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Omastar68

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Monument-BM?
« on: June 19, 2017, 09:58:53 pm »
+2

kingdom
Sage
Gardens
Monument
Tournament
Ranger
Butcher
Venture
Duke
Altar
Border Village

Lost Arts

Code: [Select]
H starts with 7 Coppers and 3 Estates.
H shuffles their deck.
H draws 5 cards.
O starts with 7 Coppers and 3 Estates.
O shuffles their deck.
O draws 4 Coppers and an Estate.

Turn 1 - Hangar18
H plays 4 Coppers.
H buys and gains a Monument.
H draws 5 cards.

Turn 1 - Omastar68
O plays 4 Coppers.
O buys and gains a Monument.
O draws 3 Coppers and 2 Estates.

Turn 2 - Hangar18
H plays 3 Coppers.
H buys and gains a Silver.
H shuffles their deck.
H draws 5 cards.

Turn 2 - Omastar68
O plays 3 Coppers.
O buys and gains a Silver.
O shuffles their deck.
O draws 3 Coppers, a Silver and an Estate.

Turn 3 - Hangar18
H plays 4 Coppers and a Silver.
H buys a Lost Arts.
H moves +Action token to the Monument pile.
H draws 5 cards.

Turn 3 - Omastar68
O plays 3 Coppers and a Silver.
O buys and gains a Butcher.
O draws 2 Coppers, 2 Estates and a Monument.

Turn 4 - Hangar18
H plays a Monument.
H gets +1 Action (from Lost Arts)
H gets 1 VP.
H plays 3 Coppers.
H buys and gains a Butcher.
H shuffles their deck.
H draws 5 cards.

Turn 4 - Omastar68
O plays a Monument.
O gets 1 VP.
O plays 2 Coppers.
O buys and gains a Tournament.
O shuffles their deck.
O draws 3 Coppers, an Estate and a Butcher.

Turn 5 - Hangar18
H plays 3 Coppers.
H buys and gains a Sage.
H draws 5 cards.

Turn 5 - Omastar68
O plays a Butcher.
O trashes an Estate.
O gains a Sage.
O plays 3 Coppers.
O buys and gains a Sage.
O draws 4 Coppers and a Tournament.

Turn 6 - Hangar18
H plays a Monument.
H gets +1 Action (from Lost Arts)
H gets 1 VP.
H plays 3 Coppers.
H buys and gains a Monument.
H shuffles their deck.
H draws 5 cards.

Turn 6 - Omastar68
O plays a Tournament.
O draws a Silver.
O plays 4 Coppers and a Silver.
O buys and gains a Province.
O shuffles their deck.
O draws 2 Coppers, 2 Estates and a Monument.

Turn 7 - Hangar18
H plays a Butcher.
H trashes a Sage.
H gains a Monument.
H plays 2 Coppers and a Silver.
H buys and gains a Monument.
H draws 5 cards.

Turn 7 - Omastar68
O plays a Monument.
O gets 1 VP.
O plays 2 Coppers.
O buys and gains a Tournament.
O draws 2 Coppers, a Tournament, a Sage and a Butcher.

Turn 8 - Hangar18
H plays a Monument.
H gets +1 Action (from Lost Arts)
H gets 1 VP.
H plays a Monument.
H gets +1 Action (from Lost Arts)
H gets 1 VP.
H plays 2 Coppers.
H buys and gains an Altar.
H draws 5 cards.

Turn 8 - Omastar68
O plays a Sage.
O reveals a Copper and a Silver.
O puts a Silver into their hand.
O discards a Copper.
O plays a Tournament.
O draws a Sage.
O plays a Sage.
O reveals 2 Coppers and a Province.
O puts a Province into their hand.
O discards 2 Coppers.
O plays a Butcher.
O trashes a Silver.
O gains a Sage.
O plays 2 Coppers.
O buys and gains a Sage.
O shuffles their deck.
O draws a Copper, a Tournament, 2 Sages and a Butcher.

Turn 9 - Hangar18
H plays 3 Coppers.
H buys and gains a Monument.
H shuffles their deck.
H draws 5 cards.

