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Jeebus

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World championship 2017
« on: July 05, 2017, 01:04:45 pm »
+1

Does anybody know if there will be one in 2017?

I have never been to GenCon (I don't live in the US), but it seems that it's been held at GenCon most years, is that true? (I have only attended one world championship, and it was at Essen in 2011 or something.)

I see that people have been able to qualify at GenCon itself. Does that mean that the person who wins this qualification is the US champion? Other countries of course have their own championships, where the winner/champion qualifies for the finals in the world championship. Can anybody from around the world participate and potentially become US champion? (Hmm, what if a national champion travels to GenCon, participates in the US tournament and also becomes US champion?? Or maybe national champions are forbidden to participate.)

I live in Mexico but I'm Norwegian, so I guess I could participate in the national championship in Mexico City (if I wanted to take a plane there). But unlike last year's Mexican championship, this one doesn't mention the world championship.

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Re: World championship 2017
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2017, 10:41:52 am »
+2

This year it will be held in Indianapolis.
In Japan, convention has already been held to obtain the competition,
Mu-Ron(yudai214) as the Japanese delegate will be played.
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yudai214

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Re: World championship 2017
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2017, 02:40:31 pm »
+2

I am looking forward to the tournament


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« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 02:50:00 pm by yudai214 »
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Re: World championship 2017
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2017, 01:49:43 pm »
+10

Winner: Adam Horton
2nd: We're not sure
3rd: Mexican champion
4th: yudai214

Shout-outs to https://twitter.com/logicwolf and https://twitter.com/yudai214 for keeping us updated throughout the finals! Better luck next time, yudai.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 02:02:22 pm by jsh357 »
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Re: World championship 2017
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2017, 09:11:16 pm »
0

I would be interested to know the name of the Mexican champion. And the 2nd place of course. Maybe Rio Grande has the info?
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 09:12:20 pm by Jeebus »
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Re: World championship 2017
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2017, 10:07:24 pm »
+4

Here is some info I acquired:

Entrants:
Pre-qualified players:
Jim Mounce (qualified in Adam's Cincinnati tournament)
Yudai (Japanese champion)
Pablo (Mexican champion)
Suzette Mariotti (qualified from Elestan's Detroit tournament in November; she was third to Ben King, who couldn't go to GenCon)

People who qualified at Gencon:
Adam Horton
Shaila (in the League)
Ryan Echternacht (also in the League)
William
Josh

After the initial two games of Swiss, the leaders were:
Adam, Ryan, Suzette, Yudai, and Josh.

Then they had a final Swiss round:
Game 1: Adam, Ryan, and Suzette (Adam > Suzette > Ryan)
Game 2: Yudai, Pablo, and Josh. (Pablo > Yudai > Josh)

Since Adam got first in his round and was already tied for first, he basically just won on pure points.

That is all I have for now. Others may weigh in after the dust settles.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 10:34:22 pm by jsh357 »
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Re: World championship 2017
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2017, 10:51:45 pm »
+1

I didn't make it to the semi-final on Saturday, but at least I have the honor of forcing Adam to replay one of his heats by making him lose on a coin flip tie.
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Jeebus

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Re: World championship 2017
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2017, 11:03:37 pm »
0

I see that I still don't understand how this championship works. This was part of my initial question. If someone qualifies a national championship, only the winner is allowed to go to the world championship (or runner-up if winner can't go etc, but just one person). But it seems like there were several Americans in this championship, why is that? The way I understood it was that there is one person from each country. That's also how it was in the world championship in Essen that I attended.

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Re: World championship 2017
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2017, 11:38:06 pm »
0

I see that I still don't understand how this championship works. This was part of my initial question. If someone qualifies a national championship, only the winner is allowed to go to the world championship (or runner-up if winner can't go etc, but just one person). But it seems like there were several Americans in this championship, why is that? The way I understood it was that there is one person from each country. That's also how it was in the world championship in Essen that I attended.

Perhaps due to the size of the American market, there is not a single U.S. championship, but rather multiple sanctioned subtournaments.  It's all up to Rio Grande, really.
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Re: World championship 2017
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2017, 11:59:24 pm »
0

Perhaps due to the size of the American market, there is not a single U.S. championship, but rather multiple sanctioned subtournaments.  It's all up to Rio Grande, really.

