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Author Topic: Comparing power cards  (Read 8757 times)

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luser

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Re: Comparing power cards
« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2017, 07:07:27 am »
+1

First remake-chapel is one of best openings here. It gives early economy, best trashing if they don't collide and you could turn chapel into silver after trashing most of deck.

Ambassador sucks when there is better trashing like in this game, It gives bad economy and any junk will be trashed next turn.  Here I would get remodel/stewards/lost cities mid game and with milling provinces game will be quickly over.

Cultist-bm is usually best thing on board with cultist. Unopposed with average luck it delivers all ruins by turn 10. Dealing with that gives so much time to get 5-6 provinces with cultist bm. Torturer isn't even close unless you could get lost arts/cotr.

Also jack/donate tends to be lot of times best strategy as it piles provinces. Its better than bonfire-jack. 
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JThorne

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Re: Comparing power cards
« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2017, 11:32:58 am »
+6

Quote
Giving them one copper over one estate seems extremely silly: you're -1 coin, he's +1 coin after that if that copper hits a jack

Jack is a trasher. In some games, Jack is meh because you don't want the secondary benefit from Jack as silver. But that doesn't change the fact that Jack removes unwanted cards from your card via trashing. They are separate points and combining them only serves to confuse, not illuminate.

treating bandit camp as a necropolis with +3 attached falls into the classic F.DS mistake I see all the time: a large portion of the time your engine is not drawing your whole deck. Even if it is, it likely wasn't originally.  Even if you were originally, the Spoils is put into your discard and the card you're drawing is still at the same proportions to be an engine card.  So these obtuse analogies don't end up being that useful in practice.

I've been mulling over this response for a bit. I'd like to start by saying that I enjoy discussing all of the subtleties of Dominion and the many approaches to optimizing play, even where there is disagreement. And because there are many players with many levels of experience and ability, I almost always state my ideas and observations in the form of a question, explicitly asking others to weigh in.

In this case, my thoughts have been met with "silly," "confusing," "mistake" and "obtuse." It's hard not to be taken aback. I was simply trying to offer some other ways of thinking about cards.

When a relatively inexperienced user starts a thread with a question like this, I think it's important to try to help them expand their thinking. Most beginning users can play simple strategies, particularly BM. Learning all of the complex engine variations takes a lot more exploration and more patience and discipline, and learning to successfully evaluate a kingdom and decide on the appropriate path is incredibly difficult and subtle; too much emphasis placed on individual cards can create tunnel vision in less experienced players.

So, in the interest of clarity, I would like to revisit some of the points above in as non-confrontational a manner as I can muster.

I don't think I would use "+1 coin" as a description for someone giving you a Copper, no matter what the circumstance. Would you say that Mountebank gives you a coin?

You seemed to state that Jack is a trasher with Silver-gain as a secondary benefit? Jack only trashes some of the time and always gains a Silver. He seems more like a Silver gainer with occasional trashing/sifting as a secondary benefit. The trashing and Silver gain are not "separate points" because Jack isn't a thinner. His trashing/gaining has a very particular singular effect: To increase your average money density.

I did explicitly say "for deck drawing purposes" when talking about the pitfall of Bandit Camp. I'm not sure I would call it a mistake to strongly emphasize the importance of deck-drawing engines. They aren't just a little bit better than engines that only draw some of your deck. They're exponentially better. In fact, some players would say that if you're playing a bunch of actions but not drawing deck, it's not really an engine.

Again, that's something newer players have a hard time learning. Being patient and not just buying Provinces as soon as you start hitting $8 takes discipline. Seeing what happens when you can draw your whole deck reliably and plan out exactly what you're going to buy on every turn, not to mention make sure to always, every turn, play that exactly one copy of [insert attack card here] that you have in your deck. It's engines like that that make it so that when you see Ambassador and Jack in a same kingdom, you're almost always going to use the Ambassador if the engine is even remotely viable. Sure, Jack-BM might beat Ambassador-BM, but how often is that really the choice? Was it Stef who said don't play a 1-card kingdom? Or a 9-card kingdom? Or something?



