Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: Is it ever worthwhile to buy trashers on a Donate board?  (Read 3432 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

JacquesTheBard

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 246
  • Respect: +249
    • View Profile
Is it ever worthwhile to buy trashers on a Donate board?
« on: July 11, 2017, 03:49:12 pm »
+1

Dominion is full of glorious edge-cases. Obviously I can see picking up cards that give benefits other than trashing. Getting Steward for draw, for example. I can also see the addition of trash for benefit cards. Maybe a single trasher to activate Market Squares mid-turn. But cards where thinning is the whole point, like Chapel? They're borderline obsolete.
Logged

terminalCopper

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 331
  • Respect: +758
    • View Profile
Re: Is it ever worthwhile to buy trashers on a Donate board?
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2017, 04:03:19 pm »
+8

Against junk attacks, you want a trasher to avoid getting 8 debt on a regular basis.
Logged

aku_chi

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 622
  • Shuffle iT Username: aku chi
  • Respect: +1435
    • View Profile
Re: Is it ever worthwhile to buy trashers on a Donate board?
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2017, 04:29:45 pm »
+3

There are plenty of cases where you want a trasher in a Donate kingdom if there is junking or the trasher does something else for you.  I've played Donate games where Trader or Bishop played a big role after Donating.  I played one Donate game where I got a Forager just for the +buy (so I had to keep some junk around to gain multiple cards per turn post-Donate).

The Chapel case is certainly more edgecasey.  Maybe you're setting up some kind of Chapel + Tomb payload or golden deck, maybe with Fortresses.  I thought about Beggar first, but then I realized that if there are any villages, Donate would be better for the trashing: a deck of 3 Villages and 4 Beggars would generate 12 VP per turn until the Coppers run out.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 04:45:27 pm by aku_chi »
Logged

faust

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3376
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +5142
    • View Profile
Re: Is it ever worthwhile to buy trashers on a Donate board?
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2017, 04:03:57 pm »
+1

There's definitely a case for Chapel > Donate on a Alms board.
Logged
You say the ocean's rising, like I give a shit
You say the whole world's ending, honey it already did

ackmondual

  • Witch
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 463
  • Respect: +294
    • View Profile
Re: Is it ever worthwhile to buy trashers on a Donate board?
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2017, 12:40:27 am »
0

Dominion is full of glorious edge-cases. Obviously I can see picking up cards that give benefits other than trashing. Getting Steward for draw, for example. I can also see the addition of trash for benefit cards. Maybe a single trasher to activate Market Squares mid-turn. But cards where thinning is the whole point, like Chapel? They're borderline obsolete.
There actually are cases to get 2 Chapels, so why not?

Trashing cards to get VP from Tomb. 
Buying Estates to get VP from Battlefield, then trash those. 
TfB trashers.
Buying Copper to get VP from Basilica or Labyrinth
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 12:41:36 am by ackmondual »
Logged
Village, +2 Actions.  Village, +3 Actions.  Village, +4 Actions.  Village, +5 Actions.  Village, +6 Actions.  Village, +7 Actions.  Workers Village, +2 Buys, +8 Actions.  End Action Phase.  No Treasures to play.  No buy.  No Night cards to play

Titandrake

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2210
  • Respect: +2854
    • View Profile
Re: Is it ever worthwhile to buy trashers on a Donate board?
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2017, 02:00:48 am »
0

Dominion is full of glorious edge-cases. Obviously I can see picking up cards that give benefits other than trashing. Getting Steward for draw, for example. I can also see the addition of trash for benefit cards. Maybe a single trasher to activate Market Squares mid-turn. But cards where thinning is the whole point, like Chapel? They're borderline obsolete.
There actually are cases to get 2 Chapels, so why not?

Trashing cards to get VP from Tomb. 
Buying Estates to get VP from Battlefield, then trash those. 
TfB trashers.
Buying Copper to get VP from Basilica or Labyrinth

I've sometimes bought a 2nd Chapel when I've had awful shuffle luck, like drawing Chapel turn 5 with my turn 3 and turn 4 buy. I don't know if it's correct, since normally those games are so far gone that I lose anyways.
Logged
I have a blog! It's called Sorta Insightful. Check it out?

jomini

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1060
  • Respect: +766
    • View Profile
Re: Is it ever worthwhile to buy trashers on a Donate board?
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2017, 10:04:12 am »
0

Dominion is full of glorious edge-cases. Obviously I can see picking up cards that give benefits other than trashing. Getting Steward for draw, for example. I can also see the addition of trash for benefit cards. Maybe a single trasher to activate Market Squares mid-turn. But cards where thinning is the whole point, like Chapel? They're borderline obsolete.

Sure, there are a bunch of options there:
1. Getting a cheap way to deal with junking attacks. Say you grab Followers, I can either plan to burn $8 on trashing periodically or spend a cheap, spare buy (e.g. Princess lets me grab a Amulet for $1 & a buy) and kill the curses in turn. Once your deck is maximally thinned, lining up trash and trasher is really easy and 8 debt becomes a much higher opportunity cost. Plus, of course, there are plenty of options for gaining trashing on the cheap - Iw a Smerch to deal with Kc/Nbrig. $8 with a buy is almost always enough to buy 2 out of the three things you need to trash in turn - draw, action, and trashing ability; very often you will already have one of those in excess.

