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Author Topic: why cultist shouldn't be top 3 in the $5 list  (Read 1064 times)

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funkdoc

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why cultist shouldn't be top 3 in the $5 list
« on: July 08, 2017, 03:49:34 pm »
+2

game #5005045

i get worst possible draws on 2nd shuffle (double silver -> no $5), while my opponent gets the best possible draws (opened silver/temple, trashed hovel & overgrown estate, bought cultist).  i lose the ruins split something like 8-2 or maybe even 9-1...then i decide to pivot to a hunting party stack with temples.  i kept necropolis around for this.

meanwhile, opponent sticks to the standard theory of cultist-BM, and that allows me to gradually climb back into the game and eventually steal it.  cultist-BM is just too slow against any deck that can draw a bunch of cards and clean itself up decently, even if there isn't a lot of payload to be had.

Chris is me

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Re: why cultist shouldn't be top 3 in the $5 list
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2017, 06:11:52 pm »
+4

I mean yes a junker BM strategy generally doesn't perform well against a sloggy strategy where you can trash cards to score a lot of victory points? but this has a lot to do with the specific circumstances of Temple needing to trash differently named cards and hunting party being there to draw them

but why play cultist BM exclusively when there's hunting party, necro, and trashing? cultist is too 3, not "cultist BM"
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funkdoc

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Re: why cultist shouldn't be top 3 in the $5 list
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2017, 10:52:21 pm »
0

well, if winning the junking war doesn't win the game, i don't think it makes for a top 3 card.  do you think i would've had a hope in hell if cultist were replaced with mountebank and i lost the curse split even 7-3?

dunno, i just see more boards now where cultist is outright ignorable.  that's still on the rarer side, but much more common are the boards where winning ruins 6-4 doesn't matter much at all - it's what you do afterward that counts.  i feel comfortable saying that the majority of boards have a stronger engine possible than what we had here!

actually, as i think about it further, ignoring cultist was probably correct on that board!  i mean, the ruins split for me was almost as if i *had* ignored it, but probably worse since i did buy cultists.  i would've won that game more easily had those cultists been hunting parties, no?

ConMan

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Re: why cultist shouldn't be top 3 in the $5 list
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2017, 01:12:17 am »
+2

This is a bold claim, but I suspect that for any card in the top 3 of its respective list, there are ample boards on which it is the wrong card to go for. In fact, I would be kind of disappointed if that wasn't the case. Doesn't make the cards bad, any more than finding that mythical board where you should open Scout makes it a good card.
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funkdoc

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Re: why cultist shouldn't be top 3 in the $5 list
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2017, 12:27:38 pm »
0

counterpoint: donate

(in before "that's not a ~card~")

but more seriously, i'm positive there are 3 other $5 cards with fewer hard counters than cultist.  this board didn't even have any of the main ones!  i'm thinking of stuff like city quarter, advance, and vineyards.  even page doesn't counter mountebank as much as those do with cultist - you still want an early mountebank to slow down your opponent's path to champion.

aku_chi

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Re: why cultist shouldn't be top 3 in the $5 list
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2017, 12:42:04 pm »
+2

Mountebank is also usually worth getting on a Donate board.  Cultist is harder to justify.

Empires definitely added more ways to deal with Ruins (Temple, Sacrifice, Advance, City Quarter), but those are rarely reason enough to completely ignore Cultist.  Dealing with all the Ruins takes time, and Cultist is a decent draw card.  Also, after the Ruins are gone you can get good value from trashing Cultists with Temple and especially Sacrifice.  Also, Empires added Villa, which goes great with Cultist chains.

A year ago I was unsure, but recent experience makes me very confident that Mountebank > Cultist.  But I'm also pretty confident that Cultist > Witch.  That automatically makes Cultist a top-4 $5 card for me.  I don't have a strong feel for whether Governor and/or Wharf are stronger than Cultist, and I don't really mind not knowing.  All five of the cards I mentioned are usually dominant cards when they appear - though exceptions exist.
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funkdoc

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Re: why cultist shouldn't be top 3 in the $5 list
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2017, 03:51:44 pm »
0

here's one i would rank above cultist at this point: groundskeeper

another game i played fairly recently illustrates this pretty well.  i went for cultist-BM, opponent completely ignored cultists.  the board had castles, goons, groundskeeper, and bishop...but no villages or draw, or even any trashing besides bishop.  i thought eating all 10 ruins would be a death sentence for them, but they persisted with the alt-VP and beat me.  they even misplayed it quite a bit, only getting 3 groundskeepers; if they had concentrated more on those, i suspect it wouldn't have been close.

granted, getting 2 or 3 cultists then transitioning was probably the way to go there.  but cultist wasn't *the* power card on that board even with all its limitations...