Turn 9 - Omastar68
O plays a Sage.
O reveals a Copper and a Province.
O puts a Province into their hand.
O discards a Copper.
O plays a Sage.
O reveals an Estate and a Tournament.
O puts a Tournament into their hand.
O discards an Estate.
O plays a Tournament.
O reveals a Province.
O discards a Province.
O gains a Trusty Steed.
O draws a Trusty Steed.
O plays a Tournament.
O draws a Copper.
O plays a Trusty Steed.
O draws a Monument and a Sage.
O plays a Monument.
O gets 1 VP.
O plays a Sage.
O reveals 2 Coppers and a Sage.
O puts a Sage into their hand.
O discards 2 Coppers.
O plays a Sage.
O reveals 2 Coppers and an Estate.
O shuffles their deck.
O reveals a Copper and a Province.
O puts a Province into their hand.
O discards 3 Coppers and an Estate.
O plays a Butcher.
O plays 2 Coppers.
O buys and gains a Border Village.
O gains a Ranger.
O shuffles their deck.
O draws 3 Coppers, an Estate and a Sage.

Turn 10 - Hangar18
H plays a Monument.
H gets +1 Action (from Lost Arts)
H gets 1 VP.
H plays an Altar.
H trashes an Estate.
H gains a Monument.
H plays 2 Coppers.
H buys and gains a Monument.
H draws 5 cards.

Turn 10 - Omastar68
O plays a Sage.
O reveals a Butcher.
O puts a Butcher into their hand.
O plays a Butcher.
O trashes an Estate.
O gains a Sage.
O plays 3 Coppers.
O buys and gains a Sage.
O draws 2 Coppers, a Province, a Tournament and a Sage.

Turn 11 - Hangar18
H plays a Monument.
H gets +1 Action (from Lost Arts)
H gets 1 VP.
H plays a Monument.
H gets +1 Action (from Lost Arts)
H gets 1 VP.
H plays a Monument.
H gets +1 Action (from Lost Arts)
H gets 1 VP.
H plays a Butcher.
H plays a Silver.
H buys and gains a Province.
H draws 5 cards.

Turn 11 - Omastar68
O plays a Tournament.
O reveals a Province.
O discards a Province.
O gains a Followers.
O draws a Followers.
O plays a Sage.
O reveals a Monument.
O puts a Monument into their hand.
O plays a Followers.
O draws a Trusty Steed and a Sage.
O gains an Estate.
H gains a Curse.
H discards a card and a Copper.
O plays 2 Coppers.
O buys and gains a Sage.
O draws a Copper, a Tournament, a Border Village, a Sage and a Ranger.

Turn 12 - Hangar18
H plays 3 Coppers.
H buys and gains a Monument.
H shuffles their deck.
H draws 5 cards.

Turn 12 - Omastar68
O plays a Border Village.
O draws a Copper.
O plays a Sage.
O reveals an Estate.
O shuffles their deck.
O reveals a Sage.
O puts a Sage into their hand.
O discards an Estate.
O plays a Sage.
O reveals a Sage.
O puts a Sage into their hand.
O plays a Sage.
O reveals a Tournament.
O puts a Tournament into their hand.
O plays a Ranger.
O flips Journey token face down.
O plays a Tournament.
O draws a Monument.
O plays a Tournament.
O draws a Sage.
O plays a Sage.
O reveals a Province.
O puts a Province into their hand.
O plays a Monument.
O gets 1 VP.
O plays 2 Coppers.
O buys and gains an Altar.
O draws a Copper, an Estate, a Trusty Steed and 2 Sages.

Turn 13 - Hangar18
H plays a Monument.
H gets +1 Action (from Lost Arts)
H gets 1 VP.
H plays a Monument.
H gets +1 Action (from Lost Arts)
H gets 1 VP.
H plays 2 Coppers.
H buys and gains a Border Village.
H gains a Monument.
H draws 5 cards.

Turn 13 - Omastar68
O plays a Sage.
O reveals a Butcher.
O puts a Butcher into their hand.
O plays a Sage.
O reveals a Sage.
O puts a Sage into their hand.
O plays a Sage.
O reveals 4 Coppers and a Followers.
O shuffles their deck.
O reveals a Ranger.
O puts a Ranger into their hand.
O discards 4 Coppers and a Followers.
O plays a Trusty Steed.
O draws a Province and a Sage.
O plays a Sage.
O reveals a Tournament.
O puts a Tournament into their hand.
O plays a Tournament.
O reveals a Province.
O discards a Province.
O gains a Bag of Gold.
O draws a Bag of Gold.
O plays a Bag of Gold.
O gains a Gold.
O plays a Ranger.
O flips Journey token face up.
O draws 2 Coppers, a Gold, a Tournament and a Sage.
O plays a Sage.
O reveals an Estate and a Border Village.
O puts a Border Village into their hand.
O discards an Estate.
O plays a Border Village.
O draws a Sage.
O plays a Sage.
O reveals a Sage.
O puts a Sage into their hand.
O plays a Sage.
O reveals an Altar.
O puts an Altar into their hand.
O plays a Tournament.
O draws a Monument.
O plays an Altar.
O trashes an Estate.
O gains a Venture.
O plays a Butcher.
O trashes a Monument.
O gains a Venture.
O plays 3 Coppers and a Gold.
O buys and gains a Province.
O shuffles their deck.
O draws 2 Coppers, a Venture, a Followers and a Sage.