Some might argue that getting junking attacks in a Donate game is bad, but ultimately if I spend $5 on something like Mountebank or Witch, I am forcing you to spend $8 later. Not always a good trade with future discounting, but not always bad if I want the secondary bonus of the attack (e.g. if I need net draw for my Tr engine).

2. In like manner I may be gaining junk (e.g. Followers, Defiled shrine, Ritual, Whunt, Gkeeper) for some benefit and the opportunity cost of adding a trasher is less than Donating periodically. Other similar ideas include cheap Possession defense (trash out some coin so my deck no longer hit $8 without having to skip a Possession buy). Repeated activation of on-trash cards (e.g. Sqr, Feoda).

3. Deck tailoring for scoring Landmarks on the final turn. For example I might grab a Chapel so I have the option of dumping Gold with Bandit Fort if I think I can three pile soon. Likewise, I may want to get rid of stuff like trashing attacks or duration cards with Wall out (e.g. Tr/Chapel on my last turn to burn Amb/Opost/3x Hwoods/3x village for a net gain of 7 VP). Wolf den is also possible. I could donate my penultimate turn ... but that means my opponent has a turn to respond and I have to burn a $8 and a buy.

4. Seeding on gain bonuses (e.g. Bv, Mandarin, Inn) into the trash during my turn to gain them with Grobber or Rogue. This prevents my opponent from snagging my bonuses.

« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 10:08:35 am by jomini »
Logged

luser

  • Tactician
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 447
  • Respect: +352
    • View Profile
Re: Is it ever worthwhile to buy trashers on a Donate board?
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2017, 11:25:53 am »
0

possession doesn't work as donate is much better to glass your deck Once you could play multiple possessions per turn just use donate to trash all treasures with debt opponent couldn't buy copper while possessing you
Logged

jomini

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1060
  • Respect: +766
    • View Profile
Re: Is it ever worthwhile to buy trashers on a Donate board?
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2017, 04:21:27 pm »
0

possession doesn't work as donate is much better to glass your deck Once you could play multiple possessions per turn just use donate to trash all treasures with debt opponent couldn't buy copper while possessing you

Depends on the opportunity cost. Buying a Donate means you are sacrificing a Province buy. Using a TfB, like say Forager, allows you to both deny provinces next turn and gain one this turn. Likewise, I can do something like both gain Possession and nuke my hand the same turn. Delaying a turn means you can have a shot at getting VP off my hand.

Take a simple setup - Kc/Possession/Forager/Iw/draw. Iw gives you a mostly free Forager. That in turn can let you trash a silver, hit $6P, and then when I Kc/Possess you, I can at best hit $4P (assuming Silver, Copper, and Pot were already in the trash). With Donate you face the choice of getting a Possession or Donating. With a TfB, you can do both.

If you get the TfB I get 3 Estates. If you Donate, you cannot Possesses me. Sounds like a classic edge case.
Logged

tim17

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 132
  • Respect: +276
    • View Profile
Re: Is it ever worthwhile to buy trashers on a Donate board?
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2017, 01:28:25 am »
0

Against junk attacks, you want a trasher to avoid getting 8 debt on a regular basis.
Unless your payload is a bunch of goons and you buy coppers/curses + donate every turn.
Logged

luser

  • Tactician
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 447
  • Respect: +352
    • View Profile
Re: Is it ever worthwhile to buy trashers on a Donate board?
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2017, 06:57:31 am »
0

That example has nothing to do with possession but its just case of forager being only buy in kingdom. And it doesn't work because opponent would get three provinces with donate by playing your kc-forager with copper,silver,potion in trash.
Logged

Chris is me

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2745
  • Shuffle iT Username: Chris is me
  • What do you want me to say?
  • Respect: +3457
    • View Profile
Re: Is it ever worthwhile to buy trashers on a Donate board?
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2017, 09:32:05 am »
+1

the idea that you wouldn't set up a stalemate or checkmate position by donating Down to Just Possessions because you might skip a Province buy once is really silly. like of COURSE you should do this if you can play >1 Possession a turn. you're literally trading 1 turn of buying stuff for making all of your opponent's Possessions useless for the rest of the game. that's pretty phenomenal.

and like it's not even "oh if you buy donate to do that you skipped a Province lol" because donate is free. The debt is a feature not a bug in that instance. it is what makes your deck fully useless - you can't even buy Copper
« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 09:33:48 am by Chris is me »
Logged
Twitch channel: http://www.twitch.tv/chrisisme2791

bug me on discord

pm me if you wanna do stuff for the blog

they/them

MatthewCA

  • Thief
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 93
  • Respect: +86
    • View Profile
Re: Is it ever worthwhile to buy trashers on a Donate board?
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2017, 12:05:46 pm »
0

I could see me buying farmland while greening no matter what else is on the board, but is farmland really a trasher?
Logged
Pages: [1]
 

Page created in 0.048 seconds with 21 queries.