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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: The rest  (Read 2558 times)

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Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: The rest
« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2017, 11:18:54 pm »
0


Inheritance is higher than Pathfinding on the 6+ list, but Pathfinding is higher on the event list. weird. (I have Inheritance #1 on events and #6 on 6+.)

Hm, that is indeed weird. Let me look soon if I messed something up as this shouldn't happen at all.
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gloures

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: The rest
« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2017, 11:51:05 pm »
0


Inheritance is higher than Pathfinding on the 6+ list, but Pathfinding is higher on the event list. weird. (I have Inheritance #1 on events and #6 on 6+.)

Hm, that is indeed weird. Let me look soon if I messed something up as this shouldn't happen at all.

One possible cause for this is that maybe people who rank Inheritance over Pathfinding put, on average, a bigger gap between them in the 6+ list than the people who rank them the other way around...
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: The rest
« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2017, 10:16:32 am »
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Surprised Familiar is ahead of Vineyard. Glad to see Possession and Golem switch places. Golem is just such a cool card, too bad it kinda sucks.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: The rest
« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2017, 07:55:04 am »
+15

Surprised Familiar is ahead of Vineyard.

Surprised Familiar
Action–Attack
$3P

+1 Card
+1 Action
…Oh! Hi there, sorry, I wasn't ready. No, it's okay, just give me a sec. All right, here we go:
Each other player gains a Curse. There, that should do it.
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Triumph44

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: The rest
« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2017, 08:08:33 pm »
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Because Donate can be bought with debt and King's Court cannot be, I'd still have KC over Donate even though there are games where KC is skippable - in a game with Donate, all players will almost certainly use it at some point, but the race to KC in certain games and then lining it up with other actions can really swing things.  It's unlikely that you will ever lose a game just because someone Donated more optimally than you, but you will lose games when your opponent manages to line up his KC with his Swindler/Mountebank/Cultist whatever before you. 

I suppose it's just a question of what the rankings mean.
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traces Around

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: The rest
« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2017, 08:24:49 pm »
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It's unlikely that you will ever lose a game just because someone Donated more optimally than you

This is basically how all Donate games are lost.

Also, if you don't buy Donate on a board that it is on, you lose (unless opponent does something stupid), meanwhile there are boards where buying KC is losing.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2017, 08:26:28 pm by traces Around »
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Triumph44

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: The rest
« Reply #31 on: July 07, 2017, 12:17:37 am »
+2

It's unlikely that you will ever lose a game just because someone Donated more optimally than you

This is basically how all Donate games are lost.

Also, if you don't buy Donate on a board that it is on, you lose (unless opponent does something stupid), meanwhile there are boards where buying KC is losing.

That seems awfully glib on Donate - you and your opponent may not even be pursuing the same strategy, Dominion being what it is, not to mention the large mitigating factor of shuffle luck which can still manifest itself even after a Donate.
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Titandrake

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: The rest
« Reply #32 on: July 07, 2017, 12:29:21 am »
+2

It's unlikely that you will ever lose a game just because someone Donated more optimally than you

This is basically how all Donate games are lost.

Also, if you don't buy Donate on a board that it is on, you lose (unless opponent does something stupid), meanwhile there are boards where buying KC is losing.

That seems awfully glib on Donate - you and your opponent may not even be pursuing the same strategy, Dominion being what it is, not to mention the large mitigating factor of shuffle luck which can still manifest itself even after a Donate.

Sure, there's still shuffle luck, but what you just said applies to any card/event - Goons, King's Court, etc. So it's not a good argument against Donate in particular.

When people pursue different strategies, it's because they don't agree on which one the right one is. Donate has a habit of turning even small mistakes into decisive ones because it chops out massive amounts of shuffle luck.
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O

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: The rest
« Reply #33 on: July 07, 2017, 03:00:24 am »
0

It's unlikely that you will ever lose a game just because someone Donated more optimally than you

This is basically how all Donate games are lost.

Also, if you don't buy Donate on a board that it is on, you lose (unless opponent does something stupid), meanwhile there are boards where buying KC is losing.

That seems awfully glib on Donate - you and your opponent may not even be pursuing the same strategy, Dominion being what it is, not to mention the large mitigating factor of shuffle luck which can still manifest itself even after a Donate.

Sure, there's still shuffle luck, but what you just said applies to any card/event - Goons, King's Court, etc. So it's not a good argument against Donate in particular.

When people pursue different strategies, it's because they don't agree on which one the right one is. Donate has a habit of turning even small mistakes into decisive ones because it chops out massive amounts of shuffle luck.

It almost certainly does on net, but by how much really? It removes lots of later shuffle luck but the single highest % "shuffle luck" occurrence is the opening shuffle, and donate very often can make 4-3 vs 3-4 and 5-2 vs 2-5 relevant shuffle luck, while normally it isn't applicable.
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grrgrrgrr

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: The rest
« Reply #34 on: July 07, 2017, 01:01:19 pm »
0

I probably haven't played enough empires, but why are Fortune and City Quarter higher rated than Grand Market?
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Jacob marley

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: The rest
« Reply #35 on: July 07, 2017, 01:49:17 pm »
0

Both have extremely powerful effects, and don't have the awkward no copper restriction on GM.  Especially if there are good engine components and trashing, City Quarter is an absolute must for drawing your deck, then you have 2 actions to play all the actions you just drew.  Name another card that could let you draw up to 4 cards as a first play (more with beginninge of turn handsize increasers) then gives you two actions...