Turn 14 - Hangar18
H plays a Monument.
H gets +1 Action (from Lost Arts)
H gets 1 VP.
H plays a Monument.
H gets +1 Action (from Lost Arts)
H gets 1 VP.
H plays a Monument.
H gets +1 Action (from Lost Arts)
H gets 1 VP.
H plays a Butcher.
H plays a Silver.
H buys and gains a Province.
H draws 5 cards.

Turn 14 - Omastar68
O plays a Sage.
O reveals an Estate, a Trusty Steed and a Border Village.
O puts a Border Village into their hand.
O discards an Estate and a Trusty Steed.
O plays a Border Village.
O draws a Copper.
O plays a Followers.
O draws 2 Sages.
O gains an Estate.
H gains a Curse.
H discards a card and a Curse.
O plays a Sage.
O reveals a Tournament.
O puts a Tournament into their hand.
O plays a Sage.
O reveals a Sage.
O puts a Sage into their hand.
O plays a Sage.
O reveals a Province.
O puts a Province into their hand.
O plays a Tournament.
O reveals a Province.
O discards a Province.
O gains a Princess.
O draws a Princess.
O plays a Princess.
O plays a Venture and 3 Coppers.
O reveals a Copper.
O plays a Copper.
O buys and gains a Border Village.
O gains a Ranger.
O buys and gains a Border Village.
O gains a Venture.
O draws a Copper, a Venture, 2 Sages and a Butcher.

Turn 15 - Hangar18
H plays a Monument.
H gets +1 Action (from Lost Arts)
H gets 1 VP.
H plays 2 Coppers.
H buys and gains a Duchy.
H draws 5 cards.

Turn 15 - Omastar68
O plays a Sage.
O reveals an Altar.
O puts an Altar into their hand.
O plays a Sage.
O reveals a Copper and a Sage.
O puts a Sage into their hand.
O discards a Copper.
O plays a Sage.
O reveals a Ranger.
O puts a Ranger into their hand.
O plays a Butcher.
O trashes an Altar.
O gains a Border Village.
O gains a Duchy.
O plays a Venture and a Copper.
O reveals a Copper.
O plays a Copper.
O buys and gains a Sage.
O shuffles their deck.
O draws a Copper, a Gold, a Province, a Bag of Gold and a Tournament.

Turn 16 - Hangar18
H plays a Monument.
H gets +1 Action (from Lost Arts)
H gets 1 VP.
H plays a Monument.
H gets +1 Action (from Lost Arts)
H gets 1 VP.
H plays an Altar.
H trashes a Copper.
H gains a Duchy.
H plays a Copper.
H buys and gains a Duchy.
H shuffles their deck.
H draws 5 cards.

Turn 16 - Omastar68
O plays a Tournament.
O reveals a Province.
O discards a Province.
H reveals a Province.
O gains a Duchy.
O plays a Bag of Gold.
O gains a Gold.
O plays a Copper and a Gold.
O buys and gains a Duchy.
O draws a Copper, a Gold, a Duchy, a Border Village and a Ranger.

Turn 17 - Hangar18
H plays a Monument.
H gets +1 Action (from Lost Arts)
H gets 1 VP.
H plays a Butcher.
H trashes a Monument.
H gains a Duchy.
H plays a Copper.
H buys and gains a Duchy.
H draws 5 cards.

Turn 17 - Omastar68
O plays a Border Village.
O draws a Copper.
O plays a Ranger.
O flips Journey token face down.
O plays 2 Coppers and a Gold.
O buys and gains 2 Dukes.
O draws a Duchy, 2 Ventures, a Sage and a Butcher.

Now here's a weird one. Never seen Monument-BM, I figured this was a noob thing. Certainly Tournament is really strong, and getting all those Prizes you'd think I'd win. I have some idea what I did wrong certainly, spread myself too thin trying to go for Dukes, Tournament ofc, and be open to Gardens later w/ Bag of Gold and stuff. Still, is Monument-BM a thing or am I just that bad? I mean even w/ Lost Arts it doesn't draw or have +buy...speaking of which I shooda got more Rangers and +action on them.