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Jack Rudd

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Re: Comparing power cards
« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2017, 12:13:17 pm »
+2

I did explicitly say "for deck drawing purposes" when talking about the pitfall of Bandit Camp. I'm not sure I would call it a mistake to strongly emphasize the importance of deck-drawing engines. They aren't just a little bit better than engines that only draw some of your deck. They're exponentially better. In fact, some players would say that if you're playing a bunch of actions but not drawing deck, it's not really an engine.
Not sure I'd go with exponentially. Quadratically, possibly.
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Polk5440

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Re: Comparing power cards
« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2017, 01:15:29 pm »
+1

This is one of the best discussion threads in a long time! Thanks for posting.

I also agree Chapel-Remake can really be great. In the example kingdom posted in the OP, my Chapel would probably become Steward or Silver depending on when they collide, but Steward here is for draw, not trashing. I would definitely ignore Amb. Remake is killer. I would use it as the payload as there is a chain all the way $2-$8 giving a straightforward set up for a final triple Province turn.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2017, 01:17:09 pm by Polk5440 »
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Omastar68

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Re: Comparing power cards
« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2017, 01:32:07 pm »
0

Playing a kingdom with a lot of cards that compete for a buy since they can do similar things might be interesting. If anyone wants to do that, please let me know. Hopefully I can start connecting to the server.
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O

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Re: Comparing power cards
« Reply #30 on: June 08, 2017, 07:23:15 pm »
+2



I don't think I would use "+1 coin" as a description for someone giving you a Copper, no matter what the circumstance. Would you say that Mountebank gives you a coin?


We are directly comparing sending over a copper versus sending over an estate. When the relevant card you send over is reached by the opponent running Jack it is quite literally +1 coin for their hand, which is what I was describing. It seems disingenuous for you to remove the copper from that context to argue that "copper isn't really +1 coin". How is that situation remotely comparable to Mountebank?

Deck drawing engines are certainly better than not deck drawing engines in that that if you can easily draw your deck, it's generally better to go for that strategy. But by no means do deck-drawing engines default beat one's that don't if the trashing isn't strong. Whether or not you need to draw your deck to call it an engine seems like not-very-relevant pedantics about terminology.

You didn't really respond to my criticism of the Bandit Camp analogy, in my opinion. You argue that deck drawing decks are the standard by which we should evaluate. I disagree, but even if go along with the argument I had two other points: Deck Drawing engines do not begin as such and Bandit Camp places spoils into Discard and a card into hand, so your % chance at drawing your deck is still higher (nontrivially so) than with necropolis + 3.

I'm sorry my words of "mistake" "silly" and "obtuse" offended you. But perhaps my tone was harsh because I personally was confused and unhappy with how you ignored the theme of my post: comparing the options to Jack (and somewhat Amulet) within a BM environment, mostly, to make the point about engines. If you're enjoying discussing the subtleties of dominion, surely you should be striving to do more than a "gotcha" style post by removing the context with which I posted my comment? Because it didn't really feel like a fluidly linear discussion where your post was actually responding to my post.



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O

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Re: Comparing power cards
« Reply #31 on: June 08, 2017, 07:27:12 pm »
+1

Also jack/donate tends to be lot of times best strategy as it piles provinces. Its better than bonfire-jack.

If you don't mind can you describe the play orders on Jack/Donate in your opinion?

1. 4/3 Presumably directly jack -> donate. Do you keep any coppers?

2. 3/4 Presumably you go Silver->Jack-> Donate? Do you keep any coppers?

Genuinely curious
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Titandrake

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Re: Comparing power cards
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2017, 01:02:36 am »
0

I've never played Jack/Donate, but my instinct is that you want to keep just enough Copper to pay off the debt and no more.

