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Author Topic: Funny in a sad, WTH way  (Read 987 times)

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Omastar68

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Funny in a sad, WTH way
« on: June 13, 2017, 09:50:41 pm »
0

kingdom:

Loan
Advisor
Armory
Ironworks
Counting House
Embassy
Torturer
Catacombs
Wild Hunt
Library

Raid
Code: [Select]
T starts with 7 Coppers and 3 Estates.
T shuffles their deck.
T draws 4 Coppers and an Estate.
e starts with 7 Coppers and 3 Estates.
e shuffles their deck.
e draws 4 Coppers and an Estate.
O starts with 7 Coppers and 3 Estates.
O shuffles their deck.
O draws 3 Coppers and 2 Estates.

Turn 1 - Tathibel
T plays 4 Coppers.
T buys and gains an Advisor.
T draws 3 Coppers and 2 Estates.

Turn 1 - eigensheep
e plays 4 Coppers.
e buys and gains an Advisor.
e draws 3 Coppers and 2 Estates.

Turn 1 - Omastar68
O plays 3 Coppers.
O buys and gains a Loan.
O draws 4 Coppers and an Estate.

Turn 2 - Tathibel
T plays 3 Coppers.
T buys and gains a Silver.
T shuffles their deck.
T draws 3 Coppers, a Silver and an Estate.

Turn 2 - eigensheep
e plays 3 Coppers.
e buys and gains a Loan.
e shuffles their deck.
e draws 3 Coppers, an Estate and a Loan.

Turn 2 - Omastar68
O plays 4 Coppers.
O buys and gains an Armory.
O shuffles their deck.
O draws 3 Coppers and 2 Estates.

Turn 3 - Tathibel
T plays a Silver and 3 Coppers.
T buys and gains a Torturer.
T draws 3 Coppers, an Estate and an Advisor.

Turn 3 - eigensheep
e plays a Loan and 3 Coppers.
e reveals a Copper and an Advisor.
e trashes a Copper.
e discards an Advisor.
e buys and gains an Advisor.
e draws 3 Coppers and 2 Estates.

Turn 3 - Omastar68
O plays 3 Coppers.
O buys and gains a Silver.
O draws 3 Coppers, an Estate and a Loan.

Turn 4 - Tathibel
T plays an Advisor.
T shuffles their deck.
T reveals a Copper and 2 Estates.
T discards a Copper.
T puts 2 Estates into their hand.
T plays 3 Coppers.
T buys and gains a Loan.
T draws 3 Coppers, a Silver and a Torturer.

Turn 4 - eigensheep
e plays 3 Coppers.
e buys and gains a Silver.
e shuffles their deck.
e draws 3 Coppers, a Silver and an Estate.

Turn 4 - Omastar68
O plays a Loan and 3 Coppers.
O reveals a Copper.
O trashes a Copper.
O buys and gains an Advisor.
O shuffles their deck.
O draws 3 Coppers, an Estate and an Armory.

Turn 5 - Tathibel
T plays a Torturer.
T shuffles their deck.
T draws 2 Coppers and a Loan.
e discards a Copper and an Estate.
O discards a Copper and an Estate.
T plays a Silver, a Loan and 5 Coppers.
T reveals a Copper and 2 Estates.
T trashes a Copper.
T discards 2 Estates.
T buys and gains a Torturer.
T shuffles their deck.
T draws 2 Coppers, an Estate, a Loan and an Advisor.

Turn 5 - eigensheep
e plays a Silver and 2 Coppers.
e buys and gains an Advisor.
e draws a Copper, 2 Estates, a Loan and an Advisor.

Turn 5 - Omastar68
O plays an Armory.
O gains an Advisor.
O draws a Copper, a Silver, an Estate and 2 Advisors.

Turn 6 - Tathibel
T plays an Advisor.
T reveals 2 Coppers and a Silver.
T discards a Silver.
T puts 2 Coppers into their hand.
T plays a Loan and 4 Coppers.
T reveals a Copper and a Torturer.
T trashes a Copper.
T discards a Torturer.
T buys and gains a Torturer.
T shuffles their deck.
T draws a Copper, 2 Estates and 2 Torturers.

Turn 6 - eigensheep
e plays an Advisor.
e reveals 2 Coppers and an Advisor.
e discards an Advisor.
e puts 2 Coppers into their hand.
e plays a Loan and 3 Coppers.
e shuffles their deck.
e reveals a Copper.
e trashes a Copper.
e buys and gains an Advisor.
e draws 2 Coppers, a Silver and 2 Advisors.

Turn 6 - Omastar68
O plays an Advisor.
O reveals 2 Coppers and a Loan.
O discards a Loan.
O puts 2 Coppers into their hand.
O plays an Advisor.
O shuffles their deck.
O reveals a Copper, an Estate and a Loan.
O discards a Loan.
O puts a Copper and an Estate into their hand.
O plays a Silver and 4 Coppers.
O buys and gains a Torturer.
O shuffles their deck.
O draws 3 Coppers, an Estate and an Armory.

Turn 7 - Tathibel
T plays a Torturer.
T draws 2 Coppers and an Advisor.
e discards 2 Coppers.
O discards a Copper and an Estate.
T plays 3 Coppers.
T buys and gains a Loan.
T draws 2 Coppers, a Silver, an Estate and a Torturer.

Turn 7 - eigensheep
e plays an Advisor.
e shuffles their deck.
e reveals a Copper and 2 Estates.
e discards a Copper.
e puts 2 Estates into their hand.
e plays an Advisor.
e reveals 2 Coppers and a Loan.
e discards a Loan.
e puts 2 Coppers into their hand.
e plays a Silver and 2 Coppers.
e buys and gains an Advisor.
e draws 2 Coppers, an Estate and 2 Advisors.

Turn 7 - Omastar68
O plays an Armory.
O gains an Advisor.
O draws a Copper, an Estate, a Torturer and 2 Advisors.

Turn 8 - Tathibel
T plays a Torturer.
T shuffles their deck.
T draws 2 Coppers and a Loan.
e discards a Copper and an Estate.
O discards a Copper and an Estate.
T plays a Silver, a Loan and 4 Coppers.
T reveals an Estate and a Loan.
T discards an Estate and a Loan.
T buys and gains an Advisor.
T draws a Copper, an Estate, 2 Torturers and an Advisor.

Turn 8 - eigensheep
e plays an Advisor.
e shuffles their deck.
e reveals 2 Coppers and a Silver.
e discards a Silver.
e puts 2 Coppers into their hand.
e plays an Advisor.
e reveals 2 Estates and an Advisor.
e discards an Advisor.
e puts 2 Estates into their hand.
e plays 3 Coppers.
e buys and gains a Silver.
e draws a Copper, an Estate, a Loan and 2 Advisors.

Turn 8 - Omastar68
O plays an Advisor.
O reveals a Silver, an Estate and an Advisor.
O discards an Advisor.
O puts a Silver and an Estate into their hand.
O plays an Advisor.
O reveals 2 Coppers and a Loan.
O discards a Loan.
O puts 2 Coppers into their hand.
O plays a Torturer.
O shuffles their deck.
O draws 2 Coppers and a Loan.
T discards an Estate and a Torturer.
e discards a Copper and an Estate.
O plays a Silver, a Loan and 4 Coppers.
O reveals a Copper, an Estate and an Advisor.
O trashes a Copper.
O discards an Estate and an Advisor.
O buys a Raid.
O gains a Silver.
T moves -Card token to Draw Pile.
e moves -Card token to Draw Pile.
O shuffles their deck.
O draws 3 Coppers, an Estate and an Armory.

Turn 9 - Tathibel
T plays an Advisor.
T shuffles their deck.
T reveals a Copper, a Silver and a Loan.
T discards a Silver.
T puts a Copper and a Loan into their hand.
T plays a Torturer.
T skips a draw (because of Raid)
T moves -Card token to Token Limbo.
T draws a Copper and an Advisor.
e discards 2 Advisors.
O discards a Copper and an Estate.
T plays a Loan and 3 Coppers.
T reveals a Loan.
T discards a Loan.
T buys and gains a Silver.
T draws 2 Coppers, 2 Estates and a Torturer.

Turn 9 - eigensheep
e plays a Loan.
e reveals a Copper.
e trashes a Copper.
e skips a draw (because of Raid)
e moves -Card token to Token Limbo.
e shuffles their deck.
e draws a Silver, an Estate and 2 Advisors.

Turn 9 - Omastar68
O plays an Armory.
O gains an Ironworks.
O draws a Copper, an Ironworks, a Torturer and 2 Advisors.

Turn 10 - Tathibel
T plays a Torturer.
T shuffles their deck.
T draws an Estate, a Torturer and an Advisor.
e discards a Silver and an Estate.
O discards a Copper and an Ironworks.
T draws 2 Coppers, a Silver, a Torturer and an Advisor.

