to turn Sansa and Arya against each other was more for the reveal effect for the audience. 
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #135 on: August 28, 2017, 09:33:46 am »
0

THAAAAANK GOD my sweet sweet winter children. I could not have been happier about how littlefinger ended. No trickery, no assasination, just called out in front of everyone, "you have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting.

Yeah, though the in-character motivation for the entire ruse is a bit lacking.  There was enough to justify it based on Bran and Sansa's knowledge alone; Littlefinger trying to turn Sansa and Arya against each other was more for the reveal effect for the audience.

Agreed...but I forgive them anyway:
* Sansa is being made unbelievably stupid for the purpose of injecting unnecessary dramatic tension.  Caveat:  If she and Arya are playing up their enmity deliberately to sucker Littlefinger, then all will be forgiven.

I am, however, still annoyed by the fact that the whole wight retrieval mission turned out to be an own goal of monumental proportions.

And Sam must have been taking lessons from the Ravens...Oldtown to Winterfell in one episode?  That's what, over 2000 miles in a horse and cart?
« Last Edit: August 28, 2017, 10:10:15 am by Elestan »
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #136 on: August 28, 2017, 09:52:42 am »
0

THAAAAANK GOD my sweet sweet winter children. I could not have been happier about how littlefinger ended. No trickery, no assasination, just called out in front of everyone, "you have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting.

Yeah, though the in-character motivation for the entire ruse is a bit lacking.  There was enough to justify it based on Bran and Sansa's knowledge alone; Littlefinger trying to turn Sansa and Arya against each other was more for the reveal effect for the audience.

I actually think this is another time constraint issue and not a plot issue. Think if we had littlefingers pov every once in awhile, hanging out at winterfell dangerously surrounded by those he has betrayed. At the first sign of danger he would be back to the vale safely up in the tower where no one could get him. I think is makes plot sense that Sansa and arya would have to bait littlefinger in to a big meeting full of stark soldiers and supporters.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #137 on: August 28, 2017, 10:03:22 am »
0

Think if we had littlefingers pov every once in awhile, hanging out at winterfell dangerously surrounded by those he has betrayed. At the first sign of danger he would be back to the vale safely up in the tower where no one could get him. I think is makes plot sense that Sansa and arya would have to bait littlefinger in to a big meeting full of stark soldiers and supporters.

The Vale wouldn't have been any refuge once Sansa revealed that he killed Lysa; Yohn Royce would have happily beheaded him personally given half an excuse.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #138 on: August 28, 2017, 10:09:55 am »
0

I actually wrote a real review of the episode, this time.

https://reason.com/blog/2017/08/28/why-sansa-stark-will-win-the-game-of-thr

I am now fully convinced we are building toward Sansa Stark, Queen of the Andals and the First Men, Protector of the Realm and Ruler of the Seven Kingdoms.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #139 on: August 28, 2017, 11:38:20 am »
0

By the way, what are your thoughts on the Highgarden/Tyrell thing from a few episodes back?
Imo it's by far the worst plothole so far in the series.
I've defended this a few times.  It could have used more explanation/backstory, but it actually makes a lot of sense. 

The Reach has never been especially loyal to the Tyrells, but they respect Tarly.  Tyrell is siding with the daughter of the Mad King and bringing over hordes of Dothraki.  Backing her would mean certain revenge from Cersei, an immediate threat who just showed she was willing to blow up the Great Sept to destroy her enemies.  The Tyrell house is extinct; there's no more heirs.  There's very little reason for anyone in Highgarden to continue supporting the Tyrells.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #140 on: August 28, 2017, 12:04:30 pm »
0

So is Tormund dead?  And Beric, and anyone else hanging out there.  It didn't seem to linger on them too much, so I imagine we'll see some people coming out of the wreckage next season.  Seems hard to survive that big of a collapse though.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #141 on: August 28, 2017, 12:37:51 pm »
0

I actually wrote a real review of the episode, this time.

https://reason.com/blog/2017/08/28/why-sansa-stark-will-win-the-game-of-thr

I am now fully convinced we are building toward Sansa Stark, Queen of the Andals and the First Men, Protector of the Realm and Ruler of the Seven Kingdoms.
From that review:
Quote
Daeny is infertile. Unless the show undoes this plot point (which would be a fairly obnoxious cheat), a Daeny-Jon partnership could never produce an heir.

