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Author Topic: An "Empty the Supply" Variant  (Read 638 times)

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JacquesTheBard

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An "Empty the Supply" Variant
« on: June 10, 2017, 01:40:18 am »
+5

Am I allowed to submit a puzzle if I don't have my own solutions worked out yet?  A puzzle with 13 radically different variations?

Whatever, let's do this.

One of the most popular challenges on this subforum is the "Empty the Supply as quickly as possible" challenge. We have plenty of variants of it. Trying to reduce the number of needed turns, trying to carry out such a solution in Dominion online... one might consider this old problem thoroughly solved.

But I was bored and came up with a variant that makes it more challenging. What if you were only allowed to create your solution using cards / events from a single expansion? So far I've gotten close to developing an 8 turn solution for Adventures. I tried to do something similar for Prosperity and Empires, but couldn't quite get it to work.

If we count the 1st and 2nd editions of Dominion and Intrigue as expansions, we have 13 different expansions. 13 different solutions to the single-expansion supply emptying problem. As for special rules... I recommend we stick to only 2 events when finding solutions for Adventures or Empires. Everything else is fair game. Some expansions will have more interesting solutions than others (Alchemy in particular looks like a real slog), so only solve the ones you think would be particularly fun for you to try your hand at.

I hope you enjoy this challenge! Well... 13 challenges, technically.
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liopoil

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Re: An "Empty the Supply" Variant
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2017, 02:06:17 am »
0

I like the idea... but for most expansions it's going to take more turns than I would like to count. The only expansions where I think there's much of a chance of it being less than, say, 17 turns are prosperity, dark ages, adventures, and empires... I'd love to be surprised though
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JacquesTheBard

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Re: An "Empty the Supply" Variant
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2017, 05:47:38 am »
+1

Like I said, Alchemy is garbage. Most expansions surprise me, though. Remember that Hinterlands has Haggler, which is quite good for this sort of thing.

Cornucopia is probably the most frustrating to work on. Everything that gives buys or gains decreases your handsize, and all draw is Menagerie or Hunting Party, so you need to constantly keep in mind what your hand looks like to play optimally.

Dark Ages is incredibly intimidating. There are so many amazing ways to gain cards through Procession-Fortress chains, Market Square tricks, Trashing Feodums and Hunting Grounds, and Beggar for quick elimination of copper. I know it's there; I just can't put it together.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2017, 05:49:34 am by JacquesTheBard »
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JacquesTheBard

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Re: An "Empty the Supply" Variant
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2017, 02:05:37 am »
+3

So I can DEFINITELY get Adventures (with one player) in 8 turns. I'm trying to optimize the solution, but in practical terms I'm just changing the amount of money I have on the final turn. The supply gets emptied on that turn no matter what. Should I sideline the whole optimization thing and just share what I have?
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luser

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Re: An "Empty the Supply" Variant
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2017, 07:43:45 am »
0

Base is bit sloggy but its interesting that mine is great here as it trashes treasures without decreasing handsize.
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JacquesTheBard

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Re: An "Empty the Supply" Variant
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2017, 07:42:15 pm »
+1

I've put in a little work on base. Calling it sloggy is an understatement, but it's far from the most difficult set to work with. Not sure if I use Mine, but interestingly the solutions for 1st and 2nd edition BOTH incorporate cards unique to their edition. At the very least, Artisan and Chancellor bring a lot to the table.

It occurs to me that I still haven't really decided on limitations like "number of players" or "number of events you can use in expansions with events." That's kind of a big deal! Honestly, though, pick whatever strategy you want. For now, I'm gonna solve for single player and 2 events, and maybe go for the more complex solution later.

Some thoughts on the challenges in each expansion:

Base: It's not too complicated, just really time consuming. Most of your gains ultimately come from buys or workshops. You won't get the kind of mega turns other expansions offer, but thanks to Cellar or Chancellor (your preference) you don't really get stuck either.

Intrigue: Bridge and Ironworks are awesome cards. The main challenge here is continuing to play your deck when you're finally forced to start going after the copper pile. Sifting isn't great in Intrigue.