Turn 10 - eigensheep
e plays an Advisor.
e reveals a Copper and 2 Advisors.
e discards an Advisor.
e puts a Copper and an Advisor into their hand.
e plays an Advisor.
e reveals 2 Coppers and an Estate.
e discards a Copper.
e puts a Copper and an Estate into their hand.
e plays an Advisor.
e reveals a Copper, an Estate and a Loan.
e discards a Loan.
e puts a Copper and an Estate into their hand.
e plays 3 Coppers.
e buys and gains a Silver.
e shuffles their deck.
e draws a Copper, a Silver, an Estate and 2 Advisors.

Turn 10 - Omastar68
O plays an Advisor.
O reveals a Copper, an Estate and a Loan.
O discards a Loan.
O puts a Copper and an Estate into their hand.
O plays an Advisor.
O reveals 2 Silvers and an Advisor.
O discards an Advisor.
O puts 2 Silvers into their hand.
O plays a Torturer.
O shuffles their deck.
O draws a Copper, an Estate and an Ironworks.
T discards 2 Coppers.
e discards a Copper and an Estate.
O plays 2 Silvers and 2 Coppers.
O buys a Raid.
O gains 2 Silvers.
T moves -Card token to Draw Pile.
e moves -Card token to Draw Pile.
O draws 2 Coppers, an Estate, an Armory and an Advisor.

Turn 11 - Tathibel
T plays an Advisor.
T reveals a Copper, a Silver and a Loan.
T discards a Silver.
T puts a Copper and a Loan into their hand.
T plays a Torturer.
T skips a draw (because of Raid)
T moves -Card token to Token Limbo.
T shuffles their deck.
T draws a Silver and a Loan.
e gains a Curse.
O discards a Copper and an Estate.
T plays 2 Silvers, a Loan and a Copper.
T reveals a Copper and a Torturer.
T trashes a Copper.
T discards a Torturer.
T plays a Loan.
T reveals a Copper and an Estate.
T trashes a Copper.
T discards an Estate.
T buys and gains a Gold.
T draws 2 Coppers, 2 Estates and a Torturer.

Turn 11 - eigensheep
e plays an Advisor.
e reveals a Copper, a Loan and an Advisor.
e discards an Advisor.
e puts a Copper and a Loan into their hand.
e plays an Advisor.
e reveals 2 Coppers and an Estate.
e discards a Copper.
e puts a Copper and an Estate into their hand.
e plays a Silver, a Loan and 2 Coppers.
e reveals a Silver and 2 Advisors.
e discards a Silver and 2 Advisors.
e buys and gains a Library.
e skips a draw (because of Raid)
e moves -Card token to Token Limbo.
e shuffles their deck.
e draws a Silver, an Estate, a Loan and an Advisor.

Turn 11 - Omastar68
O plays an Advisor.
O shuffles their deck.
O reveals a Copper, an Estate and a Loan.
O discards a Loan.
O puts a Copper and an Estate into their hand.
O plays an Armory.
O gains a Silver.
O draws a Copper, 3 Silvers and an Estate.

Turn 12 - Tathibel
T plays a Torturer.
T shuffles their deck.
T draws 2 Torturers and an Advisor.
e discards an Estate and a Loan.
O discards a Copper and an Estate.
T draws 2 Silvers, 2 Loans and an Advisor.

Turn 12 - eigensheep
e plays an Advisor.
e reveals an Estate, a Library and an Advisor.
e discards a Library.
e puts an Estate and an Advisor into their hand.
e plays an Advisor.
e reveals a Curse, a Silver and an Advisor.
e discards an Advisor.
e puts a Curse and a Silver into their hand.
e plays 2 Silvers.
e buys and gains a Silver.
e draws 4 Coppers and an Estate.

Turn 12 - Omastar68
O plays 3 Silvers.
O buys and gains a Library.
O draws 2 Coppers, a Silver, a Torturer and an Advisor.

Turn 13 - Tathibel
T plays an Advisor.
T reveals a Copper, a Gold and an Estate.
T discards a Gold.
T puts a Copper and an Estate into their hand.
T plays 2 Silvers, a Loan and a Copper.
T shuffles their deck.
T reveals a Copper, an Estate and 3 Torturers.
T trashes a Copper.
T discards an Estate and 3 Torturers.
T plays a Loan.
T reveals a Gold.
T discards a Gold.
T buys and gains a Gold.
T shuffles their deck.
T draws a Copper, a Silver, an Estate, a Loan and an Advisor.

Turn 13 - eigensheep
e plays 4 Coppers.
e buys and gains a Silver.
e shuffles their deck.
e draws a Silver, a Library and 3 Advisors.

Turn 13 - Omastar68
O plays an Advisor.
O reveals a Silver, an Estate and an Advisor.
O discards an Advisor.
O puts a Silver and an Estate into their hand.
O plays a Torturer.
O shuffles their deck.
O draws an Estate, an Ironworks and an Armory.
T discards a Copper and an Estate.
e discards 2 Advisors.
O plays 2 Silvers and 2 Coppers.
O buys a Raid.
O gains 2 Silvers.
T moves -Card token to Draw Pile.
e moves -Card token to Draw Pile.
O draws 2 Coppers, an Estate, a Loan and an Advisor.

Turn 14 - Tathibel
T plays an Advisor.
T reveals 2 Golds and an Advisor.
T discards a Gold.
T puts a Gold and an Advisor into their hand.
T plays an Advisor.
T reveals an Estate, a Torturer and a Loan.
T discards a Loan.
T puts an Estate and a Torturer into their hand.
T plays a Torturer.
T skips a draw (because of Raid)
T moves -Card token to Token Limbo.
T draws a Silver and a Torturer.
e discards a Silver and an Advisor.
O discards a Copper and an Estate.
T plays 2 Silvers, a Loan and a Gold.
T reveals a Copper, an Estate and a Torturer.
T trashes a Copper.
T discards an Estate and a Torturer.
T buys and gains a Province.
T shuffles their deck.
T draws 2 Golds, a Province, a Torturer and a Loan.

Turn 14 - eigensheep
e plays a Library.
e skips a draw (because of Raid)
e moves -Card token to Token Limbo.
e draws an Estate and an Advisor.
e looks at an Advisor.
e sets an Advisor aside with Library.
e draws a Copper, a Silver, an Estate, a Loan and an Advisor.
e looks at an Advisor.
e sets an Advisor aside with Library.
e draws a Copper and a Silver.
e discards 2 Advisors.
e plays 2 Silvers, a Loan and 2 Coppers.
e reveals a Curse, a Silver and an Estate.
e discards a Curse, a Silver and an Estate.
e buys and gains a Gold.
e shuffles their deck.
e draws 2 Coppers, a Silver, an Estate and a Loan.

Turn 14 - Omastar68
O plays an Advisor.
O reveals a Copper and 2 Silvers.
O discards a Silver.
O puts a Copper and a Silver into their hand.
O plays a Silver, a Loan and 2 Coppers.
O reveals a Silver and an Advisor.
O discards a Silver and an Advisor.
O buys a Raid.
O gains a Silver.
T moves -Card token to Draw Pile.
e moves -Card token to Draw Pile.
O shuffles their deck.
O draws a Copper, 2 Silvers, a Library and an Armory.

Turn 15 - Tathibel
T plays a Torturer.
T skips a draw (because of Raid)
T moves -Card token to Token Limbo.
T draws a Silver and a Torturer.
e discards a Copper and an Estate.
O discards a Copper and an Armory.
T plays a Silver, a Loan and 2 Golds.
T reveals a Copper and an Advisor.
T trashes a Copper.
T discards an Advisor.
T buys and gains a Province.
T draws a Silver, 2 Estates, a Loan and an Advisor.

Turn 15 - eigensheep
e plays a Silver, a Loan and a Copper.
e reveals a Copper and an Estate.
e trashes a Copper.
e discards an Estate.
e buys and gains a Silver.
e skips a draw (because of Raid)
e moves -Card token to Token Limbo.
e draws a Copper, a Silver and 2 Advisors.

Turn 15 - Omastar68
O plays a Library.
O draws an Advisor.
O looks at an Advisor.
O sets an Advisor aside with Library.
O draws a Copper, an Estate and an Advisor.
O looks at an Advisor.
O sets an Advisor aside with Library.
O draws a Silver, an Estate and an Ironworks.
O looks at an Ironworks.
O sets an Ironworks aside with Library.
O draws a Copper.
O discards an Ironworks and 2 Advisors.
O plays 3 Silvers and 2 Coppers.
O buys and gains a Province.
O draws 2 Coppers, 2 Silvers and a Torturer.