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Re: why cultist shouldn't be top 3 in the $5 list
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2017, 02:00:10 pm »
0

#5318685 was a game i played against jeebus where they countered my cultists really hard by using steward, lookout, advance and grand markets. If you want to see a cultist player outplayed, watch this game :D
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FirstTimePlayer

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Re: why cultist shouldn't be top 3 in the $5 list
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2017, 06:22:04 pm »
0

Where can you find the game log by searching the game number? Also is there somewhere that shows actual win loss record as opposed to just rating system?
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Splee

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Re: why cultist shouldn't be top 3 in the $5 list
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2017, 06:20:18 pm »
+1

... they countered my cultists really hard ... advance and grand markets
This might say more about Grand Market + Advance than it does for Cultist. Grand Market + Advance is strong enough to go Rats, or even open Chapel / Chapel.
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Re: why cultist shouldn't be top 3 in the $5 list
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2017, 02:06:55 am »
0

Thoughts I've been having for some time.
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Re: why cultist shouldn't be top 3 in the $5 list
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2017, 12:18:14 pm »
0

here's one i would rank above cultist at this point: groundskeeper

another game i played fairly recently illustrates this pretty well.  i went for cultist-BM, opponent completely ignored cultists.  the board had castles, goons, groundskeeper, and bishop...but no villages or draw, or even any trashing besides bishop.  i thought eating all 10 ruins would be a death sentence for them, but they persisted with the alt-VP and beat me.  they even misplayed it quite a bit, only getting 3 groundskeepers; if they had concentrated more on those, i suspect it wouldn't have been close.

granted, getting 2 or 3 cultists then transitioning was probably the way to go there.  but cultist wasn't *the* power card on that board even with all its limitations...

Groundskeeper is particularly good with alt-VP, and supremely good with Action-Victory and Treasure-Victory cards.  No wonder it's good with Castles.
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AJD

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Re: why cultist shouldn't be top 3 in the $5 list
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2017, 01:23:43 am »
+1

Just wanted to share this game (6121363), which I won despite the fact that my opponent opened Cultist and gave me all the Ruins before I was able to buy my first $5 card.

Code: [Select]
Turn 1 - AJD
A plays 4 Coppers.
A buys and gains an Ironmonger.
A draws 3 Coppers, a Hovel and a Necropolis.

Turn 1 - KAKEDASU
K plays a Necropolis.
K plays 2 Coppers.
K buys and gains a Raze.
K draws 5 Coppers.

Turn 2 - AJD
A plays 3 Coppers.
A buys and gains an Ambassador.
A shuffles their deck.
A draws 3 Coppers, an Ambassador and an Overgrown Estate.

Turn 2 - KAKEDASU
K plays 5 Coppers.
K buys and gains a Cultist.
K shuffles their deck.
K draws 3 Coppers, a Cultist and an Overgrown Estate.

Turn 3 - AJD
A plays an Ambassador.
A returns 2 Coppers to the Copper pile.
K gains a Copper.
A draws 3 Coppers, an Ironmonger and a Necropolis.

Turn 3 - KAKEDASU
K plays a Cultist.
K draws 2 Coppers.
A gains a Ruined Library.
K plays 5 Coppers.
K buys and gains a Cultist.
K draws 2 Coppers, a Hovel, a Necropolis and a Raze.

Turn 4 - AJD
A plays an Ironmonger.
A draws a Hovel.
A reveals a Copper.
A discards a Copper.
A plays 3 Coppers.
A buys and gains an Ironmonger.
A shuffles their deck.
A draws 3 Coppers, an Ambassador and a Hovel.