Seaside: Haven't done much work here yet. You're gonna need a lot of Buys here. Luckily, you have Outpost. (Yes, I consider Outpost and Mission legitimate ways to reduce your overall turns)

Alchemy: Honestly, the sloggiest period. If you have 2 players and Possession, that might speed things up. Otherwise, you're out of luck. University doesn't help much, so you need to rely on Herbalist and Transmute. Alchemy sucks.

Prosperity: Probably one of the easiest to do! The only real question is what to prioritize. I'm still not sure whether to include Bank (for Income) or Hoard (to help empty the Gold pile.)

Cornucopia: super complicated. Gains and buys here tend to reduce your handsize, and the draw is Menagerie and Hunting Party. They're good draw, but they mean that you need to draw exactly the right cards in exactly the right order...

Hinterlands: The one thing I know for sure is you need Haggler. You REALLY need Haggler.

Dark Ages: ... I haven't even tried to solve this one. I'm sure you can do stuff fast here, I just don't know the best way to pull that off. There's SO MANY TRICKS HERE!

Guilds: Boring. Stonemason is awesome, and Merchant Guild gives you all the money you want, but it's still a slog.

Adventures: I won't give away much because I actually HAVE a solution and I intend to post it. That said, the entire strategy here revolves around what Events you choose. I had to make hard decisions here. If I could use more events than 2, this would be FAST.

Empires: some NICE megaturns here! Fortune gives you all the money you need, City Quarter draws everything, and Villa is Villa.
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liopoil

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Re: An "Empty the Supply" Variant
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2017, 08:51:41 pm »
0

Do you have turn estimates for any besides adventures? Also, do you have to limit yourself to 2 empty piles before the last turn?
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JacquesTheBard

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Re: An "Empty the Supply" Variant
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2017, 04:13:37 pm »
0

I can ALMOST get Prosperity on turn 8, so at the bare minimum it can be done in 9. And yes, normal endgame conditions apply.

I'll try to format and post my Adventures solution tonight.

Edit: I am TERRIBLE at formatting.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 02:04:52 am by JacquesTheBard »
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Holger

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Re: An "Empty the Supply" Variant
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2017, 03:30:14 pm »
0

I've put in a little work on
Alchemy: Honestly, the sloggiest period. If you have 2 players and Possession, that might speed things up. Otherwise, you're out of luck. University doesn't help much, so you need to rely on Herbalist and Transmute. Alchemy sucks.
Actually, you need all three to be able to (barely) empty the last 16 piles in one turn:
3 Transmutes can empty 3 piles, 2 Universities empty Herb. and Apprentice, and 10 Herbalists give you 11 buys for 11 more piles. (Familiar does nothing in single-player).

And even with 11 buys each turn, you'll need at least 19 turns to buy all the 195 cards you can't otherwise gain.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 03:49:09 pm by Holger »
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liopoil

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Re: An "Empty the Supply" Variant
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2017, 03:39:49 pm »
+1

I've put in a little work on
Alchemy: Honestly, the sloggiest period. If you have 2 players and Possession, that might speed things up. Otherwise, you're out of luck. University doesn't help much, so you need to rely on Herbalist and Transmute. Alchemy sucks.
Actually, you need all three to be able to (barely) empty the last 16 piles in one turn:
3 Transmutes can empty 3 piles, 2 Universities empty Herb. and Apprentice, and 10 Herbalists give you 11 buys for 11 more piles. (Familiar does nothing in single-player).

And even with 11 buys each turn, you'll need at least 18 turns to buy all the 179 cards you can't otherwise gain.
10 universities only gives you 11 actions, so you'll need golem as well. But actually you're only leaving out two cards, so put in everything but possession and familiar.
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JacquesTheBard

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Re: An "Empty the Supply" Variant
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2017, 12:57:58 am »
+3

It's time.

My solution is probably not perfect. I don't know if I formatted it in a way that's easy to follow. With apologies out of the way:

In a solitaire game of Adventures, with only 2 events, we can empty the supply in 8 turns.

