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Author Topic: Knight + 2 Royal Carriages  (Read 289 times)

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Ingix

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Knight + 2 Royal Carriages
« on: June 28, 2017, 09:02:01 am »
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This is about a rules bug report on dominion.games (http://forum.shuffleit.nl/index.php?topic=1920.0) where I'm unsure if it really is a bug or not.

A Knight is played, with 2 Royal Carriages (RC) on the player's Tavern mat. The Knight survives its own effect, so the player calls RC#1 to replay it. This time, the Knight gets trashed because its effect trashed another Knight. Can now RC#2 be called to replay the Knight again?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Knight + 2 Royal Carriages
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2017, 09:11:11 am »
+2

No, it can't. Royal Carriage can't be called on a card no longer in play. Says so right on Royal Carriage.
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LaLight

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Re: Knight + 2 Royal Carriages
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2017, 09:12:00 am »
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This is about a rules bug report on dominion.games (http://forum.shuffleit.nl/index.php?topic=1920.0) where I'm unsure if it really is a bug or not.

A Knight is played, with 2 Royal Carriages (RC) on the player's Tavern mat. The Knight survives its own effect, so the player calls RC#1 to replay it. This time, the Knight gets trashed because its effect trashed another Knight. Can now RC#2 be called to replay the Knight again?

No. RC specifically refers to "if action is still in play". Trashed knight isn't there

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GendoIkari

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Re: Knight + 2 Royal Carriages
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2017, 09:16:05 am »
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Is there a rule that explains why you can't call 2 Royal Carriages both immediately after resolving an action (before playing it a second time)? I assume you can't, but I'm not sure why....
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werothegreat

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Re: Knight + 2 Royal Carriages
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2017, 09:18:44 am »
+2

Is there a rule that explains why you can't call 2 Royal Carriages both immediately after resolving an action (before playing it a second time)? I assume you can't, but I'm not sure why....

Because you do things one at a time
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Ingix

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Re: Knight + 2 Royal Carriages
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2017, 09:20:03 am »
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The counter-argument to "it doesn't work" is that the wording or Royal Carriage says

Directly after you finish playing an Action card, if it's still in play, you may call this to replay that Action.

What is unclear to me is if the bold part is part of the trigger condition or the triggered effect. If it is part of the triggered effect, then "it doesn't work" is true. If it is part of the trigger condition, however, then it should work, because both Royal Carriages triggered on a Knight that was in play when its effect ended.
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werothegreat

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Re: Knight + 2 Royal Carriages
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2017, 09:35:53 am »
+2

The counter-argument to "it doesn't work" is that the wording or Royal Carriage says

Directly after you finish playing an Action card, if it's still in play, you may call this to replay that Action.

What is unclear to me is if the bold part is part of the trigger condition or the triggered effect. If it is part of the triggered effect, then "it doesn't work" is true. If it is part of the trigger condition, however, then it should work, because both Royal Carriages triggered on a Knight that was in play when its effect ended.

But again, you can only do one thing at a time.  You can't call 2 Royal Carriages simultaneously.  By the time you're ready to call the 2nd one, the original card is no longer in play, and the trigger no longer applies.
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Ingix

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Re: Knight + 2 Royal Carriages
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2017, 10:02:36 am »
+1

Who says we are not in the "An action was resolved that is still in play" timing bubble that was created when the Knight resolved? Then we do all the things that apply to that bubble, like calling Royal Carriages.

I'm not saying that this is a good or even obvious interpretation of the card. But to me it seems a *possible* one.

The notion that "a trigger no longer applies" makes no sense to me. Some effect happened and a card triggered or it did not trigger. If it did not trigger, good. If it did trigger, then the effect definitely happens, sometime (maybe after a long time if other things also triggered).

So again my question is: Why is everybody treating "if it's still in play" as part of the triggered effect and not part of the trigger condition? It is positioned right in the middle between the clauses that are obviously part of the condition ("Directly after you finish playing an Action card") and the effect ("you may call this to replay that Action"). I see no preference either way from the formulation of the card, so both are (to me) possible interpretations of the text.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Knight + 2 Royal Carriages
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2017, 10:41:58 am »
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Who says we are not in the "An action was resolved that is still in play" timing bubble that was created when the Knight resolved? Then we do all the things that apply to that bubble, like calling Royal Carriages.

I'm not saying that this is a good or even obvious interpretation of the card. But to me it seems a *possible* one.

The notion that "a trigger no longer applies" makes no sense to me. Some effect happened and a card triggered or it did not trigger. If it did not trigger, good. If it did trigger, then the effect definitely happens, sometime (maybe after a long time if other things also triggered).

So again my question is: Why is everybody treating "if it's still in play" as part of the triggered effect and not part of the trigger condition? It is positioned right in the middle between the clauses that are obviously part of the condition ("Directly after you finish playing an Action card") and the effect ("you may call this to replay that Action"). I see no preference either way from the formulation of the card, so both are (to me) possible interpretations of the text.

This feels like it makes sense to me based on the way reactions work. When an opponent plays an attack card, you can do all sorts of things, one after another, all because the trigger of "an opponent plays an attack" has happened. It doesn't matter that after you used your first reaction, it's no longer immediately after an attack card was played.

But I'm not disagreeing with the rule given by others. I think the logical interpretation must be that "if it is still in play"  adds a restriction that goes beyond the way reactions work. Maybe because it has an "if" clause. If it were just a restriction on the effect, and not a restriction on the trigger, then you would be allowed to call the second Royal Carriage which would then fail to do anything. I assume you are not allowed to call it in that case. Meaning there's an (unwritten?) rule in play that makes the "if" be checked every time you want to react.

I would think of it kind of like MTG's "intervening if" clauses. MTG has a weird thing where a triggered ability like "at the beginning of your upkeep, if you have 40 or more life, you win the game" doesn't even trigger if you don't have 40 or more life. Based only on the card wording, you would think that it would trigger at the beginning of your upkeep, and then do nothing when it resolves. But instead, it never even triggers. Because there's an "if" in the place that it is. If the card instead said "at the beginning of your upkeep, you win the game, unless you have less than 40 life", then the trigger would still trigger, and just do nothing when it resolves.
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Awaclus

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Re: Knight + 2 Royal Carriages
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2017, 10:52:33 am »
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I agree that the card doesn't make it clear. But the FAQ does.

Ingix

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Re: Knight + 2 Royal Carriages
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2017, 03:19:38 am »
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Thanks for all the answers and explanations. I'll post the result from this discussion (with a link) in the original thread on the forum of the online game. [No longer necessary, see below]

EDIT: Donald X. has replied in the original thread with the same answer given here: The ability to call the second RC in the circumstances given is a bug.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 03:24:53 am by Ingix »
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