And who doesn't want to double their money.  The hope of doing so is what keeps all the casinos in business.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: The rest
« Reply #36 on: July 07, 2017, 02:32:43 pm »
+1

I probably haven't played enough empires, but why are Fortune and City Quarter higher rated than Grand Market?

Because City Quarter is way overrated and Fortune is extremely strong while Grand Market isn't super amazing.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: The rest
« Reply #37 on: July 07, 2017, 08:15:41 pm »
+1

I probably haven't played enough empires, but why are Fortune and City Quarter higher rated than Grand Market?

Because City Quarter is way overrated and Fortune is extremely strong while Grand Market isn't super amazing.

I agree with this.
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aku_chi

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: The rest
« Reply #38 on: August 28, 2017, 02:01:19 pm »
0

Links to threads with some additional discussion, in case people are following links from the pinned thread:

The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $6 Cards
The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: Landmarks
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: The rest
« Reply #39 on: August 28, 2017, 10:43:05 pm »
0

I probably haven't played enough empires, but why are Fortune and City Quarter higher rated than Grand Market?

Because City Quarter is way overrated and Fortune is extremely strong while Grand Market isn't super amazing.

I agree with this.

There have been several boards where I ignored Fortune lately. It's good boosting economy, but City Quarter is a crazy good engine card. You draw everything and get all the actions.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: The rest
« Reply #40 on: August 29, 2017, 07:47:41 am »
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There have been several boards where I ignored Fortune lately. It's good boosting economy, but City Quarter is a crazy good engine card. You draw everything and get all the actions.

Fortune is not good for boosting economy, it's one of the strongest payloads in the game. If it's an engine board, you can ignore Fortune basically only if Bridge or Bridge Troll is in it, and even then it's not obviously the case that you should.

Without trashing, City Quarter is hardly as good as Village. It doesn't enable an engine if an engine wasn't already possible.

Chris is me

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: The rest
« Reply #41 on: August 29, 2017, 08:41:31 am »
0

There have been several boards where I ignored Fortune lately. It's good boosting economy, but City Quarter is a crazy good engine card. You draw everything and get all the actions.

Fortune is not good for boosting economy, it's one of the strongest payloads in the game. If it's an engine board, you can ignore Fortune basically only if Bridge or Bridge Troll is in it, and even then it's not obviously the case that you should.

Without trashing, City Quarter is hardly as good as Village. It doesn't enable an engine if an engine wasn't already possible.

This is among the hollowest of statements. Village doesn't enable an engine unless an engine was already possible. Smithy doesn't enable an engine unless an engine was already possible. Highway doesn't enable an engine unless an engine was already possible. See, I can do this all day.

City Quarter is not good with no trashing whatsoever. Correct, it is not always good. When it is good, it's generally much better than Lost City - of similar draw power to Scrying Pool or Madman. That's certainly more valuable than Grand Market's ceiling, and it certainly works on boards as the only way to increase handsize, and sometimes as the only Village, if other conditions are right. It is an engine component, which is not an entire engine by itself, but it can be the key Village and/or draw card, so the entire engine doesn't need to be there like you say.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 08:43:06 am by Chris is me »
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McGarnacle

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: The rest
« Reply #42 on: August 29, 2017, 08:55:24 am »
+2

There have been several boards where I ignored Fortune lately. It's good boosting economy, but City Quarter is a crazy good engine card. You draw everything and get all the actions.

Fortune is not good for boosting economy, it's one of the strongest payloads in the game. If it's an engine board, you can ignore Fortune basically only if Bridge or Bridge Troll is in it, and even then it's not obviously the case that you should.

Without trashing, City Quarter is hardly as good as Village. It doesn't enable an engine if an engine wasn't already possible.

This is among the hollowest of statements. Village doesn't enable an engine unless an engine was already possible. Smithy doesn't enable an engine unless an engine was already possible. Highway doesn't enable an engine unless an engine was already possible. See, I can do this all day.

City Quarter is not good with no trashing whatsoever. Correct, it is not always good. When it is good, it's generally much better than Lost City - of similar draw power to Scrying Pool or Madman. That's certainly more valuable than Grand Market's ceiling, and it certainly works on boards as the only way to increase handsize, and sometimes as the only Village, if other conditions are right. It is an engine component, which is not an entire engine by itself, but it can be the key Village and/or draw card, so the entire engine doesn't need to be there like you say.

We have all drawn City Quarter with no action cards. Plus if your action density is high enough to really draw a lot, you could be using something else for draw.
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Chris is me

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: The rest
« Reply #43 on: August 29, 2017, 09:04:57 am »
+2

There have been several boards where I ignored Fortune lately. It's good boosting economy, but City Quarter is a crazy good engine card. You draw everything and get all the actions.