The Kingdom:
Artificer (A)
Bridge Troll (B)
Coin of the Realm (Cotr)
Magpie (Mag)
Messenger (Mess)
Miser (Mis)
Royal Carriage (R)
Storyteller (S)
Treasure Trove (T)
The last one doesn't matter. My solution only involves the first nine.


Copper is abbreviated as C; Estate as E.

The Events around which everything hinges:

Traveling Fair
Inheritance


The solution itself:

Turn 1: CCCCE. Buy Mess, gain Mag with it.
Turn 2: CCCEE. Buy Cotr.
Turn 3: MessMagCCCotr. Play Mag, draw E and reveal E. Gain a Mag.
Play Mess, discard deck. Play treasure and put Cotr on the tavern mat. Buy B and C.
Turn 4: MessBMagMagC. Play both Mags, draw CCCC. Play B, call Cotr, Play Mess and discard deck.
We have $7, 3 buys, and cost reduction. Buy Inheritance and choose Royal Carriage. Buy CC.
Turn 5: EEEMagMess. Play Mag1, draw Mag2 and reveal C. Play Mag2, draw C and reveal Cotr.
Hand is EEEMessCCCotr. Play all E as R. Play Mess and call E 3 times. Discard deck.
We have $11, 6 buys, and cost reduction. Buy Mess and gain B. Buy B. Buy 4xE.
Our deck is now: 10xC, 7xE, 2xMag, 2xMess, 3xB, Cotr (on mat)

Turn 6: 4xEMag. Play all 4xE. Play Mag, call all E. The deck is: MagMessEEEB.
We draw MagMessEEE, and gain 5xMag. Play Mess and discard deck.
Play 3xE. Play Mag and call 3E for four Mag plays. We draw 4xMag, and reveal 4xC.
Play another Mag, draw Mag#7 (the last one) and reveal C.
Play all 4 remaining Mag, drawing BBBMess and revealing 4xC.
Our hand is 3xB, Mess, 9xC. Play all actions, discard remainder of deck.
We have $13, 6 buys, and cost reduction x3. Buy last 4xE in supply. Buy Mess, gain B.
$12 and 1 buy remain. Buy Travelling Fair 3 times: $6 and 4 buys. Buy RRACotr.
Our deck: 11xE, 10xC, 3xMess, 7xMag, 5xB (3 are in play), 2xCotr (1 on mat), 2xR, A.

Turn 7: BBMagMagMag. Top of deck has ACotrEEE. Play BB, call Cotr, Play 3xMag. Draw A, reveal Cotr, draw EE, gain 2xMag.
Play EE. Play A and call EE.
For the next part, we will be numbering the cards so as not to lose track.
Draw E, gain and draw A#2 and R#3, gain R#4.
Play E and R#3. Play A#2 and call on it. Draw R#4, gain and draw A#3 and R#5, gain R#6.
A#3, call R4 and R5 on it, draw R6, gain/draw A4 R7, gain R8.
A4, call R6 and R7 on it, draw R8, gain/draw R9 (the last one due to Inheritance) and A5. Gain A6.
Note that at this point, our hand is Cotr, R8, R9, A5. We’ve made 12 coins via artificer.
A5, call R8/R9. Draw A6, draw/gain A7 A8, gain S. 15 coins.
Play A7, draw S gain T. Play A8, draw T gain A9. 17 coins.
Play Storyteller, targeting Cotr and T. Spend a total of 21 coins. Draw 21 cards.
Put Cotr on mat, gain C and G.
Our deck (not yet played) includes 3xMess, 8xE, 11C, R1 and R2, A9, 6xMag, G.
We draw 8xE, R1, R2, A9, 6xMag, 3xMess, G. Remaining deck is 11C.
Play R1, R2, and 8xE. Play A9 and call it 8 times. Each time, gain Miser.
We draw C and 8 Misers, Leaving 1 Miser on deck.
Play Magpie. Draw Miser, reveal C.
Remaining Magpies draw remaining C.
Our hand is now 9xMiser, 11xC, G, 3xMess, and 2 Royal Carriages on mat.
Play Misers and call remaining Rs on them to put 11 C on the mat.
Play 3xMess and G. We have $9 from the last Artificer.
$18 and 9 buys. Buy Travelling Fair 9 times for 18 buys.
Buy Mess (gain S), 6xCotr, 6xT, 5xS

Current deck: 11xC (on mat), 8 Cotr (1 on mat), 7xT, 7xS, 5xB (2 in play), 9xMis, 4xMess, 9xMag,
11xE, 9xR, 9xA, G.