Certainly I go a little crazy on Border Villages, 2 of them was worse than a Province. If I'd been more aggressive getting land instead of building too late would I have won, or is Monument w/ Lost Arts too strong? Always thought of Monument as pretty slow. Would love some help figuring out this board. Also, was Venture a bad idea? Not sure why I got it. And was that Altar too early/late? Should it have been another BV?
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Loempiaverkoper

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Re: Monument-BM?
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2017, 03:56:59 am »
+4

Well calling his plays "noob" isn't really helping anyone. He had a solid plan. Lost arts on monument, get lots of them, thrash a bit with butcher and altar.

You seem to be jazzing it up. The early province spike with tournament did put you in a good position. But if you are planning to make an engine you should work towards drawing your deck. I'm also not sure what to do, because it is hard to get rid of your coppers here. But to draw your deck I think rangers + lost arts. I think you certainly over invested in sages.

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Burning Skull

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Re: Monument-BM?
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2017, 05:57:15 am »
+4

Lost Arts on Monument is totally a viable strategy in a vacuum, but here you can do better. Lost Art should go to your Rangers, since they are the only draw. Prizes are very powerful as usual, especially followers. Bag of Gold is better than usual because of Butcher.
So the general plan woulb be to open Tournament Silver, buy one more silver if you hit three, rest of the threes should be Sages. Get a Butcher as soon as you can, wrapped in Border Village preferably, pile out the Rangers, put a token on them when you have a couple of them. Buy a Province when you can. Second Butcher should be good. Prizes should be Followers -> Steed -> Bag Of Gold. Use Butchers to get Provinces. Never buy money in this game after that second Silver.


Edit:
hmm, altar is here, get an altar then!!! screw bag of gold, get a princess instead and watch for pileouts
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 06:16:08 am by Burning Skull »
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Omastar68

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Re: Monument-BM?
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2017, 01:40:57 pm »
0

Well calling his plays "noob" isn't really helping anyone. He had a solid plan. Lost arts on monument, get lots of them, thrash a bit with butcher and altar.

You seem to be jazzing it up. The early province spike with tournament did put you in a good position. But if you are planning to make an engine you should work towards drawing your deck. I'm also not sure what to do, because it is hard to get rid of your coppers here. But to draw your deck I think rangers + lost arts. I think you certainly over invested in sages.

" I figured this was a noob thing"

dint say it was, it worked out. That's a good point, didn't think about too many Sages. Should some of those have been Silvers instead?
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Omastar68

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Re: Monument-BM?
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2017, 01:49:51 pm »
0

Lost Arts on Monument is totally a viable strategy in a vacuum, but here you can do better. Lost Art should go to your Rangers, since they are the only draw. Prizes are very powerful as usual, especially followers. Bag of Gold is better than usual because of Butcher.
So the general plan woulb be to open Tournament Silver, buy one more silver if you hit three, rest of the threes should be Sages. Get a Butcher as soon as you can, wrapped in Border Village preferably, pile out the Rangers, put a token on them when you have a couple of them. Buy a Province when you can. Second Butcher should be good. Prizes should be Followers -> Steed -> Bag Of Gold. Use Butchers to get Provinces. Never buy money in this game after that second Silver.


Edit:
hmm, altar is here, get an altar then!!! screw bag of gold, get a princess instead and watch for pileouts
[/quote

Oh, 2 Silvers before Sages. I got Sage after just one, that's good advice. I was leaning towards opening Tournament, don't much care for Monument tbh, but I'd lost once or twice to this person so I was easily influenced to copy.

I think 8 should definitely be a Province early w/ Tournament, but what about 6 or 7 if you have enough coin tokens to make 8? Leaning towards Province on 7 too then, really unsure for 6. BV+something and saving tokens seems better than paying more than 1 token on something that might not even line up w/ Tournament, and end up a dead card when u should've builded more.
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Awaclus

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Re: Monument-BM?
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2017, 01:57:22 pm »
+4

Pro tip: NEVER figure what your opponent is doing is a noob thing, even if he buys Pirate Ship or something. If you're prepared for the worst and his strategy sucks, you still win because his strategy sucks, but if you let your guard down and his strategy doesn't suck as much as you anticipated, you're more screwed than you would if you had prepared for it.

aku_chi

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Re: Monument-BM?
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2017, 02:33:53 pm »
+3

I think 8 should definitely be a Province early w/ Tournament, but what about 6 or 7 if you have enough coin tokens to make 8? Leaning towards Province on 7 too then, really unsure for 6. BV+something and saving tokens seems better than paying more than 1 token on something that might not even line up w/ Tournament, and end up a dead card when u should've builded more.