Fortune is not good for boosting economy, it's one of the strongest payloads in the game. If it's an engine board, you can ignore Fortune basically only if Bridge or Bridge Troll is in it, and even then it's not obviously the case that you should.

Without trashing, City Quarter is hardly as good as Village. It doesn't enable an engine if an engine wasn't already possible.

This is among the hollowest of statements. Village doesn't enable an engine unless an engine was already possible. Smithy doesn't enable an engine unless an engine was already possible. Highway doesn't enable an engine unless an engine was already possible. See, I can do this all day.

City Quarter is not good with no trashing whatsoever. Correct, it is not always good. When it is good, it's generally much better than Lost City - of similar draw power to Scrying Pool or Madman. That's certainly more valuable than Grand Market's ceiling, and it certainly works on boards as the only way to increase handsize, and sometimes as the only Village, if other conditions are right. It is an engine component, which is not an entire engine by itself, but it can be the key Village and/or draw card, so the entire engine doesn't need to be there like you say.

We have all drawn City Quarter with no action cards. Plus if your action density is high enough to really draw a lot, you could be using something else for draw.

"You could be using something else" is an argument against the use of any card, ever, that doesn't actually apply because kingdoms are restricted in size.

I'm not saying City Quarter is always the best card nor am I saying it's a one piece engine. It's just really good at what it does, it's reasonably priced (really), and it's a Village too. Obviously if there are easier togain components that cover all your needs you get those instead. Whatever.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 09:06:40 am by Chris is me »
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: The rest
« Reply #44 on: August 29, 2017, 10:07:10 am »
0

There have been several boards where I ignored Fortune lately. It's good boosting economy, but City Quarter is a crazy good engine card. You draw everything and get all the actions.

Fortune is not good for boosting economy, it's one of the strongest payloads in the game. If it's an engine board, you can ignore Fortune basically only if Bridge or Bridge Troll is in it, and even then it's not obviously the case that you should.

Without trashing, City Quarter is hardly as good as Village. It doesn't enable an engine if an engine wasn't already possible.

This is among the hollowest of statements. Village doesn't enable an engine unless an engine was already possible. Smithy doesn't enable an engine unless an engine was already possible. Highway doesn't enable an engine unless an engine was already possible. See, I can do this all day.

City Quarter is not good with no trashing whatsoever. Correct, it is not always good. When it is good, it's generally much better than Lost City - of similar draw power to Scrying Pool or Madman. That's certainly more valuable than Grand Market's ceiling, and it certainly works on boards as the only way to increase handsize, and sometimes as the only Village, if other conditions are right. It is an engine component, which is not an entire engine by itself, but it can be the key Village and/or draw card, so the entire engine doesn't need to be there like you say.

It's not a hollow statement if you don't misinterpret it on purpose. Village and Smithy are both much more likely to enable an engine than City Quarter because they are cheaper and less situational. You don't go to lengths to build the engine just because City Quarter is there. You do go to lengths to build the engine just because Fortune is there.

"You could be using something else" is an argument against the use of any card, ever, that doesn't actually apply because kingdoms are restricted in size.

It applies to City Quarter much more than it does to Fortune.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 10:08:37 am by Awaclus »
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trivialknot

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: The rest
« Reply #45 on: August 29, 2017, 01:05:47 pm »
+4

One thing I hear people say on streams is "Fortune is super good, so I better pick up a Gladiator".  And that's kind of like saying "Trashing is super good, so I better open with Bishop."

I dunno, I think players will eventually realize Gladiator isn't that good, and this will cause Fortune to show up less often, and later in the game.  And then Fortune just won't be as good.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: The rest
« Reply #46 on: August 29, 2017, 01:26:19 pm »
0

One thing I hear people say on streams is "Fortune is super good, so I better pick up a Gladiator".  And that's kind of like saying "Trashing is super good, so I better open with Bishop."

That is true to an extent, but Gladiator is actually a decent card on its own in a lot of early game situations (just like Bishop is a decent card for the VP), and being able to control when Fortune gets revealed is not nothing.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: The rest
« Reply #47 on: August 29, 2017, 01:44:47 pm »
0

One thing I hear people say on streams is "Fortune is super good, so I better pick up a Gladiator".  And that's kind of like saying "Trashing is super good, so I better open with Bishop."

I dunno, I think players will eventually realize Gladiator isn't that good, and this will cause Fortune to show up less often, and later in the game.  And then Fortune just won't be as good.

Gladiator is just fine. Hitting the $3 with it is very nice for a cheap terminal, and all too often the cost of using that terminal space early is very worth it.
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Jacob marley

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: The rest
« Reply #48 on: August 29, 2017, 03:12:51 pm »
0

If your payload is treasure cards, City Quarter looses a lot of its punch and you are better off with other draw.  If you have action card payload and can trash your starting cards, City Quarter becomes a monster.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: The rest
« Reply #49 on: August 31, 2017, 11:50:03 pm »
+1

I wonder what a bot that just bot the top action card on these qvist lists and then greened at some point would be ranked.
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