The show touched on that this episode; Jon pointed out that the only evidence that she is infertile is the word of the witch who killed her husband and son.  I'm fairly certain she'll end up pregnant next season.

Your article's argument seems to be that if Jon, Dany, and Cersei all die, Sansa is next in line.  I agree (she's the only great house leader left standing except Euron/Theon and the still-underage Robin Arryn, none of whom are remotely viable), but I don't think both Jon and Dany will die; one or both of them will rule Westeros, and Sansa will rule the North.  Whether the North rejoins the rest of Westeros is still not clear.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #142 on: August 28, 2017, 03:54:37 pm »
+1

I think what Rob is saying is not that Sansa is next in line, but that she is next of kin.  Based on my reading of the family trees, next in line actually appears to be Gendry, no?  Because Aerys has no more heirs, and Jaehaerys has no more heirs, so now you're on Aegon V, the only heir of which is Rhaelle -> Steffon -> Robert -> Gendry.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #143 on: August 28, 2017, 04:47:21 pm »
0

I think what Rob is saying is not that Sansa is next in line, but that she is next of kin.  Based on my reading of the family trees, next in line actually appears to be Gendry, no?  Because Aerys has no more heirs, and Jaehaerys has no more heirs, so now you're on Aegon V, the only heir of which is Rhaelle -> Steffon -> Robert -> Gendry.

Sure, but it seems to me, for practicality's sake, Jon is likely to name Sansa as next in line, and for the realm to accept her as such, since she is already well known and liked. Gendry is a realistic husband for her, though, in order to bring additional legitimacy, especially if Jon decrees him legitimated.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #144 on: August 28, 2017, 06:33:27 pm »
0

I really loved that episode. I was getting really frustrated with this season. It seemed a perfect example of being careful what you wish for when you consider how much complaining there had been over the first 6 seasons about the slow pace and storylines that barely progressed over the course of a whole season--that tone has been really missed. But I thought the finale did a great job of bringing the show back to feeling more like itself, and I really hope it can continue for the final season.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #145 on: August 28, 2017, 08:01:31 pm »
0

I find it kind of sad that littlefinger was actually as bad at plotting (since season 5) as he appeared to be.
Episode itself was quite good I think
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #146 on: August 28, 2017, 08:10:53 pm »
+1

This was a really good season if you don't think about the plots too hard.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #147 on: August 28, 2017, 08:36:56 pm »
0

I find it kind of sad that littlefinger was actually as bad at plotting (since season 5) as he appeared to be.

Lots of things on the show degraded once they outran their source material and had to start writing it themselves.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #148 on: August 28, 2017, 09:06:07 pm »
0

I find it kind of sad that littlefinger was actually as bad at plotting (since season 5) as he appeared to be.

Lots of things on the show degraded once they outran their source material and had to start writing it themselves.
Jep, I know. But I mean, I find it unsatisfying that littlefinger was made to be that bad by D&D.

Anyway, #teamnightking is rolling! Woooo :-)
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #149 on: August 29, 2017, 01:39:38 pm »
0

Is he really that bad?  Subtract Bran, and his plan works pretty well.  But in the end he got outplayed by a guy who somehow became a walking WeirwoodPedia.  (Well not the walking part.)  No one could have foreseen that.

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #150 on: August 29, 2017, 01:45:36 pm »
0

Is he really that bad?  Subtract Bran, and his plan works pretty well.  But in the end he got outplayed by a guy who somehow became a walking WeirwoodPedia.  (Well not the walking part.)  No one could have foreseen that.

So much for his speech about anticipating every possibility. Though it should have been a hint that that scene was interrupted by bran's arrival.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #151 on: August 29, 2017, 01:52:49 pm »
+1

I feel the show kind of screwed up making Bran (and Arya to an extent) too powerful. All the political scheming (which was always the thing I enjoyed the most) just feels very pointless now that they have human wikipedia Bran hanging around no one is even bothering to consult. (Of course Sam walks in and all of a sudden Bran is so very helpful going back and checking things, but that's a whole another can of worms).