Turn 16 - Tathibel
T plays an Advisor.
T shuffles their deck.
T reveals an Estate and 2 Torturers.
T discards an Estate.
T puts 2 Torturers into their hand.
T plays a Torturer.
T draws a Silver, a Gold and a Loan.
e discards a Copper and a Silver.
O discards 2 Coppers.
T plays 2 Silvers, a Loan and a Gold.
T reveals a Gold.
T discards a Gold.
T plays a Loan.
T reveals 2 Provinces, a Torturer and an Advisor.
T shuffles their deck.
T reveals a Gold.
T discards a Gold, 2 Provinces, a Torturer and an Advisor.
T buys and gains a Province.
T shuffles their deck.
T draws 2 Estates, 2 Provinces and a Torturer.

Turn 16 - eigensheep
e plays an Advisor.
e reveals a Curse, a Silver and an Advisor.
e discards an Advisor.
e puts a Curse and a Silver into their hand.
e plays an Advisor.
e reveals a Silver, an Estate and an Advisor.
e discards an Advisor.
e puts a Silver and an Estate into their hand.
e plays 2 Silvers.
e buys and gains a Silver.
e shuffles their deck.
e draws 2 Silvers, a Gold, a Library and an Advisor.

Turn 16 - Omastar68
O plays a Torturer.
O draws 2 Silvers and an Estate.
T discards 2 Estates.
e discards a Silver and an Advisor.
O plays 4 Silvers.
O buys and gains a Province.
O shuffles their deck.
O draws 2 Silvers, a Loan and 2 Advisors.

Turn 17 - Tathibel
T plays a Torturer.
T draws a Gold, a Torturer and an Advisor.
e discards a Silver and a Gold.
O discards a Silver and a Loan.
T plays a Gold.
T buys and gains a Silver.
T draws 2 Silvers, a Gold, an Estate and a Torturer.

Turn 17 - eigensheep
e plays a Library.
e draws 2 Coppers, a Loan and an Advisor.
e looks at an Advisor.
e sets an Advisor aside with Library.
e draws 3 Silvers and an Estate.
e discards an Advisor.
e plays 3 Silvers, a Loan and 2 Coppers.
e reveals a Silver.
e discards a Silver.
e buys and gains a Library.
e draws a Curse, a Silver and 3 Advisors.

Turn 17 - Omastar68
O plays an Advisor.
O reveals a Silver, an Estate and a Torturer.
O discards a Torturer.
O puts a Silver and an Estate into their hand.
O plays an Advisor.
O reveals a Copper and 2 Silvers.
O discards a Silver.
O puts a Copper and a Silver into their hand.
O plays 3 Silvers and a Copper.
O buys and gains a Torturer.
O draws a Copper, 2 Silvers, a Province and a Library.

Turn 18 - Tathibel
T plays a Torturer.
T draws a Province, a Loan and an Advisor.
e discards a Curse and a Silver.
O discards a Copper and a Province.
T plays 2 Silvers, a Loan and a Gold.
T reveals a Loan.
T trashes a Loan.
T buys and gains a Province.
T shuffles their deck.
T draws an Estate, 2 Provinces, a Torturer and a Loan.

Turn 18 - eigensheep
e plays an Advisor.
e reveals a Copper and 2 Estates.
e discards a Copper.
e puts 2 Estates into their hand.
e plays an Advisor.
e shuffles their deck.
e reveals 2 Silvers and a Library.
e discards a Silver.
e puts a Silver and a Library into their hand.
e plays an Advisor.
e reveals a Silver and 2 Advisors.
e discards an Advisor.
e puts a Silver and an Advisor into their hand.
e plays a Library.
e draws a Silver and a Gold.
e plays 3 Silvers and a Gold.
e buys and gains a Province.
e draws 2 Coppers, a Silver, an Estate and a Library.

Turn 18 - Omastar68
O plays a Library.
O draws an Estate and an Armory.
O looks at an Armory.
O sets an Armory aside with Library.
O draws a Copper and an Advisor.
O looks at an Advisor.
O sets an Advisor aside with Library.
O draws an Ironworks.
O looks at an Ironworks.
O sets an Ironworks aside with Library.
O draws a Copper, an Estate and a Province.
O discards an Ironworks, an Armory and an Advisor.
O plays 2 Silvers and 2 Coppers.
O buys a Raid.
O gains 2 Silvers.
T moves -Card token to Draw Pile.
e moves -Card token to Draw Pile.
O shuffles their deck.
O draws a Copper, 2 Silvers, an Estate and a Province.

Turn 19 - Tathibel
T plays a Torturer.
T skips a draw (because of Raid)
T moves -Card token to Token Limbo.
T draws a Silver and a Gold.
e discards a Copper and an Estate.
O discards an Estate and a Province.
T plays a Silver, a Loan and a Gold.
T reveals a Silver, a Province, 2 Torturers and an Advisor.
T discards a Silver, a Province, 2 Torturers and an Advisor.
T buys and gains a Gold.
T draws a Silver, 2 Estates, a Province and an Advisor.

Turn 19 - eigensheep
e plays a Library.
e skips a draw (because of Raid)
e moves -Card token to Token Limbo.
e draws a Curse, a Copper, 2 Silvers and a Loan.
e plays 3 Silvers and 2 Coppers.
e buys and gains a Province.
e shuffles their deck.
e draws a Curse, a Copper, 2 Silvers and a Library.

Turn 19 - Omastar68
O plays 2 Silvers and a Copper.
O buys and gains a Duchy.
O draws a Copper, an Estate, a Torturer and 2 Advisors.

Turn 20 - Tathibel
T plays an Advisor.
T shuffles their deck.
T reveals a Silver, a Gold and a Torturer.
T discards a Gold.
T puts a Silver and a Torturer into their hand.
T plays a Torturer.
T draws a Province, a Torturer and a Loan.
e discards a Curse and a Copper.
O discards a Copper and an Estate.
T plays 2 Silvers and a Loan.
T reveals a Silver.
T discards a Silver.
T buys and gains a Duchy.
T draws 2 Golds, an Estate, a Torturer and an Advisor.

Turn 20 - eigensheep
e plays a Library.
e draws 2 Silvers, 2 Estates and a Province.
e plays 4 Silvers.
e buys and gains a Province.
e draws 2 Coppers, an Estate, a Library and an Advisor.

Turn 20 - Omastar68
O plays an Advisor.
O reveals an Estate, an Ironworks and a Torturer.
O discards a Torturer.
O puts an Estate and an Ironworks into their hand.
O plays an Advisor.
O reveals a Copper, a Silver and an Armory.
O discards a Silver.
O puts a Copper and an Armory into their hand.
O plays an Ironworks.
O gains an Ironworks.
O plays a Torturer.
O draws a Copper and 2 Silvers.
T discards an Estate and an Advisor.
e discards an Estate and an Advisor.
O plays 2 Silvers and 2 Coppers.
O buys and gains a Duchy.
O draws a Copper, 3 Silvers and an Advisor.

Turn 21 - Tathibel
T plays a Torturer.
T shuffles their deck.
T draws 2 Provinces and an Advisor.
e discards 2 Coppers.
O discards a Copper and a Silver.
T plays 2 Golds.
T buys and gains a Gold.
T draws 2 Silvers, an Estate, a Province and an Advisor.

Turn 21 - eigensheep
e plays a Library.
e draws 2 Silvers, a Province and an Advisor.
e looks at an Advisor.
e sets an Advisor aside with Library.
e draws an Advisor.
e looks at an Advisor.
e sets an Advisor aside with Library.
e draws an Advisor.
e looks at an Advisor.
e sets an Advisor aside with Library.
e draws an Advisor.
e looks at an Advisor.
e sets an Advisor aside with Library.
e draws a Silver, a Gold and a Loan.
e shuffles their deck.
e draws a Silver.
e discards 4 Advisors.
e plays 4 Silvers, a Loan and a Gold.
e reveals a Silver.
e discards a Silver.
e buys and gains a Province.
e draws a Curse, a Copper, an Estate, a Province and an Advisor.

Turn 21 - Omastar68
O plays an Advisor.
O reveals 2 Silvers and a Loan.
O discards a Silver.
O puts a Silver and a Loan into their hand.
O plays 3 Silvers and a Loan.
O reveals a Province and a Library.
O shuffles their deck.
O reveals a Copper.
O trashes a Copper.
O discards a Province and a Library.
O buys and gains a Duchy.
O draws a Silver, an Estate, a Duchy, an Ironworks and a Torturer.

Turn 22 - Tathibel
T plays an Advisor.
T reveals a Silver, a Duchy and a Torturer.
T discards a Torturer.
T puts a Silver and a Duchy into their hand.
T plays 3 Silvers.
T buys and gains a Duchy.
T draws a Gold, 2 Estates, a Province and a Loan.