Seems pretty unfair. It's like one country being allowed to send several teams to the world cup of a sport just because that sport is especially popular there.
And it's not just that there are several tournaments in the US as opposed to one; it seems there are also at least one tournament where several players qualify, namely GenCon, where apparently 5 people qualified. The end result is of course that the chance of the world champion being from the US in a given year is many times bigger than any other country.

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Re: World championship 2017
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2017, 12:19:17 am »
+2

Seems pretty unfair. It's like one country being allowed to send several teams to the world cup of a sport just because that sport is especially popular there.
And it's not just that there are several tournaments in the US as opposed to one; it seems there are also at least one tournament where several players qualify, namely GenCon, where apparently 5 people qualified. The end result is of course that the chance of the world champion being from the US in a given year is many times bigger than any other country.

I'm not sure how much it matters what country the winner came from, really. When I heard of the results, I was thinking to myself something to the extent of "GJ Adam", and something like "GJ America" didn't even enter my mind.

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Re: World championship 2017
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2017, 12:34:27 am »
+1

Seems pretty unfair. It's like one country being allowed to send several teams to the world cup of a sport just because that sport is especially popular there.
And it's not just that there are several tournaments in the US as opposed to one; it seems there are also at least one tournament where several players qualify, namely GenCon, where apparently 5 people qualified. The end result is of course that the chance of the world champion being from the US in a given year is many times bigger than any other country.

You are asserting that "fair" means "every country has an equal representation in the finals".  By that logic, if Tuvalu has only one Dominion player, that player should automatically be given a a place in the finals, alongside those who had to fight their way through larger national fields of competitors.  That doesn't sound very fair, really.  Competitions do not have to be divided along national borders.  Even when they are, such as in the Olympics, countries with larger numbers of participants in a sport generally get to send larger teams.

I suspect that the truth of it, however, is that those were the only four sanctioned tournament representatives who actually made it to GenCon.  So they took those four, and then took the top five from GenCon to round out the nine players they needed to have a three-table finals field.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 12:40:50 am by Elestan »
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Re: World championship 2017
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2017, 07:20:50 am »
+2

When this tournament has qualifiers anyone in their respective countries can actually find out about and go to, I will worry more about it being 'fair.' As it is, it's hardly a showcase of the best players in a country; it's just a showcase of players who happen to live in/near areas where specific events happen to be advertised or who are able to go to GenCon. I am guessing that the reason there are no other countries represented is because no event contacted RGG and asked from those countries. Japan and Mexico apparently went that extra mile. Either that or they did but the players did not want to travel to Indianapolis.

If we want the event to be taken more seriously as a "world master's," it's probably best to get somebody who wants it to do that in charge of the thing. As we know from this interview, Jay himself isn't that big on tournaments, and is probably unlikely to spend a lot of his time on it. We should really be happy there is a big tournament at GenCon at all: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3489.0

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Jeebus

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Re: World championship 2017
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2017, 07:21:21 am »
0

I'm not sure how much it matters what country the winner came from, really. When I heard of the results, I was thinking to myself something to the extent of "GJ Adam", and something like "GJ America" didn't even enter my mind.

Because you know or know of Adam. Also, there were several people from the US, so it would make zero sense to think "GJ America". If it were between France, China, Bulgaria and Greenland in the finals, I doubt it would be the same.

You are asserting that "fair" means "every country has an equal representation in the finals".  By that logic, if Tuvalu has only one Dominion player, that player should automatically be given a a place in the finals, alongside those who had to fight their way through larger national fields of competitors.  That doesn't sound very fair, really.  Competitions do not have to be divided along national borders.  Even when they are, such as in the Olympics, countries with larger numbers of participants in a sport generally get to send larger teams.

I suspect that the truth of it, however, is that those were the only four sanctioned tournament representatives who actually made it to GenCon.  So they took those four, and then took the top five from GenCon to round out the nine players they needed to have a three-table finals field.