Turn 8: Start with 5xMag. Draw 4xMag and S, revealing Mag (to gain last Mag) 2xCotr, and 2xT.
Play 4xMag to draw 3xB and S. Reveal 5xT. Current hand is 7xT, 2xCotr, 2xS, and 3xB.
Play S on CotrCotrT. Gain GC, put 2xCotr on mat, draw SMess 3xA.
Play S on 3xT. Gain 3xG, 3xC, draw S 6xA. Hand: 2xS, 3xT, 9xA, Mess, 3xB.
Play S on 3xT. Gain 3xG, 3xC, draw 7xE. Hand: S, 9xA, Mess, 3xB, 7xE.
Play 3xB and call 2Cotr (1 left on mat). We have 2 actions.
Play A. Draw S, gain A. Play A, Draw A, gain T. Continue to play 8xA, drawing T, gaining AND          drawing T, 2xB, 2xCotr, 2xS. Gain, but do NOT draw Miser.
Hand is 2xT, 2xB, 2xCotr, 4xS, Mess, 7xE.
Play Mess, discard deck. Play S on TTCotr. Gain 2xC, 2xG, and draw (10+2+6) 19 cards.
So far, we have played 4xS, 9xT, 10xA, 9xMag, 3xB, 3xCotr (2 called, 2 on mat), Mess.
Remaining deck contains 9xC, 10xG, 4xE, 9xR, 10xMis, 3xMes, 2xB, Mag, 1xS, 6xCotr.
We draw: S, 5xCotr, Mag, 10xG, E. Hand is 5xS, 6xCotr, Mag, BB, 8xE, 10xG.
Remaining deck is 9xC, 3xE, 3xMess, 10xMis, 9xR.
Play Mag, draw E reveal C.
Play S on 3xCotr, draw 4C.
Play S on 3xCotr, draw 4C.
Play S on 3xG, draw EE 8xR
Play S on 3xG, draw R 9xMis
Play S on G, draw Mis 3xMess.
Our hand is now 9xC, 3xG, 2xB, 11xE, 9xR, 10xMis, 3xMess. There are 8 Cotr on the mat.
Play 9xMiser, putting 9xC on the mat. Call 5 Cotr for actions. We should have 2 actions now.
Play all E and R. Play last Miser and call them for 21 effective Miser plays. Choose coins.
With 20C on the tavern mat, this equates to $420.
Play 2xB and 3xMess, calling Cotr as needed. We have enough.
On our final buy phase, we have (420+6+9) $435. We have (7+4+1) 12 buys.
There are 7 Bridge Trolls in play.
Purchase Travelling Fair 213 times, leaving $9 for provinces.
Provinces cost 1, and everything else is free. We have 225 buys. Empty the Supply!


Edit: Literally right after I post this, I think "I wonder what would've happened if I'd done X instead" and accidentally come up with another solution that might be 1 turn faster. Oh well. At least I wrote up SOMETHING.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2017, 01:21:47 am by JacquesTheBard »
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JacquesTheBard

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Re: An "Empty the Supply" Variant
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2017, 05:38:50 pm »
+1

I'm working on a solution to base dominion now just to see how long the "normal" expansions can take. Might take a few days, I suspect. In the meantime... is anyone still interested in this thing? It's not getting many responses. :/
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O

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Re: An "Empty the Supply" Variant
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2017, 06:10:53 pm »
0

I'm very interested!
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ghostofmars

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Re: An "Empty the Supply" Variant
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2017, 12:04:28 pm »
+3

Here is a 6 turn solution for Alchemy. This uses that you ruled that possession turns do not count and that in a single player game you are the "player to your left". Then it boils down to setting up Golem + 2x Possession, which gives you infinite turns and hence allows you to empty the supply.