Turn 4 - KAKEDASU
K plays a Raze.
K trashes a Hovel.
K shuffles their deck.
K looks at a Copper.
K puts a Copper into their hand.
K plays a Necropolis.
K plays 3 Coppers.
K buys and gains a Silver.
K draws 3 Coppers, a Cultist and an Overgrown Estate.

Turn 5 - AJD
A plays an Ambassador.
A returns 2 Coppers to the Copper pile.
K gains a Copper.
A draws 2 Coppers, an Ironmonger, a Necropolis and a Ruined Library.

Turn 5 - KAKEDASU
K plays a Cultist.
K draws 2 Coppers.
A gains a Ruined Market.
K plays 5 Coppers.
K buys and gains a Cultist.
K shuffles their deck.
K draws 2 Coppers, a Cultist, an Overgrown Estate and a Raze.

Turn 6 - AJD
A plays an Ironmonger.
A draws an Overgrown Estate.
A reveals an Ironmonger.
A topdecks an Ironmonger.
A plays 2 Coppers.
A buys and gains a Raze.
A shuffles their deck.
A draws an Ambassador, a Hovel, 2 Ironmongers and a Ruined Market.

Turn 6 - KAKEDASU
K plays a Raze.
K trashes an Overgrown Estate.
K draws a Cultist.
K looks at a Copper.
K puts a Copper into their hand.
K plays a Cultist.
K draws a Copper and a Cultist.
A gains a Ruined Library.
K plays a Cultist.
K draws 2 Coppers.
A gains an Abandoned Mine.
K plays a Cultist.
K draws a Copper and a Silver.
A gains an Abandoned Mine.
K plays a Silver and 7 Coppers.
K buys and gains a Gold.
K shuffles their deck.
K draws 4 Coppers and a Necropolis.

Turn 7 - AJD
A plays an Ironmonger.
A draws a Necropolis.
A reveals a Copper.
A discards a Copper.
A plays an Ironmonger.
A draws a Ruined Library.
A reveals an Overgrown Estate.
A discards an Overgrown Estate.
A draws a Raze.
A plays a Raze.
A trashes a Hovel.
A looks at a Copper.
A puts a Copper into their hand.
A plays a Necropolis.
A plays a Ruined Library.
A draws a Copper.
A plays an Ambassador.
A returns a Ruined Market to the Ruins pile.
K gains a Ruined Market.
A plays 2 Coppers.
A buys and gains a Silver.
A shuffles their deck.
A draws 2 Coppers, an Ironmonger, an Overgrown Estate and a Ruined Library.

Turn 7 - KAKEDASU
K plays 4 Coppers.
K buys and gains an Ironmonger.
K draws 2 Coppers, 2 Cultists and a Raze.

Turn 8 - AJD
A plays an Ironmonger.
A draws an Ambassador.
A reveals an Ironmonger.
A topdecks an Ironmonger.
A plays a Ruined Library.
A draws an Ironmonger.
A plays an Ironmonger.
A draws a Copper.
A reveals an Abandoned Mine.
A discards an Abandoned Mine.
A plays an Ambassador.
K gains a Copper.
A plays 3 Coppers.
A buys and gains a Silver.
A draws a Silver, an Abandoned Mine, a Necropolis, a Ruined Library and a Raze.

Turn 8 - KAKEDASU
K plays a Raze.
K trashes a Copper.
K plays a Cultist.
K draws a Silver and a Gold.
A gains a Ruined Market.
K plays a Cultist.
K draws a Copper and a Cultist.
A gains a Ruined Market.
K plays a Cultist.
K draws 2 Coppers.
A gains a Ruined Library.
K plays a Silver, a Gold and 4 Coppers.
K buys and gains a Province.
K shuffles their deck.
K draws 2 Coppers, a Silver, a Province and a Ruined Market.

Turn 9 - AJD
A plays a Necropolis.
A plays a Ruined Library.
A shuffles their deck.
A draws an Overgrown Estate.
A plays a Raze.
A trashes an Overgrown Estate.
A draws a Copper.
A looks at an Abandoned Mine.
A puts an Abandoned Mine into their hand.
A plays an Abandoned Mine.
A plays a Silver and a Copper.
A buys and gains a Silver.
A draws a Copper, an Ironmonger, a Ruined Library and 2 Ruined Markets.