Turn 22 - eigensheep
e plays an Advisor.
e reveals a Copper, a Silver and a Library.
e discards a Silver.
e puts a Copper and a Library into their hand.
e plays a Library.
e draws a Silver and an Estate.
e plays a Silver and 2 Coppers.
e buys and gains an Estate.
e shuffles their deck.
e draws a Copper, an Estate, a Province, a Library and an Advisor.

Turn 22 - Omastar68
O plays an Ironworks.
O gains an Ironworks.
O plays a Torturer.
O draws a Copper, a Silver and an Advisor.
T discards 2 Estates.
e discards a Province and an Advisor.
O plays 2 Silvers and a Copper.
O buys and gains a Duchy.
O draws 2 Silvers, an Ironworks, a Torturer and an Armory.

Turn 23 - Tathibel
T plays a Loan and a Gold.
T reveals a Torturer.
T shuffles their deck.
T reveals a Silver.
T discards a Silver and a Torturer.
T buys and gains an Estate.
T draws a Silver, a Gold, 2 Duchies and an Advisor.

Turn 23 - eigensheep
e plays a Library.
e draws a Curse, a Copper, a Gold, a Province and a Loan.
e plays a Loan, a Gold and 2 Coppers.
e reveals a Copper, an Estate, a Library and an Advisor.
e trashes a Copper.
e discards an Estate, a Library and an Advisor.
e buys and gains a Duchy.
e draws 3 Silvers, an Estate and an Advisor.

Turn 23 - Omastar68
O plays an Ironworks.
O gains an Ironworks.
O plays a Torturer.
O draws a Copper, a Silver and an Estate.
T discards 2 Duchies.
e discards a Silver and an Estate.
O plays 3 Silvers and a Copper.
O buys and gains a Duchy.
O draws a Copper, a Silver, an Estate, a Duchy and an Advisor.

Turn 24 - Tathibel
T plays an Advisor.
T reveals an Estate, a Province and an Advisor.
T discards an Advisor.
T puts an Estate and a Province into their hand.
T plays a Silver and a Gold.
T buys and gains a Duchy.
T draws 2 Golds, a Province and 2 Torturers.

Turn 24 - eigensheep
e plays an Advisor.
e reveals a Silver, an Estate and an Advisor.
e discards an Advisor.
e puts a Silver and an Estate into their hand.
e plays 3 Silvers.
e buys and gains a Duchy.
e draws 2 Silvers, 2 Provinces and an Advisor.

Turn 24 - Omastar68
O plays an Advisor.
O reveals a Copper, a Silver and a Province.
O discards a Silver.
O puts a Copper and a Province into their hand.
O plays a Silver and 2 Coppers.
O buys and gains an Estate.
O shuffles their deck.
O draws a Duchy, 2 Provinces, a Library and an Ironworks.

Turn 25 - Tathibel
T plays a Torturer.
T draws a Silver, an Estate and a Province.
e discards 2 Provinces.
O discards 2 Provinces.
T plays a Silver and 2 Golds.
T buys and gains a Province.
T shuffles their deck.
T draws a Silver, an Estate and 3 Provinces.

Turn 25 - eigensheep
e plays an Advisor.
e shuffles their deck.
e reveals a Silver, a Duchy and a Library.
e discards a Library.
e puts a Silver and a Duchy into their hand.
e plays 3 Silvers.
e buys and gains a Duchy.
e draws a Curse, a Silver, an Estate, a Province and a Library.

Turn 25 - Omastar68
O plays an Ironworks.
O gains an Ironworks.
O plays a Library.
O draws 2 Coppers, a Silver, a Duchy and a Torturer.
O looks at a Torturer.
O sets a Torturer aside with Library.
O draws a Silver and an Estate.
O discards a Torturer.
O plays 2 Silvers and 2 Coppers.
O buys a Raid.
O gains 2 Silvers.
T moves -Card token to Draw Pile.
e moves -Card token to Draw Pile.
O draws a Copper, 2 Silvers, a Duchy and a Loan.

Turn 26 - Tathibel
T plays a Silver.
T buys and gains an Estate.
T skips a draw (because of Raid)
T moves -Card token to Token Limbo.
T draws a Gold, an Estate, a Province and a Loan.

Turn 26 - eigensheep
e plays a Library.
e skips a draw (because of Raid)
e moves -Card token to Token Limbo.
e draws an Advisor.
e looks at an Advisor.
e sets an Advisor aside with Library.
e draws an Advisor.
e looks at an Advisor.
e sets an Advisor aside with Library.
e draws 3 Estates.
e discards 2 Advisors.
e plays a Silver.
e buys and gains an Estate.
e draws a Copper, a Silver, 2 Provinces and an Advisor.

Turn 26 - Omastar68
O plays 2 Silvers, a Loan and a Copper.
O reveals a Silver, an Estate and a Duchy.
O discards a Silver, an Estate and a Duchy.
O buys and gains a Duchy.
O draws an Estate, an Ironworks, a Torturer, an Armory and an Advisor.

Turn 27 - Tathibel
T plays a Loan and a Gold.
T reveals a Gold.
T discards a Gold.
T buys and gains an Estate.
T draws a Gold, an Estate, 2 Duchies and a Province.

Turn 27 - eigensheep
e plays an Advisor.
e reveals a Copper, a Silver and an Advisor.
e discards an Advisor.
e puts a Copper and a Silver into their hand.
e plays 2 Silvers and 2 Coppers.
e buys and gains a Wild Hunt.
e draws a Silver, a Gold, a Duchy, a Province and a Loan.

Turn 27 - Omastar68
O plays an Advisor.
O reveals 2 Silvers and an Ironworks.
O discards a Silver.
O puts a Silver and an Ironworks into their hand.
O plays a Torturer.
O draws a Silver, an Estate and an Advisor.
T discards 2 Duchies.
e discards a Duchy and a Province.
O plays 2 Silvers.
O buys and gains a Silver.
O draws a Copper, 2 Silvers, a Duchy and an Advisor.

Turn 28 - Tathibel
T plays a Gold.
T buys and gains an Estate.
T draws 2 Silvers, 2 Torturers and an Advisor.

Turn 28 - eigensheep
e plays a Silver and a Gold.
e buys and gains a Wild Hunt.
e shuffles their deck.
e draws 2 Silvers, 2 Libraries and a Wild Hunt.

Turn 28 - Omastar68
O plays an Advisor.
O shuffles their deck.
O reveals a Silver, a Duchy and an Ironworks.
O discards a Silver.
O puts a Duchy and an Ironworks into their hand.
O plays an Ironworks.
O gains an Estate.
O draws a Silver.
O plays 3 Silvers and a Copper.
O buys and gains a Wild Hunt.
O draws a Copper, a Silver, an Estate, a Duchy and a Loan.

Turn 29 - Tathibel
T plays an Advisor.
T reveals a Gold, an Estate and a Duchy.
T discards a Gold.
T puts an Estate and a Duchy into their hand.
T plays a Torturer.
T shuffles their deck.
T draws an Estate, a Torturer and an Advisor.
e discards 2 Libraries.
O discards an Estate and a Duchy.
T plays 2 Silvers.
T buys and gains an Estate.
T draws a Gold, 2 Estates and 2 Provinces.

Turn 29 - eigensheep
e plays a Wild Hunt.
e draws a Silver and 2 Provinces.
e plays 3 Silvers.
e buys a Raid.
e gains 3 Silvers.
O moves -Card token to Draw Pile.
T moves -Card token to Draw Pile.
e draws an Estate, a Loan, 2 Advisors and a Wild Hunt.

Turn 29 - Omastar68
O plays a Silver, a Loan and a Copper.
O reveals a Silver, an Ironworks and a Torturer.
O discards a Silver, an Ironworks and a Torturer.
O buys and gains an Estate.
O skips a draw (because of Raid)
O moves -Card token to Token Limbo.
O draws a Silver, a Duchy, an Armory and an Advisor.

Turn 30 - Tathibel
T plays a Gold.
T buys and gains an Estate.
T skips a draw (because of Raid)
T moves -Card token to Token Limbo.
T draws 3 Golds and a Province.

Turn 30 - eigensheep
e plays an Advisor.
e reveals 2 Estates and a Duchy.
e discards a Duchy.
e puts 2 Estates into their hand.
e plays an Advisor.
e reveals a Province and 2 Advisors.
e discards an Advisor.
e puts a Province and an Advisor into their hand.
e plays an Advisor.
e reveals a Gold, an Estate and a Province.
e discards a Gold.
e puts an Estate and a Province into their hand.
e plays a Wild Hunt.
e draws 2 Silvers and a Duchy.
e plays 2 Silvers and a Loan.
e reveals a Silver and an Advisor.
e discards a Silver and an Advisor.
e buys a Raid.
e gains 2 Silvers.
O moves -Card token to Draw Pile.
T moves -Card token to Draw Pile.
e draws a Curse, 2 Coppers, an Estate and a Duchy.