There are cool things like flying ice dragons bringing down the wall, but I'm way past the point of suspending disbelief because the writing's been so bad ever since they surpassed the books. The show is basically your standard Hollywood action flick at this point. GRRM would probably be disappointed it has come to this, if he wasn't raking in millions upon millions as a result.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #152 on: August 29, 2017, 02:42:35 pm »
0

Hmm.. it felt a lot like Littlefinger was scheming because that was what his character does, and they couldn't just have him around without him causing a lot of trouble.  It ended up feeling kind of forced.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #153 on: August 29, 2017, 02:46:22 pm »
0

Littlefinger's show!plot started going wrong when they decided to have him give Sansa to the Boltons, a decision that made absolutely no sense, except from the showrunners' perspective of wanting Sansa to suffer even more horror than she had already suffered.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #154 on: August 29, 2017, 03:51:39 pm »
+1

Littlefinger's show!plot started going wrong when they decided to have him give Sansa to the Boltons, a decision that made absolutely no sense, except from the showrunners' perspective of wanting Sansa to suffer even more horror than she had already suffered.
I remember being a blue-eyed, hopeful young man on the edge of my seat waiting to find out what LF's master plan was with that.

Such a sweet summer child I was.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #155 on: August 29, 2017, 05:21:37 pm »
0

I for one liked the Littlefinger part a lot.

I don't think it makes him too stupid, though I concede the problem that there is probably no smart overarching plan that explains all of his prior decisions.

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #156 on: August 29, 2017, 05:30:24 pm »
0

The weakest part on reflection was actually the Theon bit I think. Otherwise I'd say the finale was quite good. Lots of built-up tension that lead to nothing, but that's okay.

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #157 on: August 29, 2017, 05:38:50 pm »
0

Showrunners continue to mistakenly think people care about Theon. I just don't get it. So much Theon, but fan favorite Lyanna Mormont got one scene this season. Melisandre got two scenes. Brienne did like one thing. But Theon, Theon, Theon.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #158 on: August 29, 2017, 06:47:09 pm »
0

I care about theon. Though not as much as about Melisandre.

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #159 on: August 29, 2017, 06:49:32 pm »
0

I was sad to see Littlefinger go. Don't really mind the way he did, but wonder about the timing and I think the show will miss him, or at least the plots that he moved forward early on.

He, as a character, is one of the main driving forces of plot in the show. Think of everything that happened because of him:

1. Jon Arryn dies (leaving void Ned fills)
2. Sends letter implying threat from Lannister
3. Gets Tyrion arrested
4. Points Ned in direction of Stannis being the rightful ruler and Joffrey being illegitimate.
4a. Although I don't think it is ever stated, he must have been involved in King Robert's death as well?
5. Betrays Ned Stark
6. Wins over the Tyrells after Renly's death
7. Plots and succeeds to have Joffrey killed
8. Takes Sansa away from King's Landing
9. Kills Lysa Arryn
10. Marries Sansa to the Boltons In the book he trained Jeyne Poole in one of his brothels
11. Leads the forces of the Arryn to the Battle of the Bastards

And then he kinda stopped doing anything this season. That was disappointing.

I had thought he was part of the Red Wedding plot as well, but looks like that was just Tywin, the Freys and the Boltons in cahoots there.

Regardless, without Littlefinger there isn't really a Game of Thrones. Robert would probably still be alive. Bran wouldn't have seen Jaime and Cersi and would not have fallen. Ned would still be alive in Winterfell. Stannis would still be at Dragonstone. The Lannisters would be probably content to just play second fiddle to the Baratheons. There would still be Daenerys in Essos, but her claim against a united Westeros wouldn't stand as much of a chance. And there would still be the White Walkers, but again, a united Westeros would hopefully be able to take care of them.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #160 on: August 29, 2017, 06:51:11 pm »
0

I care about theon. Though not as much as about Melisandre.
I feel as if Theon is a stand in for about 4 characters from the books. He is filling multiple roles, including his own, which I think waters down his involvement and makes him more important than his own self actually deserves to be.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #161 on: August 29, 2017, 10:53:47 pm »
0

Is he really that bad?  Subtract Bran, and his plan works pretty well.  But in the end he got outplayed by a guy who somehow became a walking WeirwoodPedia.  (Well not the walking part.)  No one could have foreseen that.
Yes!

The ned thing was in a throne room with a bunch of visitors, also Cersei could have talked at any point. Vy the way, that event is 6 years ago.