Turn 9 - KAKEDASU
K plays a Ruined Market.
K plays a Silver and 2 Coppers.
K buys and gains an Ironmonger.
K draws 3 Coppers and 2 Cultists.

Turn 10 - AJD
A plays an Ironmonger.
A draws a Silver.
A reveals an Ironmonger.
A topdecks an Ironmonger.
A plays a Ruined Library.
A draws an Ironmonger.
A plays an Ironmonger.
A draws a Ruined Library.
A reveals an Ambassador.
A topdecks an Ambassador.
A plays a Ruined Library.
A draws an Ambassador.
A plays an Ambassador.
A returns 2 Ruined Markets to the Ruins pile.
K gains a Ruined Market.
A plays a Silver and a Copper.
A buys and gains a Silver.
A shuffles their deck.
A draws 3 Coppers, an Ironmonger and a Ruined Library.

Turn 10 - KAKEDASU
K plays a Cultist.
K draws a Copper and an Ironmonger.
A gains a Ruined Market.
K plays a Cultist.
K draws a Cultist and a Necropolis.
A gains an Abandoned Mine.
K plays a Cultist.
K draws a Copper and a Raze.
A gains an Abandoned Mine.
K plays 5 Coppers.
K buys and gains a Governor.
K shuffles their deck.
K draws 2 Coppers, a Silver, a Gold and a Ruined Market.

Turn 11 - AJD
A plays an Ironmonger.
A draws an Abandoned Mine.
A reveals a Necropolis.
A discards a Necropolis.
A plays a Ruined Library.
A draws an Abandoned Mine.
A plays an Abandoned Mine.
A plays 3 Coppers.
A buys and gains an Ironmonger.
A draws 3 Silvers, an Ambassador and a Ruined Library.

Turn 11 - KAKEDASU
K plays a Ruined Market.
K plays a Silver, a Gold and 2 Coppers.
K buys and gains a Gold.
K draws a Copper, a Province, a Cultist, an Ironmonger and a Necropolis.

Turn 12 - AJD
A plays an Ambassador.
A returns a Ruined Library to the Ruins pile.
K gains a Ruined Library.
A plays 3 Silvers.
A buys and gains a Governor.
A shuffles their deck.
A draws 2 Silvers, an Ironmonger, a Ruined Library and a Raze.

Turn 12 - KAKEDASU
K plays an Ironmonger.
K draws a Copper.
K reveals a Copper.
K discards a Copper.
K plays a Necropolis.
K plays a Cultist.
K draws a Copper and a Raze.
K plays a Raze.
K trashes a Raze.
K looks at a Copper and an Ironmonger.
K puts an Ironmonger into their hand.
K discards a Copper.
K plays an Ironmonger.
K draws a Ruined Market.
K reveals a Cultist.
K topdecks a Cultist.
K plays a Ruined Market.
K plays 3 Coppers.
K buys and gains an Ambassador.
K draws 2 Coppers, 2 Cultists and a Governor.

Turn 13 - AJD
A plays an Ironmonger.
A draws an Ironmonger.
A reveals a Ruined Library.
A discards a Ruined Library.
A plays an Ironmonger.
A draws a Copper.
A reveals an Ironmonger.
A topdecks an Ironmonger.
A plays a Ruined Library.
A draws an Ironmonger.
A plays an Ironmonger.
A draws an Abandoned Mine.
A reveals a Silver.
A topdecks a Silver.
A plays a Raze.
A trashes an Abandoned Mine.
A plays 2 Silvers and a Copper.
A buys and gains a Governor.
A draws a Silver, 3 Abandoned Mines and a Ruined Market.

Turn 13 - KAKEDASU
K plays a Governor.
K shuffles their deck.
K draws 2 Coppers and an Ironmonger.
A draws a Governor.
K plays an Ironmonger.
K draws a Copper.
K reveals a Cultist.
K topdecks a Cultist.
K plays a Cultist.
K draws a Cultist and a Necropolis.
K plays a Cultist.
K draws a Silver and a Ruined Market.
K plays a Cultist.
K draws 2 Coppers.
K plays a Necropolis.
K plays a Ruined Market.
K plays a Silver and 7 Coppers.
K buys and gains a Province.
K draws 2 Coppers, a Gold, a Province and a Ruined Library.

