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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $6 Cards  (Read 747 times)

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aku_chi

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The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $6 Cards
« on: July 02, 2017, 10:05:17 am »
+6

Taking trivialknot's suggestion, here is a thread where we can discuss the $6 cards in particular.

+ cards

32. =0 Adventurer
31. ▼1 Harem
30. ▲1 Farmland
29. NEW Conquest
28. NEW Annex
27. NEW Wedding
26. ▼1 Expand
25. ▼4 Hoard
24. ▲2 Bank
23. =0 Forge
22. ▲2 Prince
21. NEW Castles
20. =0 Training
19. ▼1 Nobles
18. NEW Royal Blacksmith
17. ▲1 Fairgrounds
16. ▼4 Hireling
15. =0 Altar
14. ▲2 Peddler
13. =0 Hunting Grounds
12. NEW Overlord
11. ▼2 Border Village
10. NEW Dominate
9. ▼2 Lost Arts
8. ▲1 Pathfinding
7. ▲5 Inheritance
6. =0 Grand Market
5. NEW City Quarter
4. NEW Fortune
3. =0 Goons
2. NEW Donate
1. =0 King's Court
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McGarnacle

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $6 Cards
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2017, 10:13:42 am »
0

I really think LA should be ahead of Pathfinding. I'm glad KC is not beaten out by Donate.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $6 Cards
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2017, 10:30:22 am »
+13

I'm glad KC is not beaten out by Donate.

I'm not. Donate is by far the strongest card-shaped thing in the game.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $6 Cards
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2017, 12:07:02 pm »
+1

^
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aku_chi

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $6 Cards
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2017, 12:42:34 pm »
+7

I'll call out the four biggest discrepancies between the community rankings and my personal list (that I've been updating over time; not the one I submitted).

Castles
Community Rank: 21
Personal Rank: 16

I have a better understanding of Castles now then when I ranked them in 2016.  Rushing Castles is almost never a thing.  Similar to Fairgrounds, Castles are a sizable chunk of VP that rivals Provinces, but with advantages.  Like Fairgrounds, they rarely come into play in engine mirrors that empty piles super fast, nor in low-economy sloggy money games.  But Castles are usually worth going for in most other kingdoms.  If there's a sustained greening period, and it's realistic to afford King's Castle, it's usually going to make sense for at least one of the players to go for Castles.  Like Fairgrounds, Castles encourage building a little longer (especially investing in more draw and/or sifting).  But Castles have a distinct advantage over Fairgrounds, in that the early Castles do help your deck in some way.  They're also cheap, and if you can gain 3+ Castles in one turn, you're in a really strong position to force your opponent to contest or lose to an overwhelmingly valuable King's Castle.  Castles are solid, and currently undervalued.

Fortune
Community Rank: 4
Personal Rank: 9

Fortune is super strong payload, but it's being overrated by the community.  First, there are stronger payload cards: King's Court (often), Goons, and Bridge, for example.  And unlike King's Court and Goons, Fortune is rarely worthwhile in decks that can't draw themselves.  Finally, there are kingdoms where Fortune would be great, but it doesn't make sense for either player to buy a Gladiator early, and the game will end before Fortune makes an impact.  Fortune is strong, and it's always worth looking out for, but there are more impactful $6+ cards.

Overlord
Community Rank: 12
Personal Rank: 4

Overlord is amazing!  What's wrong with you guys?  Overlord can always be purchased on turn 2, which means that you can always play the board's power $5 (e.g. Mountebank) on your second shuffle (unless Overlord misses the shuffle).  Opening Overlord is great with strong trashers that you don't necessarily want in your deck (e.g. Remake, Trading Post).  Opening Overlord is a great way to have a risk-free chance at a double-terminal opening (e.g. Ambassador, Swindler).  Overlord can be game-defining on boards where it's cost is relevant (e.g. Swindler, Knights).  But, in general, Overlord's flexibility is just super nifty.  Add a few Overlords into a village + terminal draw engine and you'll improve your reliability a bunch.  Overlord is great when a card's best and worst case are so different (e.g. Library, Conspirator).  And, of course, Overlord's cost is relevant outside of the opening; if the kingdom is full of important $5s, turn two subsequent $4 turns into an Overlord instead, or get some use out of those $2 hands after you trash down with Remake, Ambassador, Steward, or Temple.  Overlord is less good on boards with important Potion-cost cards, or boards where the key cards are likely to pile quickly, but those are a minority.  Overlord is great!