Turn 30 - Omastar68
O plays a Silver.
O buys and gains an Estate.
O skips a draw (because of Raid)
O moves -Card token to Token Limbo.
O draws 3 Silvers and a Library.

This was really bad, like I'm shocked it creates boards this unplayable. No buys or actions, no actions kinda ruins Torturer, practically just a Smithy. Wild Hunt becomes a joke, and no way to get more than 2 cards w/ Library except gaining an action w/ Ironworks, which is ofc more harm than good. I shouldn't have bought that Armory, Silver is the only card worth gaining.

I think we all were too stubborn to play BM, Advisor just gets in the way once you draw them dead, should buy 1 Torturer/other draw(plenty to choose from lol,) and then buy money, pretty much exclusively.

Kinda absurd, has anyone else got such a depressing board?
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Loempiaverkoper

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Re: Funny in a sad, WTH way
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2017, 02:44:12 am »
+1

I'm shocked it creates boards this unplayable.

You've said thing like this before. I remember a comment of you saying: the online game would never give you this much thrashing.

But I think it is all just equal probability on all cards. No conditionals. To me it's the other way around: it is surprising (shocking) that the game is designed such that so many of these random boards actually are interesting! (I would either expect a lot of non-functioning boards or little variety in how they play out.)

So yeah, you get boards like this one. I guess you go torturer money.
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Accatitippi

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Re: Funny in a sad, WTH way
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2017, 02:50:24 am »
+7

I'm a bit rusty, but let me see: I'd shy away from all 3$ and 4$ cards here. Embassy is great for Big Money without trashing, but here it may suffer from Torturer and Raid. Raid is probably worth considering, and Library isn't half bad with Torturer and Raid on board. Notice that playing a Library with 5 cards in hand draws you three cards, not two. (you probably mixed it up with Watchtower)
So, I'd probably get a library if I'm the first to hit 5, or if my opponent bought torturer on his first 5. I'd definitely get torturers if my opponent has catacomb or embassy. If my opponent bought library, I'd probably go for Embassy?
Then depending on deck composition a late Embassy might be sweet.
And you must not forget Raid as the game progresses.
It isn't a terrible board, as far as BM boards go. Turns should go quick with a small number of highly relevant tactical choices.
Of course if Dominion didn't have engines it would suck, but having the occasional BM board is a fun change of pace.

In my time, Big Money boards happened one quarter of the time, and then you had to make do with what little you could find. Today's youth is just spoiled if you ask me. Now please, get off my lawn.  >:(
 :)
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luser

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Re: Funny in a sad, WTH way
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2017, 03:20:19 am »
+3

In old days every board was bm because most cards didn't pass silver test.
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Omastar68

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Re: Funny in a sad, WTH way
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2017, 12:33:21 pm »
0

I'm shocked it creates boards this unplayable.

You've said thing like this before. I remember a comment of you saying: the online game would never give you this much thrashing.

But I think it is all just equal probability on all cards. No conditionals. To me it's the other way around: it is surprising (shocking) that the game is designed such that so many of these random boards actually are interesting! (I would either expect a lot of non-functioning boards or little variety in how they play out.)

So yeah, you get boards like this one. I guess you go torturer money.

Interesting, the reason I'm shocked is cause I almost always see many cards that go together. I've rarely had lots of villages w/o draw(many times that's just been Moat, but more than half the time there'll be an attack(s) w/ Moat.)

W/ Feodum, there's almost always at least decent Silver gaining, and rarely Colonies. That 2nd part also goes for Duke. W/ Gardens, there's usually gaining(often Workshop, and not talking about base games.) Lots of other stuff, like knights not showing up on Colony boards etc.

i read too much into patterns, like my friend gets a lot of boards with Herald, Candlestick Maker, and/or Advisor among others. But that's just luck, not a conspiracy(maybe)  :)
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Omastar68

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Re: Funny in a sad, WTH way
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2017, 12:36:32 pm »
+1

In my time, Big Money boards happened one quarter of the time, and then you had to make do with what little you could find. Today's youth is just spoiled if you ask me. Now please, get off my lawn.  >:(
 :)

fair enuff, but what time was that lol? i rarely play just base games, but those always turn into engine games. Or most of the time, but I guess 2nd edition cards help that.
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Accatitippi

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Re: Funny in a sad, WTH way
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2017, 12:53:43 pm »
+1

In my time, Big Money boards happened one quarter of the time, and then you had to make do with what little you could find. Today's youth is just spoiled if you ask me. Now please, get off my lawn.  >:(
 :)

fair enuff, but what time was that lol? i rarely play just base games, but those always turn into engine games. Or most of the time, but I guess 2nd edition cards help that.

Well, to me it feels like BM made up a very significant proportion of Dominion games up to and maybe including Dark Ages/Guilds. And yes, 2nd edition drastically changed base-only games!  :D
And with time expansion games moved more and more towards engines, maybe with the exception of Hinterlands. I feel like Adventures, Empires, and 2nd editions are responsible for the big push, though.
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jonaskoelker

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Re: Funny in a sad, WTH way
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2017, 03:58:48 am »
0

With time expansion games moved more and more towards engines [...] I feel like Adventures, Empires and 2nd editions are responsible for the big push, though.

I'm willing to believe that engine frequency went up with (almost?) every new expansion, and that it went up more than usual with Adventures and/or Empires. I'm skeptical that it's a big jump, and I'm skeptical that second edition Base/Intrigue did a whole lot. Here are my arguments:

I can definitely see how Champion and +1 action tokens can make engine boards out of otherwise non-engine boards, and Storyteller can do interesting things. Empires, uh, has villages and terminal draw and trashing which increases the likelihood of those features being on a random board [I'm not too familiar with Empires].

I'm less sure about second editions. Base game adds Artisan, Bandit, Harbinger, Merchant, Poacher, Sentry, Vassal. I see two gainers (one is Gold-only), three virtual money cards (two peddler variants, one Conspirator/Herald hybrid), a Lookout/Cartographer hybrid and a cantrip Scavenger. Can you name any one, such that adding it to a non-engine 9-card kingdom turns it into a kingdom with an engine? Is there any one which turns a bad engine into a good engine? Are there any such pairs of cards?

My best bet is adding Sentry as the only trashing on the board. So, uh, base added a trasher that's decent but a bit slow and on the expensive side of trashers, and that's why [say it loud and say it proud] we all play engines now? Maybe Artisan for its gaining with an aftertaste of epsilon percent extra reliability [play Village, Village, Artisan-for-Smithy, Smithy]?

Intrigue gets Courtier, Diplomat, Lurker, Mill, Patrol, Replace, Secret Passage. Same test as before: which of these, when added to a kingdom, takes it from having no (or a bad) engine to having an (or a good) engine?

If Patrol is the only draw and everything else is there, sure. I can see how Secret Passage increases reliability, how Mill rewards overdraw, how 2xLurker is a gainer and how Replace can be a cursing attack if you twist your own arm. Diplomat and Courtier, eh? Not to poo-poo those cards, but on what boards do they make the difference between engine and no engine? And even the engine-friendly cards aside from Patrol... while nice, I don't think they move you from no engine to engine.

So, uh, the second editions add Sentry and Patrol and maybe Artisan as engine enablers? I'm thinking Adventures and Empires are much more responsible, then.

Also, if you watch some of the youtube'd games between Qvist and Adam Horton, you'll see plenty of engines in the pre-Adventures games (first 66 out of 73). Maybe it's not a perfectly random sample, but I think there were plenty of engines before Adventures.

[This is not "you're wrong (on the internet, of all places!)", this is "I half-agree and here's a footnote articulating and presenting arguments for the other half".]
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faust

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Re: Funny in a sad, WTH way
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2017, 04:26:44 am »
0

I'm less sure about second editions. Base game adds Artisan, Bandit, Harbinger, Merchant, Poacher, Sentry, Vassal. I see two gainers (one is Gold-only), three virtual money cards (two peddler variants, one Conspirator/Herald hybrid), a Lookout/Cartographer hybrid and a cantrip Scavenger. Can you name any one, such that adding it to a non-engine 9-card kingdom turns it into a kingdom with an engine? Is there any one which turns a bad engine into a good engine? Are there any such pairs of cards?
Any of the card you listed can do that (except maybe Harbinger), though admittedly the Peddler variants have the least impact. Artisan can gain engine pieces and even play them on the same turn easily, Bandit counters BM and provides TfB fodder, Sentry you already mentioned, Vassal provides economy for high action density engines that lack draw.