T1/2 open potion + herbalist
T3 Herb EECP -> Apothecary (put P back)
T4 CCCCP -> Golem
rest of deck is ECC, so we reshuffle to draw the Golem
T5 ECC + Golem Apothecary
- play Apothecary to draw CCCP
- play Golem to play the Herbalist and discard the deck
- buy Possession
T6 We play the first possession and buy another one, using Golem and Apothecary for sufficient draw and to discard the deck.
T6 (possessed) We have a deck containing Golem and 2 Possessions that we can play indefinitely to increase the number of turns.
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JacquesTheBard

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Re: An "Empty the Supply" Variant
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2017, 05:15:04 pm »
0

Here is a 6 turn solution for Alchemy. This uses that you ruled that possession turns do not count and that in a single player game you are the "player to your left". Then it boils down to setting up Golem + 2x Possession, which gives you infinite turns and hence allows you to empty the supply.

T1/2 open potion + herbalist
T3 Herb EECP -> Apothecary (put P back)
T4 CCCCP -> Golem
rest of deck is ECC, so we reshuffle to draw the Golem
T5 ECC + Golem Apothecary
- play Apothecary to draw CCCP
- play Golem to play the Herbalist and discard the deck
- buy Possession
T6 We play the first possession and buy another one, using Golem and Apothecary for sufficient draw and to discard the deck.
T6 (possessed) We have a deck containing Golem and 2 Possessions that we can play indefinitely to increase the number of turns.

It didn't occur to me that you could possess yourself. That's quite an impressive trick! I might double check the rules on that one, but honestly I'm relieved we were able to get this appalling expansion out of the way so quickly!
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liopoil

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Re: An "Empty the Supply" Variant
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2017, 06:29:41 pm »
0

Most solo puzzles we've had don't allow possession turns, but makes sense to make an exception here because it's so much nicer.
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ghostofmars

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Re: An "Empty the Supply" Variant
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2017, 07:55:52 am »
+1

Though not a solution yet, here is an idea for the first few turn with Guilds

Kingdom: Candlestick Maker (CM), Stonemason (SM), Doctor (D), Masterpiece (Mp), Herald (H), Journeyman (JM), Baker (B), Merchant Guild (MG), ?, ?

ct = coin token
  • 5C + 1ct -> D trash EEE
  • 4C + D -> trash CCC, buy Mp, gain S
  • SCC Mp Doc -> trash CC, buy MG
  • SCC Mp MG -> buy Her, CM, gain 2ct
  • hand: S Mp D H CM
    • play H, drawing C and playing MG
    • play CM
    • play D trashing C
    5$ 3ct 3buy: buy SM + 2H, 2C gaining 3ct
  • hand: S CM HHH
    • play H1, drawing Mp, playing D, trashing CCC
    • play H2, drawing MG, playing SM, trashing Mp, gaining 2CM
    • play H3, drawing and playing the new CM
    • play CM and MG
    3$ 8ct 5buy: SM + MG + JM, H, 3C, gaining 5ct
  • hand: CM HHHH
    • play CM1
    • play H1, drawing SM1, playing D, trashing CCC
    • play H2, drawing S, playing JM, drawing CM2, CM3, MG1
    • play H3, drawing MG2, playing SM2, trash S, gaining 2CM
    • play H4, drawing CM4, playing CM5
    • play CM2-5, MG1-2
    2$ 10ct 7buys: SM + 2H, MG, 5C, gaining 14ct
This would then explode very quickly, in two turns or so you should have a deck that can consistently buy ~20 cards and trash them. Then it's just a matter of running the engine another ~10 turns to deplete the supply.

Things that could be optimized: In turn 4, you could buy SM + 2H, C instead of H, CM and then gain the CM by trashing the Mp. There are occasionally unspent coin tokens that could be used to increase the speed.
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