Dominate
Community Rank: 10
Personal Rank: 19

I haven't played with Dominate as much as most of these cards, but I haven't been super impressed.  Colonies are almost always relevant, because they add Platinum to the kingdom.  But there are a substantial portion of kingdoms where Dominate just isn't a realistic goal.  And even on boards where it is possible to buy Dominate, it doesn't always pay to build up to Dominate.  Unlike Colonies, Dominate pulls from the same pile as Provinces, so a player who goes after Provinces a few turns before a player goes for Dominate might end up winning the with 6 Provinces.  The Dominate player is at a greater disadvantage if there is a way to remodel into Provinces - or even mill them.  Dominate is worth a ton of points, so if the coin payload is strong enough, and building is fast enough, it will be the, *ehem, dominant source of VP.  But most of the time, this event can be ignored.
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terminalCopper

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $6 Cards
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2017, 01:20:29 pm »
+1

Dominate
  But most of the time, this event can be ignored.

I think that's totally wrong.

Compared to gaining two provinces, you need a grand market less to afford it, get three great halls on top and need a lab less to maintain reliability.

Thus, in classical engines going for two provs per turn it's kind of auto-loose if you skip dominate.

Furthermore, it makes weaker engines worth going for, because a BM deck rarely hits 14, especially if it has already started to green.


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aku_chi

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $6 Cards
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2017, 02:27:28 pm »
0

Thus, in classical engines going for two provs per turn it's kind of auto-loose if you skip dominate.

Indeed.  Dominate is very strong in kingdoms where, absent Dominate, you would build to buying two Provinces.  It's even better in kingdoms where you would do so except there is no +buy.  But I think such kingdoms comprise only a large minority of kingdoms.  Or maybe it's a small majority, and I've had atypical Dominate kingdoms.  I don't think Dominate is bad, by any means.  I think it's pretty similar in strength to Castles, Fairgrounds, and Nobles.

Furthermore, it makes weaker engines worth going for, because a BM deck rarely hits 14, especially if it has already started to green.

I'm skeptical of this.  Weaker engines rarely reach $14 reliably.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $6 Cards
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2017, 02:28:55 pm »
0

I don't know how you can say Dominate is skippable. TWO Dominates is the same as five Provinces - unless you fuck up the timing you can easily beat a traditional double Province engine with it.

Comparing it to Nobles or Castles is just foolish.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $6 Cards
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2017, 02:45:33 pm »
0

It's not that it is skippable.
More that it is unachievable on a lot of boards.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $6 Cards
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2017, 03:54:12 pm »
0

Dominate is a lot of points. I also agree on Overlord being underranked. That card is amazing.
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trivialknot

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $6 Cards
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2017, 04:14:01 pm »
0

Once I played a game where the only way to get Dominate was to use Forum to sift for a hand of 5 gold (with a gold gainer for support).  I thought that would be too difficult to be worthwhile.  I got crushed.  Now whenever there's even a possibility to buy Dominate, I seriously consider it.  I would consider it even if the only enabler is Candlestick Maker, or Treasure Map, or Smithy plus a trasher.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $6 Cards
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2017, 06:12:56 pm »
+1

Fortune is super strong payload, but it's being overrated by the community.  First, there are stronger payload cards: King's Court (often), Goons, and Bridge, for example.  And unlike King's Court and Goons, Fortune is rarely worthwhile in decks that can't draw themselves.  Finally, there are kingdoms where Fortune would be great, but it doesn't make sense for either player to buy a Gladiator early, and the game will end before Fortune makes an impact.  Fortune is strong, and it's always worth looking out for, but there are more impactful $6+ cards.

I actually agree with the community and disagree with you on all of these, but I'll just address this one because I want to avoid writing a tl;dr wall of text. PPE: In retrospect, I still ended up writing a tl;dr wall of text so I'll just address the part about Bridge and delete the rest.