The lysa murder sansa knew about, lied to royce about it and ignored it. Again, 4 years ago.

Littlefinger should have calculated those two things being known and should have prepared plausible excuses/planned accordingly.

Also, it wasn't too far fetched that Sansa/Arya might talk about the issue and it's quite terrible to have no possible reaction in that eventuality.


The Jon Arryn murder accusal was obviously undefendable except for outright denial (I mean, there is no proof at all) but one has to blame LF for not adjusting to an omniscient person being around. LF clearly knew that ("chaos is a ladder") and should have prepared to either leave winterfell asap or to rid himself of bran. But he decided to just ignore it which is absolutely stupid


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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #162 on: August 30, 2017, 01:43:10 am »
+1

Is he really that bad?  Subtract Bran, and his plan works pretty well.  But in the end he got outplayed by a guy who somehow became a walking WeirwoodPedia.  (Well not the walking part.)  No one could have foreseen that.
Yes!

The ned thing was in a throne room with a bunch of visitors, also Cersei could have talked at any point. Vy the way, that event is 6 years ago.

The lysa murder sansa knew about, lied to royce about it and ignored it. Again, 4 years ago.

Littlefinger should have calculated those two things being known and should have prepared plausible excuses/planned accordingly.

Also, it wasn't too far fetched that Sansa/Arya might talk about the issue and it's quite terrible to have no possible reaction in that eventuality.


The Jon Arryn murder accusal was obviously undefendable except for outright denial (I mean, there is no proof at all) but one has to blame LF for not adjusting to an omniscient person being around. LF clearly knew that ("chaos is a ladder") and should have prepared to either leave winterfell asap or to rid himself of bran. But he decided to just ignore it which is absolutely stupid
Of the things LF knew that the Starks knew, nothing could bring him down.  Sansa doesn't know the Lysa/Ned story.  Arya knows the Tywin-LF connection, but LF doesn't know that.  LF's biggest risk was Sansa/Arya, which is why the show spent all that time showing Sansa/Arya's deception of LF.  (Which most people said was irrational from the characters, even though it was patently obvious that the characters were deceiving LF.)  But that wouldn't have happened if they didn't have access to WeirwoodPedia.  LF was scheming the whole season, it's just that he was out-schemed by people with way more knowledge.

Also I don't think LF knew Bran was some god-like figure.  Which is more likely, that a cripple boy heard your catchphrase from somebody or that he's stream-sniping the entire universe?

Besides, his downfall is supposed to be symbolic.  Ned fell when he went south but found that people valued power over honor.  LF fell when he went north but found that people valued honor over power.
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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #163 on: August 30, 2017, 07:51:14 am »
0

Littlefinger should have calculated those two things being known and should have prepared plausible excuses/planned accordingly.
Also, it wasn't too far fetched that Sansa/Arya might talk about the issue and it's quite terrible to have no possible reaction in that eventuality.

The thing is, the way Sansa and Arya arranged it, they managed to catch LF off guard, he clearly wasn´t prepared at THAT very moment. Why wasn't he? I think he just underestimated Sansa and felt in wrong security, because he was too sure Sansa got trapped by his "What's the worst thing Arya could want"-scene. Which is not entirely unplausible, because Sansa had lots of moments already where she almost blindly followed LF's advices. But if the Stark sisters wouldn't have used the element of surprise, I bet he would have looked better defending himself.
In fact he even tried to convince Sansa to talk with her privatly, so he had time to find some excuses.
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Kuildeous

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #164 on: September 05, 2017, 09:26:53 am »
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I feel the show kind of screwed up making Bran (and Arya to an extent) too powerful.

I was joking that the Stark household is full of Mary Sues: Jon is royal blood, Sansa leads Winterfell, Bran is nigh-omniscient, and Arya is unstoppable.

Of course, they all endured 7 years of shit to reach those points, so their rewards are paid for, but I could imagine someone tuning in this season believing that these are Mary Sues.

I'm rather glad for it actually. The characters are coming into their own.
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silverspawn

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Re: Game of Thrones (show) [spoiler warning]
« Reply #165 on: September 05, 2017, 09:31:36 am »
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As I rewatched episode 7 I realized that there is a really simple way to fix the Theon storyline: everything happens like in the episode, except the guy kills Theon, and that's it. That would be so... game of thrones. Way better.
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