I'm not talking about "competitions", but world championships, and yes I think the general definition is that they are divided along national borders. There is probably, or should be, a minimum requirement for number of participants to qualify as a tournament. But if Tuvaly only has, let's say, four participants, then yes, they should get to send one. A smaller player base should mean less skilled players, both because of less people to play with and because of just a smaller group of potentially good players. In order to have a chance to win, that player has to be as good as the best players in the other participating countries (if the tournament format is good), and if s/he is, I don't see that it's unfair. At least it's as fair as a world championship can be. Giving equal ranking to national champions and people who happen to be at the venue and won some games is certainly not more fair.

That said, I understand the problem when only two foreign countries send champions. (It would probably be better to hold it in Europe to remedy that.) It's a more exciting tournament with 9 participants instead of 3. It's still more unfair.

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Re: World championship 2017
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2017, 09:10:35 am »
+3

This is mostly based on my hazy memories/impressions, but I think this somewhat accurately what has happened over the years.

I think 2011 was the first year to have a Dominion World Masters. This was held in Essen in Germany. With something like 16 people from as many different countries. For some reason that I don't really get. Jay wanted the next World Masters to be held in the US.

So in 2012 they held the tournament at Gen Con. With only one person from each country who qualified. There were like 8 people. And a ninth that was just standing in, providing a player (Brazil or something) that wasn't competing for the prize.

In 2013 I guess they wanted more people than just a few, so they had qualifiers at Gen Con to fill out the spots aside from the 1 person/country. Of course this meant that most of the people who qualified there were from USA. But not everyone. If you showed up you had the same possibility to qualify. Although I guess most people didn't travel there and hope they would.

2014 I don't know much about, but I think they had the same system as 2013, but with more tournaments counting as qualifiers in the US. Maybe other countries could've done this as well if they had contacted RGG?

I think 2015 was the same as 2014, but I'm not entirely sure.

2016 was kind of weird. They had the same system as 2013 (and most likely 14-15 as well). But they also had changed the format to include a semi finals day where all of the non country champions would duke it out to see who made it into the top. Since I wasn't able to play during the semis, I didn't even try to qualify. My wife who had time to play in the semis but didn't have to got to sit around and watch them play.

This is a system that rewards winning your national championship, but also fills out the spots. However you still have only a handful of players in the finals.

I have no idea how the tournament was run this year, but I can only assume it was somewhat similar to 2016.

From the World Masters I've attended or know people who attended. I think 2012 was the best year from a tournament perspective. Other than the phantom player. 2011 had some really weird seating stuff going on. And 2013 and onward was just like four tables of "swiss" and then if someone had more wins they won. And they played the same players twice instead of other players. Also, some seriously weird tie breakers made up on the fly.
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Jeebus

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Re: World championship 2017
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2017, 09:45:07 am »
0

From what I understand from your explanation, Lekkit, in 2016 the national champions didn't have to compete with all the non-country champions, just one of them. This seems fair, and shows how you can have a tournament with several players even with just a handful of national champions participating. In 2017 it seems that it was not like 2016 at all, but rather everybody against everybody on equal footing, including national champions, several US tournament winners, and several people who qualified (somehow) during GenCon.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 09:46:36 am by Jeebus »
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Elestan

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Re: World championship 2017
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2017, 09:52:46 am »
+3

You are asserting that "fair" means "every country has an equal representation in the finals".  By that logic, if Tuvalu has only one Dominion player, that player should automatically be given a a place in the finals, alongside those who had to fight their way through larger national fields of competitors.  That doesn't sound very fair, really.
I'm not talking about "competitions", but world championships, and yes I think the general definition is that they are divided along national borders.

This is essentially the same tension between region-based and population-based representation that is common in governmental structures.  Should each predefined region (state, country, etc.) get equal representation, or should each person (citizen, game player/owner, etc.) get equal representation?  Both approaches are fair or unfair (in opposite ways) depending on how much weight you want to place on regional (national) identity.  I like the idea of game competitions transcending national identities, so I favor the population-based method, but I can see how you could reach the other view.