Your first $6+ hand should be an Altar.  If your opponent is not contesting Tournaments, there's no rush to get a Province.  Focus on trashing down with Altar and Butcher, and getting draw with Rangers and Lost Arts on Ranger.  That way, when you do get the Province, you can reliably gain a prize or two.  If your opponent does have Tournaments, I'd add a Province ASAP after getting Altar.  Blocking the opponent's Tournaments is valuable, and increasing your chance to grab Followers first is important.
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Chris is me

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Re: Monument-BM?
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2017, 07:03:00 am »
+1

I don't know how you look at a board with +Actions (in two different ways!), draw, +Buy, and payload and then decide it's a BM board...
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Polk5440

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Re: Monument-BM?
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2017, 11:08:07 am »
+4

Let's follow along in the log for a while....

1. Tournament opening is probably better. But you're not going to lose the game over it.
2-5. Seems good enough. Leaves you with a coin token on hand.
6. Province could have been an Altar since opponent is not contesting, as mentioned. Again, you're not going to lose the game over it. But these little things do start to compound.
7. Seems good enough.
8. Here is where you really start to go off the rails. You turn your one and only Silver into a Sage and buy a Sage. You leave 3 coin tokens in the bank. You need to be utilizing these tokens for better stuff. Better stuff early leads to more better stuff which leads to even more better stuff.... Further, you kill your only Silver for cycling with Sage. Tournaments are not being contested, so not a very good trade-off, IMO. Use those tokens and get a Border Village-Ranger or Altar here and keep a Silver.
9. Misplayed. You've banked everything you've had on cycling with Sages, presumably to line up Province/Tournament, but you misplay the chance to get two prizes. You play Sage (draw a Province), play a Sage (draw a Tournament). You now have two Tournaments and a Province. You play Tournament (discarding Province and gaining Trusty Steed, drawing Trusty Steed). You should have tried drawing with TS to try to get Sage to re-draw the Province before playing Tournament. You would have failed in this case (drawing a Copper and a Monument). But you should have tried. You also continue to hoard your tokens (at this point I think you have 5?). Butcher Copper into Sage/Ranger then buy BV-Ranger or Lost Arts or Altar or something to keep building up that deck as much as possible!

The compounding is getting really bad. 8 and 9 are potentially the game losing turns.

One final note: You seem to want to go with lots of Sages for cycling so that makes the stop card opening (Monument) on your part even stranger.
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JW

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Re: Monument-BM?
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2017, 01:15:44 pm »
+2

If uncontested, the engine gets a single Province and prizes, uses the Altar + Princess combo to get a ton of Border Villages and Rangers (edit: with Lost Arts on Ranger), then piles the Gardens and 3-piles using the buys from Ranger + the cost reduction from Princess.

See game #4575366 on frankfurt. I was playing a bot that never bought a Province and was fortunate to get an Altar on turn 4, so probably wouldn't be this fast on average. This kingdom also shows the importance of leaving your journey token so that your first Ranger the next turn draws five cards, since the trashing is slow you will have a fair number of your starting cards until late in the game.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 01:40:55 pm by JW »
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luser

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Re: Monument-BM?
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2017, 01:35:40 pm »
0

Yes, I would get princess first as followers are ignorable. Also I would probably skip second silver as you get butcher/altar and not hitting that when opponent does is basically game over.  Game would end on piles or by milling provinces with butcher.
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Titandrake

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Re: Monument-BM?
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2017, 03:04:35 am »
+3

I wouldn't say Followers is ignorable. Followers + trash-for-benefit (like Butcher) is often pretty nice, because you can cash in the Estates you gain to mitigate the drawback. That being said I agree that Princess is the most important Prize here. Princess > Steed > Followers > Bag of Gold IMO but I'd have to play the board myself, if I'm drawing cards very easily then Princess > Steed > Bag of Gold > Followers.

The thing to remember about Sages is that if your Sage keeps drawing Sages, all you've done is discarded a bunch of cards. It's the classic Village Idiot trap but we don't have a term for when people do it with Sages instead.

Some Sages are good, and they're better than Silver in most decks, but you need to pick up cards that you want Sage to draw. As Polk said, storing up too many coin tokens here is bad, many of your Sage buys could have been "spend 1 token, buy Ranger"
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Dylan32

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Re: Monument-BM?
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2017, 01:55:27 pm »
+4

Why not call it the foolish sage?  It's a nice little oxymoron for it.
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