Intrigue gets Courtier, Diplomat, Lurker, Mill, Patrol, Replace, Secret Passage. Same test as before: which of these, when added to a kingdom, takes it from having no (or a bad) engine to having an (or a good) engine?
Mill and Secret Passage are meh (though Mill + draw-to-X works quite nicely). Courtier is good +buy and economy if there's any dual types. +buy or no +buy is often all the difference you need to enable engines. Patrol for drawing is obvious, Replace works like Remodel but faster due to topdecking. And Diplomat, man. That's a village, of course it is an engine enabler. If you have any way at all to non-terminally decrease your handsize, you can usually build a draw-to-X engine just from Diplomats.
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Chris is me

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Re: Funny in a sad, WTH way
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2017, 08:09:12 am »
0

How does a deck centered on trashing with Loan, mass gaining Advisors with Ironworks, and finishing with 2-3 Torturers (if you draw deck or near deck, one gets skipped) work here? Probably not well enough without Estate trashing of any kind, but it's worth a little thought, I guess.

Would be like, Loan / Ironworks open into another Loan and maybe another Ironworks, usually gaining Advisor but also a few Silver once Loan has done good work. Seems like it would take too long, but at least Ironworks for gain / Loan for trash is somewhat resistant to discard attacks. \_(ツ)_/
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Re: Funny in a sad, WTH way
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2017, 08:40:43 am »
+1

With 2nd editions it is more about the cards they removed than the cards gained. That said, some of them are strong to really strong.
Out of base, sentry and artisan are really strong. Vassal and bandit are situational strong. Merchant is pretty good. Poacher is a pretty good opener. Harbinger is better than nothing in the vast majority of cases unlike most of the cards replaced.
Out of intrigue, lurker is one of the best 2s (like top 5) because it synergizes with a ton of cards and some of these synergies are really strong. Diplomat is situationally strong, however it is really good at turning a non engine board into one(did you know that diplomat,navigator + hand size reducer(like diplomats reaction)) kinda works as an engine.
Mill is like a better horse traders. Secret passage is an all around good card. Patrol and replace are quite strong. Courtier is better in engines because you can collide it with that 3 type card and engines enjoy gold gainers.
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Limetime

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Re: Funny in a sad, WTH way
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2017, 08:42:22 am »
+1

If advisor is the only Ironworks target you don't want two.
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Accatitippi

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Re: Funny in a sad, WTH way
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2017, 08:45:45 am »
+2

Also, if you watch some of the youtube'd games between Qvist and Adam Horton, you'll see plenty of engines in the pre-Adventures games (first 66 out of 73). Maybe it's not a perfectly random sample, but I think there were plenty of engines before Adventures.

Uh, I'm sorry if this was unclear, but I'm not saying that engines were uncommon before adventures. As I said, it feels like BM composed (sorta kinda and extremely roughly) one quarter of all games?

Anyway, I think you're setting the bar way too high for what constitutes an engine enabler. Sure 2nd ed. didn't have one-card engines such as Page and Peasant, or Menagerie, but they replaced a bunch of mediocre cards (and mediocre cards generally favor BM) with solid, good cards that generally fit much better in engines than in BM decks - with the single possible exception of Patrol, I think. But that's just the nature of terminal draw.
So, I think that the aggregate impact of the changes of 2nd editions is quite big, even though there are no "Engine Champion Cards" in the mix.

And you also must consider that virtually all games of Dominion can feature some cards from base or intrigue - because that's what all players own. So they have an extra big impact on the game as a whole.

I made some analysis of the dominion card pool a while back which you may find relevant to the topic at hand. In particular, this chart shows how 2nd Edition and Empires skewed the balance from terminals to nonterminals, after it had been constant for a long time. (notice that Adventure tokens are not considered here, and they also skewed that balance a lot)



Here are some other fun charts.
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Accatitippi

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Re: Funny in a sad, WTH way
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2017, 08:55:37 am »
0

How does a deck centered on trashing with Loan, mass gaining Advisors with Ironworks, and finishing with 2-3 Torturers (if you draw deck or near deck, one gets skipped) work here? Probably not well enough without Estate trashing of any kind, but it's worth a little thought, I guess.

Would be like, Loan / Ironworks open into another Loan and maybe another Ironworks, usually gaining Advisor but also a few Silver once Loan has done good work. Seems like it would take too long, but at least Ironworks for gain / Loan for trash is somewhat resistant to discard attacks. \_(ツ)_/

I think the approach in general is solid, but leaves me wondering about what this accomplishes here that BM Torturer doesn't.
I mean, you get more reliable at Torturing, but there's no other payload except Ironworksing Advisors for reliability.
I don't think it can catch up quickly enough - also considering that it is forced to buy Loan-unfriendly economy.
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iguanaiguana

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Re: Funny in a sad, WTH way
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2017, 11:07:24 am »
+1

This article is clickbait.

Skumpy

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Re: Funny in a sad, WTH way
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2017, 01:27:35 pm »
0

So I have no math or research to back this claim up, and I wouldn't be surprised if I'm wrong here, but I believe engine capabilities have decreased with every new expansion and will continue to do so. Since the ShIT release with Empires, maybe it's because I don't fight as hard as most to find and play the engine, but I've played plenty of bm games.

Just because the number of engine-enabling cards goes up doesn't mean that engine playability follows suit. I think hope we can all agree that most engines require
1)Solid Trashing
2)Village
3)+draw
4) Payload (of some variety)
5) Gainers

Not a perfect or cumulative list (and I didn't post on the Engine-debating thread from a few weeks back because that's not something I feel qualified to give an opinion on), but I believe the 5 types from above are nearly almost always present on the boards where Engines clearly surpass BM. If a board is missing even one of those 5, the engine still might be the best option, but now the BM at least deserves a lot more consideration.

So why do I mention this? Consider Omastar's game: Library, Embassy, Catacombs, Wild Hunt, Torturer. That's 5 terminal draw cards, so the board effectively goes down from 10 to 6 cards, one of which is Counting House. Omastar also posted another game a week ago featuring Raze, Chapel, Ambassador, Steward, Remake, Altar, and Salvager (Plus Remodel and Expand, which if you don't count as trashers, then maybe you can count them as accomplishing the same purpose as the other). These are isolated and somewhat extreme incidents, but hopefully my point is becoming more clear: the more cards you add to Dominion of the 5 types above, the higher your chances of creating a random 10 card board that features many of 1 or 2 of those types and neglects totally another 1 or 2

I was playing an IRL game with a friend when he advised me I was overbuilding, not because I was waiting too long to green (I was, but that's besides the point), but because adding more engine cards increases the chance that I'll start a turn with all terminals/stop cards. I didn't believe him for a good while, but the math checks out with the right ratio of Villages/draw/stop cards. And I think the same reasoning applies to creating a random board.

If this is still sounds dumb and hopelessly incorrect, consider a bag containing 2 red marbles and 2 blue marbles, and another containing 50 of each. If you draw 2 marbles from each bag, which are you more likely to get 1 of each color from? Bag A is (1/2)*(2/3) * 2 (chances of drawing blue then red + chances of drawing red then blue) = 2/3. Bag B is (49/50) * (50/99) * 2 = 1/2. Same logic applies to the board: adding more marbles of 5 colors increases the odds that drawing 10 out of the bag while result in many sharing the same color.

I'm not at all saying that Dominion is ruined or Engines are never playable. It's still my favorite game, and Engines are still plenty frequent enough that the game is still fun. I just want to try to stop the misconception that more engine cards necessarily means more engine boards.
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Re: Funny in a sad, WTH way
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2017, 03:58:45 pm »
+2

Quote
So I have no math or research to back this claim up, and I wouldn't be surprised if I'm wrong here, but I believe engine capabilities have decreased with every new expansion and will continue to do so. Since the ShIT release with Empires, maybe it's because I don't fight as hard as most to find and play the engine, but I've played plenty of bm games.

Math to show that you are wrong: Effect is close to zero after 3-4 expansions. With your simplification that cards of each type have same effect one could generate board by first selecting types(as probablility of each stays constant) then select cards for each type. Board could be unrealizable because we don't have enough cards of one type in which case we try again. Probability change could be bound by prob of unrealizable board, if there are 5 cards of same type it requires to have 6 cards of one type in board which is unlikely.