Bridge is clearly not as strong as Fortune and I think Bridge is severely underrated by most people. When the conditions are ideal, Bridge is significantly more explosive than Fortune, but usually the conditions are not ideal since both of these cards will make you want to build the engine no matter how not ideal the conditions are. And Fortune is super much better at dealing with less than ideal conditions because it's non-terminal, doesn't require you to win a split, and the payload per stop card slot taken grows linearly rather than exponentially, which is better when you can only afford to have so many stop cards in your deck. Basically, a single Bridge won't do you much good, but a single Fortune will, and sometimes you can only get one.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $6 Cards
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2017, 11:18:43 am »
0

I have lot of disagreements with this list.

First grand market, seriously rank 6? I would put it between hunting grounds and border village. It is a slow way to add a payload for weaker engines. With stronger engine you couldn't spend turns adding few grand markets as when you could double province opponent would double province for two turns and threatens getting two more provinces next turn. Events enable strong engine which makes them better than grand market. It is worse than training which is easier to get and one buy adds 5-6 coins depending on split.

Fortune and city quarter are same case of being worse than events. Lost art/pfinding and inheritance are better on building engine than these. They would go between lost arts and training.

Then training is underrated, should be above border village. Its close to fortune with adding payload if you take into account that you could use it earlier with lower opportunity cost.

Last one is moving conquest above hoard, its quite strong on moneyish boards, especially with silver gainers and sometimes allows megaturn.
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faust

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $6 Cards
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2017, 02:32:30 am »
0

It is worse than training which is easier to get and one buy adds 5-6 coins depending on split.
There are flaws with this argument.

1) It's not certain that there is a card in the game that you want to have more than like 3 copies of.
2) Only adding payload after splitting a pile means you will only get the benefit at a pretty late stage in the game.

Of course, in the right condition, Training is great, but GM is a lot more versatile, not to mention that sometimes it's the only +buy.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

luser

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $6 Cards
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2017, 04:23:07 am »
0

It is worse than training which is easier to get and one buy adds 5-6 coins depending on split.
There are flaws with this argument.

1) It's not certain that there is a card in the game that you want to have more than like 3 copies of.
2) Only adding payload after splitting a pile means you will only get the benefit at a pretty late stage in the game.

Of course, in the right condition, Training is great, but GM is a lot more versatile, not to mention that sometimes it's the only +buy.

These are invalid arguments as one does comparison what would happen if one replaced grand market by training.

1. In that boards you shouldn't get grand  market (unless its crossroads no cantrips edge case). With that restriction you don't have time of adding multiple grand markets as you already assembled engine with few pieces and could end it. With training on village/cantrip buying more is better as you improve reliability and economy by piling these. There is almost no risk of three piling as other piles have 4 cards left.

2. Is irrelevant for comparison. You play same strategy with grand market/training until point you get to buy first gm where you buy training. That would give better economy with training. That you don't have to do it and buy training earlier or not buy so many silvers only makes stronger.

For buys often one wishes to have herbalist as one buy instead of grand market as it comes into action sooner. GM helps with three piling but you need to also take into account how rare having gm as only buy vs training on board with no buy.
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Q

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $6 Cards
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2017, 05:52:58 am »
+1

If some cards/events were always better than others Dominion would be a nearly solved, boring game.
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faust

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $6 Cards
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2017, 07:12:08 am »
0

These are invalid arguments as one does comparison what would happen if one replaced grand market by training.
If one replaced Grand Market by Training, it would no longer be a valid kingdom.

1. In that boards you shouldn't get grand  market (unless its crossroads no cantrips edge case). With that restriction you don't have time of adding multiple grand markets as you already assembled engine with few pieces and could end it. With training on village/cantrip buying more is better as you improve reliability and economy by piling these. There is almost no risk of three piling as other piles have 4 cards left.
I disagree. Not every enigne has a Village, or cantrips for that matter, and the ones that do not are not an edge case. One of the strength of Grand Marekt is enabling engines in that environment, and Training does not do that at all. That is one reason GM should be higher: It changes which strategy you should follow. With Training, you just do what you would have been doing anyway and it gets a bit better.

2. Is irrelevant for comparison. You play same strategy with grand market/training until point you get to buy first gm where you buy training. That would give better economy with training. That you don't have to do it and buy training earlier or not buy so many silvers only makes stronger.
A single Training may give better economy than a single GM, but that completely ignores the fact that you can buy more than 1 GM, whereas the potential economy added by Training is much more limited.

For buys often one wishes to have herbalist as one buy instead of grand market as it comes into action sooner.
These are invalid arguments as one does comparison what would happen if one replaced grand market by training.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.
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