Turn 14 - AJD
A plays a Governor.
A gains a Gold.
K gains a Silver.
A plays an Abandoned Mine.
A plays a Silver.
A buys and gains a Tunnel.
A draws 2 Coppers, a Silver, an Ambassador and a Necropolis.

Turn 14 - KAKEDASU
K plays a Ruined Library.
K draws a Ruined Market.
K plays a Gold and 2 Coppers.
K buys and gains a Governor.
K shuffles their deck.
K draws a Gold, an Ambassador, a Cultist, an Ironmonger and a Governor.

Turn 15 - AJD
A plays an Ambassador.
A returns 2 Coppers to the Copper pile.
K gains a Copper.
A plays a Silver.
A buys and gains a Raze.
A shuffles their deck.
A draws a Silver, an Abandoned Mine, an Ironmonger, a Necropolis and a Ruined Market.

Turn 15 - KAKEDASU
K plays an Ironmonger.
K draws a Copper.
K reveals a Copper.
K discards a Copper.
K plays a Governor.
K draws a Province, a Cultist and a Necropolis.
A draws a Silver.
K plays a Necropolis.
K plays a Cultist.
K draws an Ironmonger and a Governor.
K plays a Cultist.
K draws 2 Silvers.
K plays an Ironmonger.
K draws a Copper.
K reveals a Copper.
K discards a Copper.
K plays a Governor.
K draws a Copper, a Gold and a Ruined Market.
A draws an Ironmonger.
K plays an Ambassador.
K returns a Ruined Market to the Ruins pile.
A gains a Ruined Market.
K plays 2 Silvers, 2 Golds and 3 Coppers.
K buys and gains a Province.
K draws 3 Coppers, a Ruined Library and a Ruined Market.

Turn 16 - AJD
A plays an Ironmonger.
A draws a Governor.
A reveals a Governor.
A topdecks a Governor.
A plays an Ironmonger.
A draws a Governor.
A reveals a Tunnel.
A discards a Tunnel.
A reacts with a Tunnel.
A reveals a Tunnel.
A gains a Gold.
A draws a Silver.
A plays a Governor.
A draws a Copper, a Silver and a Raze.
K draws a Copper.
A plays a Raze.
A trashes an Abandoned Mine.
A plays a Governor.
A trashes a Ruined Market.
A gains a Raze.
K trashes a Ruined Library.
A plays 4 Silvers and a Copper.
A buys and gains a Province.
A draws a Gold, an Ambassador, an Abandoned Mine, an Ironmonger and a Ruined Library.

Turn 16 - KAKEDASU
K plays a Ruined Market.
K plays 4 Coppers.
K buys and gains an Ironmonger.
K shuffles their deck.
K draws 2 Provinces, an Ambassador, a Cultist and a Ruined Market.

Turn 17 - AJD
A plays an Ironmonger.
A draws a Raze.
A reveals a Ruined Library.
A discards a Ruined Library.
A plays a Raze.
A trashes a Ruined Library.
A plays an Ambassador.
A returns an Abandoned Mine to the Ruins pile.
K gains an Abandoned Mine.
A plays a Gold.
A buys and gains a Tunnel.
A shuffles their deck.
A draws an Abandoned Mine, an Ironmonger, a Ruined Market, a Raze and a Governor.

Turn 17 - KAKEDASU
K plays an Ambassador.
K returns a Ruined Market to the Ruins pile.
A gains a Ruined Market.
K draws 2 Coppers, a Gold, a Cultist and an Ironmonger.

Turn 18 - AJD
A plays an Ironmonger.
A draws a Tunnel.
A reveals an Ironmonger.
A topdecks an Ironmonger.
A plays a Raze.
A trashes a Ruined Market.
A plays a Governor.
A draws a Silver, a Gold and an Ironmonger.
K draws an Ironmonger.
A plays an Ironmonger.
A draws a Tunnel.
A reveals a Province.
A discards a Province.
A draws a Silver.
A plays an Abandoned Mine.
A plays 2 Silvers and a Gold.
A buys and gains a Province.
A draws a Silver, a Gold, a Necropolis, a Ruined Library and a Governor.