Main factor why engines became better is that cards got stronger with expansions. Base has worst gainer(byreaucrat, workshop), draw(moat), peddler variant(market). luckily lack shanty town and trade route.
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Re: Funny in a sad, WTH way
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2017, 06:58:13 pm »
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You guys make my head hurt:(

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Awaclus

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Re: Funny in a sad, WTH way
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2017, 02:12:33 am »
+4

Just because the number of engine-enabling cards goes up doesn't mean that engine playability follows suit. I think hope we can all agree that most engines require
1)Solid Trashing
2)Village
3)+draw
4) Payload (of some variety)
5) Gainers

Not a perfect or cumulative list (and I didn't post on the Engine-debating thread from a few weeks back because that's not something I feel qualified to give an opinion on), but I believe the 5 types from above are nearly almost always present on the boards where Engines clearly surpass BM. If a board is missing even one of those 5, the engine still might be the best option, but now the BM at least deserves a lot more consideration.

That's not really the case. You need payload and either +draw or any trashing at all (doesn't need to be solid necessarily). Splitters are only required if the draw or the payload requires them, and gainers are not required at all.

For instance, if you have Highway and Market Square and Trader in the kingdom, you can definitely play an engine by trashing your Coppers (but not the Estates) with your Trader.

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Re: Funny in a sad, WTH way
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2017, 08:22:13 am »
+2


For instance, if you have Highway and Market Square and Trader in the kingdom, you can definitely play an engine by trashing your Coppers (but not the Estates) with your Trader.
You could also trash Estates with 2 highways in play.
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Skumpy

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Re: Funny in a sad, WTH way
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2017, 06:36:24 pm »
0

Just because the number of engine-enabling cards goes up doesn't mean that engine playability follows suit. I think hope we can all agree that most engines require
1)Solid Trashing
2)Village
3)+draw
4) Payload (of some variety)
5) Gainers

Not a perfect or cumulative list (and I didn't post on the Engine-debating thread from a few weeks back because that's not something I feel qualified to give an opinion on), but I believe the 5 types from above are nearly almost always present on the boards where Engines clearly surpass BM. If a board is missing even one of those 5, the engine still might be the best option, but now the BM at least deserves a lot more consideration.

That's not really the case. You need payload and either +draw or any trashing at all (doesn't need to be solid necessarily). Splitters are only required if the draw or the payload requires them, and gainers are not required at all.

For instance, if you have Highway and Market Square and Trader in the kingdom, you can definitely play an engine by trashing your Coppers (but not the Estates) with your Trader.

I don't really want get into a big discussion about engines with you, considering you have more analysis and experience with your own personal definitions, but I'll give it a go.

First off, if we harken back to the days of old when there were only 5 classifications of a deck, I'd consider that to be more of the combo deck. Whenever I see Highway with Market Square/Market/Grand Market/Worker's Village, you'd better believe I'm going to try to find a way to make it work since that 2 card synergy makes for a fun and simple megaturn. However, if you want to insist that this is an engine, I'll try to break it down by the 5 standards I made up on the spur of the moment.

Trashing: Trader is far from a good trasher normally, I'd agree. But this scenario is a little different than a more common engine for a few reasons. First off, since it's your only terminal, you're never going to have a turn where you have collision and have to neglect playing a payload-esque terminal (like, say, a militia). Next, let's say you do trash one estate for the silvers (because you're going to need to get very lucky to hit 5 otherwise): that means you only need to play the trader 9 times total to guarantee you can draw your whole deck (Trash all but one copper, leaving yourself 4 total stop cards). And that's a guarantee draw - you'll be able to draw most if not all a few turns before then as well. And since your number of stop cards is continuously decreasing, you can play your Trader at an accelerating rate.

Villages: None here, clearly. But when you say "Spltters are only required if the draw or the payload requires them", you make it sound like the number of engines involving draw or payload requiring splitters is comparable to the number that don't require splitters. Which I don't buy at all. 9 engines out of 10, you're going to need at least a couple of splitters, since there just aren't that many great nonterminal payload or nonterminal draw. I'm not saying no engines can function without them - just that there are far more than can't than those that can.

Draw: Normally, I'd consider cantrips to not count as draw, since it doesn't actually increase your hand size. But since you'll be drawing most, if not all, of your deck before too long, I'd give this board half-credit.

Payload: Highway + buys is plenty payload.

Gainers: Market Square (Sorry if I hadn't made it clear before, but when I say gainers, I mean 'cards that enable you to gain more than 1 card a turn. Which includes +buy. And if you did figure out what I meant before and you still thought gainers are not necessary, then to say an engine can outpace BM when you're only gaining 1 card a turn, then that engine had better have good trashing and some very good payload other than +$, which in turn will probably need some +action and +card to enable it. Meaning that engine will very likely need to satisfy the other 4 categories).

So that totals .5 + 0 + .5 + 1 + 1 = 3   
I might've been able to get away with rating trashing and draw higher too. But I don't consider a Highway/Market Square to be representative of the standard engine. Also, I stand by what I said before with

I believe the 5 types from above are nearly almost always present on the boards where Engines clearly surpass BM. If a board is missing even one of those 5, the engine still might be the best option, but now the BM at least deserves a lot more consideration.

Play the Highway/Market Square (or most engines with not all of the 5 components) against a sub level 40 player who will just play a standard Smithy-BM game. You'll clearly win but the final score will be a lot closer, you'll have to play much more accurately, and you won't have as much room for bad luck

Please don't think I'm an anti-engine person because of these posts. I'm not very good at playing engines myself, but I still think an engine-variation is the correct play 80,90% of the time. But I do have to say one last very controversial thing: just because an engine is the CORRECT play doesn't mean it's the correct play FOR YOU. There are complicated engine boards where players in the top 10 or 20 so can make something out of what looks like nothing, but if you're ranked significantly below that and you try to follow, you're going to make mistakes (I can say from experience). That's a fact, right up there with death and taxes. And if you're not playing the engine perfectly on a board that requires a lot of thought and effort to make it work well at all, then  a simple bm could give you an equal chance as your half-realized engine (Not that I'm saying you'll win. Play bm against a top-10 on an engine board, and it's a forgone conclusion). But as a mediocre player, for people around my skill level, if it's not obvious how long an engine will take to build or how powerful it has the potential to be, even after trying to use bm-draw as a benchmark, that should be an indicator that if you don't trust yourself in a competitive match to play it perfectly, at least give consideration to the bm.

Quote
So I have no math or research to back this claim up, and I wouldn't be surprised if I'm wrong here, but I believe engine capabilities have decreased with every new expansion and will continue to do so. Since the ShIT release with Empires, maybe it's because I don't fight as hard as most to find and play the engine, but I've played plenty of bm games.

Math to show that you are wrong: Effect is close to zero after 3-4 expansions. With your simplification that cards of each type have same effect one could generate board by first selecting types(as probablility of each stays constant) then select cards for each type. Board could be unrealizable because we don't have enough cards of one type in which case we try again. Probability change could be bound by prob of unrealizable board, if there are 5 cards of same type it requires to have 6 cards of one type in board which is unlikely.

I'm dumb and bad at math, so I need you to hold my hand and walk me through this to make sure I'm getting you correctly. First, let's say my simplification that cards of the same type do the same thing, and also that cards will only satisfy one type, is offset by that not all cards will even fit into an engine strategy at all (off the top of my head, Taxman, Prince, Counting House...there's three cards that will rarely see use in an engine). You're saying that deciding if an engine is playable is equivalent to first generating 10 types of cards (based on what I came up with for the need types), and checking to see if we did indeed get 5 different types in those 10. It's your last sentence that confuses me - getting 6 copies of one type isn't the only way that we can get a not-so-perfect engine. It could be a board with something like 3 of A, 2 of B, 2 of C, 3 of D, none of E. Probably still an engine, but again, now one that's much more comparable with a bm strategy.

You guys make my head hurt:(

That's 2 of us, believe me.


TL:DR
In my opinion*:
All of 5 of the card types - great, play an engine!
4: Play the engine if you're really good at Dominion. Otherwise, give some consideration, make sure you know what you're doing, think about every turn.
<=3,3.5 - Time to really think about that BM
*All with exceptions, such as Highway/Market Square. Also, plenty of weird cards like Procession and Remodel twist around what constitutes an engine in the first place.




Everybody, feel free to give me hell below!
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Re: Funny in a sad, WTH way
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2017, 08:38:35 pm »
+5

TL:DR
In my opinion*:
All of 5 of the card types - great, play an engine!
4: Play the engine if you're really good at Dominion. Otherwise, give some consideration, make sure you know what you're doing, think about every turn.
<=3,3.5 - Time to really think about that BM
*All with exceptions, such as Highway/Market Square. Also, plenty of weird cards like Procession and Remodel twist around what constitutes an engine in the first place.


Let me quote one of our most sage (or is the mystical?) posters in response.

If you are not Marin, I would not recommend to try the engine.