In the end, if you want your region or country to be better represented, you should organize one or more tournaments in your part of the world, and contact Rio Grande about giving them official status.  As jsh357 said, Rio Grande isn't particularly fond of tournaments, so they are unlikely to pro-actively organize qualifiers at any level, national or otherwise.  If fans don't do it themselves, RGG will probably just hold the World Championships once a year somewhere (Usually GenCon, maybe Essen) without any pre-qualified players.
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Jeebus

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Re: World championship 2017
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2017, 10:31:27 am »
0

I'm not particularly interested in national identity actually, I just don't see how it could be done differently. How do you implement a population-based method? I mean, if we're not going to care about nationality, what are these populations that we're basing it on? You could base it on city instead of country, but that has several problems (like, what's a "city"), and also just shifts the issue since it's still regional, in essence the same as national.

Are you saying countries should be able to send a number of "representatives" based on their populations? Then we have to look at the whole world and see how much of the world population is each country's population. India and China would get a lot of delegates. So that we don't get a situation where many countries aren't allowed a single delegate, I guess we have to set the minimum to 1, meaning fairness eludes us anyway. I assume China and India never participated (maybe nobody there plays Dominion), but we have to factor in the possibility.

Or are you saying we just let the Dominion activity decide, so that if a country holds a bunch of tournaments, they should get more people in the championship? This would be an incentive for people to just hold a bunch of tournaments then. I guess we could have a rule that each person can only participate in one tournament, but it would be impossible to enforce unless we have a central register and require every organizer to submit a full list of participants, in any case a lot of work.

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Re: World championship 2017
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2017, 10:49:04 am »
0

Then 2017 seems like they did it 2013.
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Re: World championship 2017
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2017, 11:12:33 am »
+1

Jeebus sounds like a hating ass bitch who probably hasn't left his mama's house in years. Go out and see the sun you virgin. Next time don't speak unless spoken to.

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« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 11:43:42 am by theory »
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Re: World championship 2017
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2017, 11:23:42 am »
+1

Other than Chelsea which is either Tristan or a troll (who can promptly get banned), everyone needs to just calm down.
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Re: World championship 2017
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2017, 12:28:06 pm »
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Jeebus sounds like a hating ass bitch who probably hasn't left his mama's house in years. Go out and see the sun you virgin. Next time don't speak unless spoken to.

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FWIW I don't endorse the content of this post, I just upvoted it for the lulz.

EDIT: fixed phonepostingtypo
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 03:29:31 pm by Awaclus »
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Jeebus

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Re: World championship 2017
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2017, 02:50:44 pm »
+6

Other than Chelsea which is either Tristan or a troll (who can promptly get banned), everyone needs to just calm down.

Other than the banned user, I don't see anybody not expressing themselves calmly here.

(The funny thing is that when the banned poster posted, I was out checking out the solar eclipse. Since it wasn't a total eclipse here (sadly) I guess that counts as seeing the sun.)
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 02:52:03 pm by Jeebus »
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Re: World championship 2017
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2017, 03:25:35 pm »
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...either Tristan or a troll...
[-1] Repetitive
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Re: World championship 2017
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2017, 06:32:42 pm »
+5

As someone who was directly involved in running the GenCon event, I can shed a little light on it. I believe a fair of number of regional events were held nationally and even internationally. I had nothing to do with any of those. We were told there would be five who won those tournaments and had notified RGG that they were coming to play in the Sunday finals. On Thursday, Friday and Saturday there were a grand total of 15, two-hour pods set up and only the winner of those pods could move on to Saturday's semifinals. In 14 of the 15 pods, a player had to win 3 games to make it to the semis. In that other 1, just 2 wins made it. In 2 semifinals rounds the top 6 players were identified and another round was played to rank those 6 players. So we had enough players to get to the 9 we wanted. We promised the top 2 players from Saturday they would be in the finals. We told the others they were alternates. On Sunday only 4 of the 5 showed up for the finals from the winners of other tournaments. So we used 5 from Saturday.

On Sunday there were 3 rounds. In each was played on 3 identical setups. The point system was 5-3-1. If after 3 rounds, 1 or more people were tied for the most points, a final table would be set as a winner-take-all for the $1,000 first prize. But after 3 rounds, just one player had 13 points with two firsts and a second. I believe 7 of the 9 won at least 1 game. Congrats to the Adam Horton, who is an outstanding player.

The fact that he won by coming through the GenCon preliminaries and the semis in no way diminishes the accomplishment. None of the sets used on Sunday had been used for the preliminaries or the semis. I hope this clears some things up about the way this was handled.
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