Turn 18 - KAKEDASU
K plays an Ironmonger.
K draws an Ironmonger.
K reveals a Cultist.
K topdecks a Cultist.
K plays an Ironmonger.
K draws a Cultist.
K reveals a Gold.
K topdecks a Gold.
K plays an Ironmonger.
K draws a Gold.
K reveals a Copper.
K topdecks a Copper.
K plays a Cultist.
K draws 2 Coppers.
K plays a Cultist.
K draws a Copper and a Silver.
K plays a Silver, 2 Golds and 5 Coppers.
K buys and gains a Province.
K draws 2 Coppers, a Silver, a Province and a Governor.

Turn 19 - AJD
A plays a Necropolis.
A plays a Ruined Library.
A draws a Copper.
A plays a Governor.
A draws an Ironmonger and 2 Razes.
K draws a Necropolis.
A plays an Ironmonger.
A draws a Silver.
A reveals an Ambassador.
A topdecks an Ambassador.
A plays 2 Silvers, a Gold and a Copper.
A buys and gains a Province.
A shuffles their deck.
A draws a Silver, an Ambassador, a Tunnel, an Ironmonger and a Governor.

Turn 19 - KAKEDASU
K plays a Governor.
K draws 2 Coppers and a Governor.
A draws a Necropolis.
K plays a Governor.
K shuffles their deck.
K draws a Copper and 2 Provinces.
A draws a Silver.
K plays a Necropolis.
K plays a Silver and 5 Coppers.
K buys and gains a Duchy.
K draws a Copper, an Ambassador, 2 Cultists and an Ironmonger.

Turn 20 - AJD
A plays an Ironmonger.
A draws an Ironmonger.
A reveals a Copper.
A discards a Copper.
A plays an Ironmonger.
A draws a Province.
A reveals a Province.
A discards a Province.
A draws a Province.
A plays a Governor.
A draws 2 Razes and a Governor.
K draws a Copper.
A plays a Raze.
A trashes an Ambassador.
A looks at a Silver, an Abandoned Mine and a Ruined Library.
A puts a Silver into their hand.
A discards an Abandoned Mine and a Ruined Library.
A plays a Governor.
A draws a Silver, a Gold and an Ironmonger.
K draws a Gold.
A plays an Ironmonger.
A draws a Tunnel.
A reveals a Raze.
A discards a Raze.
A plays a Raze.
A trashes a Raze.
A looks at a Gold and a Ruined Market.
A puts a Ruined Market into their hand.
A discards a Gold.
A plays a Ruined Market.
A plays 4 Silvers and a Gold.
A buys and gains a Province and a Tunnel.
A shuffles their deck.
A draws a Province, 2 Ironmongers, a Raze and a Governor.

(Possibly just a testament to the power of Ambassador—even in a Shelters game.)
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teamlyle

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Re: why cultist shouldn't be top 3 in the $5 list
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2017, 11:21:27 am »
+1

Wow, nice game.

Honestly, I feel as if your opponent played that one wrong. He/she only ever got 2 governors, one on turn 10 and the other on turn 14, and they didn't get played a whole lot since you bought the only Ambassador of the game. Meanwhile your deck kept getting better because you could clean it up while at the same time giving your opponent the ruins. Not to mention your opponent greened too early, maybe just as a "panic province" to demoralize you (province on turn 8?) Impressive play on your side, though.

As to the strength of Cultist, although I'm not nearly as high on the leaderboards as some others who have already posted here, I think it definitely deserves a spot on the top 3. Witch is pretty high up there, right? Cultist doesn't have quite as strong of an attack, but when it's stacked it not only gives out more junk cards, but is also a much better engine component than Witch late-game. I'd also say getting 2 ruins is much worse than getting one curse. Compare it to returning 2 coppers vs. returning one estate with Ambassador.

I actually had no idea that Cultist-BM was conventional wisdom. Sure, it's better than straight-up BM, and you can't ever draw your Cultists dead, but the Treasures actually anti-synergize with Cultist in the sense that the Cultists are less likely to collide. It's true that Cultist is terminal and sometimes treasures are the only payload. But if there's opportunity for the player who lost the Ruins split to trash, the player who won the Ruins split should definitely go for it as well.

TLDR: It's nice to not have Ruins.
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