This is the most dangerous sort of nonsense to listen to if you care at all about improving your Dominion game. If you always take the easy way out, if you never try to build an engine that's slightly more difficult to execute than Wharf-Fishing Village, if you never try something completely ridiculous even, afraid that you might horribly fail (which you inevitably will, over and over and over again), you will never ever become like Marin, let alone become much better than he ever was, which is certainly possible: Dominion play is in its infancy.

What holds most players back is not a lack of innate intelligence or talent, but a failure to express their playfulness and curiosity, lazy habits of thought that process boards in terms of obvious stock-strategies in stead of having an eye for each kingdom's particular splendor, lacking any sort of healthy contempt for conventional wisdom, not trusting their own experience more than anything, but at the same time lacking the courage to go completely against it, just to try out something new. And what's perhaps worst of all is saying to yourself things like "I'm no Marin"; it's at that moment, with that exact phrase, that you resign yourself to mediocrity, as you'll soon start building an identity around it, and from that point onward, whenever your playful spirit wakens and graces you with a creative idea, you'll have this voice in your head that laughs at it and has you saying "nah, that's just not me". Most players, in short, simply deprive themselves of the freedom to discover what's possible.
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Re: Funny in a sad, WTH way
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2017, 01:27:21 am »
0

just because an engine is the CORRECT play doesn't mean it's the correct play FOR YOU. There are complicated engine boards where players in the top 10 or 20 so can make something out of what looks like nothing
This may be better for your rating in the short term but playing those engines will make you a better player.

[Edit: the quotes in JWs post say it better than me]

Also your engineneness scale isn't very useful nor is it very accurate.

If I have a board with rebuild and some moat engine with like shanty town moat Vassal and forager I am not going to go with the engine even though it is a 5(or 4)
« Last Edit: June 18, 2017, 11:49:32 pm by Limetime »
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Re: Funny in a sad, WTH way
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2017, 03:34:45 am »
0

Let me quote one of our most sage (or is the mystical?) posters in response.

If you are not Marin, I would not recommend to try the engine.

This is the most dangerous sort of nonsense to listen to if you care at all about improving your Dominion game. If you always take the easy way out, if you never try to build an engine that's slightly more difficult to execute than Wharf-Fishing Village, if you never try something completely ridiculous even, afraid that you might horribly fail (which you inevitably will, over and over and over again), you will never ever become like Marin, let alone become much better than he ever was, which is certainly possible: Dominion play is in its infancy.

What holds most players back is not a lack of innate intelligence or talent, but a failure to express their playfulness and curiosity, lazy habits of thought that process boards in terms of obvious stock-strategies in stead of having an eye for each kingdom's particular splendor, lacking any sort of healthy contempt for conventional wisdom, not trusting their own experience more than anything, but at the same time lacking the courage to go completely against it, just to try out something new. And what's perhaps worst of all is saying to yourself things like "I'm no Marin"; it's at that moment, with that exact phrase, that you resign yourself to mediocrity, as you'll soon start building an identity around it, and from that point onward, whenever your playful spirit wakens and graces you with a creative idea, you'll have this voice in your head that laughs at it and has you saying "nah, that's just not me". Most players, in short, simply deprive themselves of the freedom to discover what's possible.

And I'm totally fine with that. I'm just speaking specifically if you're playing competitively and winning is your number 1 priority (whether that's justified or not is besides the point), then it's reasonable to play with what you know over what you don't know. If I've created a perception that I personally play simple stuff, I can see how that happened, but believe me, I don't do that.

Having said that, I feel like I improve more not by experimenting and playing bad engines myself but by seeing/hearing others play good engines, whether I'm the opponent or somebody else. If I play somebody worse than me (according to rankings anyways), and I lose with a faulty engine to their bm, that doesn't tell me what works, it tells me what doesn't work and even discourages me from trying it again because it didn't seem realizable. I need to see somebody else play it well to convince me that it is indeed a strategy (assuming I wasn't successful with it).

If I have a board with rebuild and some moat engine with like shanty town moat Vassal and forager I am not going to go with the engine even though it is a 5(or 4)

Firstly, Rebuild's an exceptional case. More often that not, straight Rebuild will win. When Rebuild came up once, my opponent asked if we could skip it because it's such a game warping card, to which I instantly agreed (though the alternate Sea Hag/Smithy that actually happened that game wasn't much fun either). I suspect I'm not the only person who's done that here.

Secondly, speaking as a mediocre player, those 4 cards don't sound engine-worthy to me in the first place. I would play Big Money, or at least Forager-Shanty Town-Big Money or even just Shanty Town-BM, over that engine because I believe it would be faster and the engine would take too long to build. If I lose that game to you, that's because my analysis fell short, and now that I see it does work, now I have an increased understanding of how to play engines better (a loss that probably will happen: see below).


Side note relating to my first post here:
I've taken statistics so I understand that this is a very very small sample size, but in my last 3 competitve matches against Seprix, markus, and Limetime, I would consider 7 of the 16 games played to have BM as the best strategy (you could argue that Prince-Envoy is an exceptional BM case and Caravan-Festival-Outpost w/o trashing or any other played terminals is probably closer to engine than BM, now that I think about it).

Limetime, take the game we played tonight (in a match where I was unsurprisingly and thoroughly put in my place): if I tell you (you meaning the reader, not you personally Limetime) there's a board with Develop, Procession, Mining Village, Artificer, and Market Square, wouldn't you think that that board is probably screaming engine? I thought so too, only to get crushed by a simple Militia+Relic pin because I severely underestimated the lack of draw. There was also a Wall game where we both began by trashing down with Loan with Scavenger and Trader for more support before we parted paths: I went for a Remodel-Hoard approach, Limetime went for the Oracle-BM (I lost). And finally, a simple game that began with Remake thinning (picking up some Schemes along the way) before my genius brain calculated that Noble-Brigand-Delve would swiftly and certainly defeat Merchant Guild+Peddler.
 
That was half a match of BM, and based on prior experiences from this year, I would say at least 30-40% of all the games I've played have been similar. I play Engines when I think they can work, but I play plenty of BM when I don't see anything on the board that I think can beat the less complicated approach.

And if when I say BM you think of something much simpler....sorry.
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Awaclus

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Re: Funny in a sad, WTH way
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2017, 07:10:47 am »
0

Please don't think I'm an anti-engine person because of these posts. I'm not very good at playing engines myself, but I still think an engine-variation is the correct play 80,90% of the time. But I do have to say one last very controversial thing: just because an engine is the CORRECT play doesn't mean it's the correct play FOR YOU. There are complicated engine boards where players in the top 10 or 20 so can make something out of what looks like nothing, but if you're ranked significantly below that and you try to follow, you're going to make mistakes (I can say from experience). That's a fact, right up there with death and taxes. And if you're not playing the engine perfectly on a board that requires a lot of thought and effort to make it work well at all, then  a simple bm could give you an equal chance as your half-realized engine (Not that I'm saying you'll win. Play bm against a top-10 on an engine board, and it's a forgone conclusion). But as a mediocre player, for people around my skill level, if it's not obvious how long an engine will take to build or how powerful it has the potential to be, even after trying to use bm-draw as a benchmark, that should be an indicator that if you don't trust yourself in a competitive match to play it perfectly, at least give consideration to the bm.

Well, I certainly don't think engine is correct 90% of time (or 93% or anything in between, for that matter). 80%, maybe, but even that sounds like it could be an overstatement.

Your controversial thing is useful for gaining levels on the leaderboard, but which is more important to you: gaining levels on the leaderboard or actually getting better at Dominion? Because playing the engine will help you towards the latter goal a lot more.

Also, you should certainly not go through a thought process of "well, I'm lust a level 40 player, so I shouldn't play the engine here" not only is the level not a direct representation of Dominion skill, Dominion skill itself is not just a one-dimensional value that goes from 0 to 100 or whatever, but different people are better at different things. It happens sometimes that someone who's below me on the leaderboard beats me with an engine I deemed to be worse than whatever I was doing and only after seeing it in action, I also realize that it was actually better (i.e. not just a matter of luck), and it also happens in the other direction. In my case, it seems like I tend to underestimate boards where you can build an engine somewhat easily but the payload isn't great, whereas my opponents tend to underestimate boards where the payload is great but it's difficult to put the engine together.

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Re: Funny in a sad, WTH way
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2017, 02:08:16 pm »
0

Prince is one of the best engine enablers out there. What nonsense is it that says it won't see much use in an engine?
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Awaclus

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Re: Funny in a sad, WTH way
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2017, 02:14:04 pm »
0

Prince is one of the best engine enablers out there. What nonsense is it that says it won't see much use in an engine?

Well, technically it is very close to automatically enabling an engine on every board, but it's such a weak card that it actually doesn't work that way in practice.
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