So on 4/3, you keep 3 Copper. Your deck is Jack + 3 Copper, so playing Jack draws the Silver you gain and lets you pay off the final 5 debt.
And on 3/4, well it depends on how much money you drew on turn 3, but I imagine you can usually trash 5 Coppers to leave yourself with a Jack + Silver + 2 Copper deck. Maybe you only trash 4 Copper instead of 5 if you drew poorly turn 3.
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markus

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Re: Comparing power cards
« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2017, 05:35:00 am »
0

So on 4/3, you keep 3 Copper. Your deck is Jack + 3 Copper, so playing Jack draws the Silver you gain and lets you pay off the final 5 debt.
You probably want to keep at most 2 Coppers. In that case you would have 1 debt after turn 3, and 5 coins to spend after turn 4.

If you keep 3 Coppers, you get to 7 on turn 4, but you have to carry around the additional copper - unless you donate again with the intention of not buying any other kingdom cards. But if that was the plan, you might as well trash all coppers on turn 2 and not even have debt after turn 4. My hunch is that this what you want to do, if you play Jack-BM: get a Gold turn 6 and Province/Gold from turn 7.
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Omastar68

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Re: Comparing power cards
« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2017, 07:41:45 pm »
0

Another comparison of two cards that would be helpful is Governor and Minion. Certainly these are both very good cards that you want in bulk if possible, but what if they're both there? Only had 1 game w/ both a while ago, went Gov and that seemed to be fine. But since Minion is also amazing I got 1 or 2 of those as well. Should I have just bought Governors? Don't remember the board at all, but generally speaking does anyone have an opinion on which is better? Gov speaks to me, gain Golds and then Remodel them for Provinces. Ofc gonna be weaker on boards with Colonies, but I still don't think it's weak there. The option for a non-terminal Council Room that's just 3 cards w/ no buy is really helpful too, tho i use that the least.

Minion is really good though. I'd be skeptical of anyone saying Minion>Gov most of the time, but certainly I'd buy it if someone said a mix is better than just one.
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McGarnacle

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Re: Comparing power cards
« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2017, 08:46:56 pm »
+1

Another comparison of two cards that would be helpful is Governor and Minion. Certainly these are both very good cards that you want in bulk if possible, but what if they're both there? Only had 1 game w/ both a while ago, went Gov and that seemed to be fine. But since Minion is also amazing I got 1 or 2 of those as well. Should I have just bought Governors? Don't remember the board at all, but generally speaking does anyone have an opinion on which is better? Gov speaks to me, gain Golds and then Remodel them for Provinces. Ofc gonna be weaker on boards with Colonies, but I still don't think it's weak there. The option for a non-terminal Council Room that's just 3 cards w/ no buy is really helpful too, tho i use that the least.

Minion is really good though. I'd be skeptical of anyone saying Minion>Gov most of the time, but certainly I'd buy it if someone said a mix is better than just one.

I haven't used Minion much, but Governor is amazing. Basically a one-card engine, you don't need anything else, and especially in kingdoms with no +Buy, it is often a good plan to just go Governors and then VP.
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gloures

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Re: Comparing power cards
« Reply #36 on: June 19, 2017, 01:01:27 am »
+1

Another comparison of two cards that would be helpful is Governor and Minion. Certainly these are both very good cards that you want in bulk if possible, but what if they're both there? Only had 1 game w/ both a while ago, went Gov and that seemed to be fine. But since Minion is also amazing I got 1 or 2 of those as well. Should I have just bought Governors? Don't remember the board at all, but generally speaking does anyone have an opinion on which is better? Gov speaks to me, gain Golds and then Remodel them for Provinces. Ofc gonna be weaker on boards with Colonies, but I still don't think it's weak there. The option for a non-terminal Council Room that's just 3 cards w/ no buy is really helpful too, tho i use that the least.

Minion is really good though. I'd be skeptical of anyone saying Minion>Gov most of the time, but certainly I'd buy it if someone said a mix is better than just one.

There´s a very good chance you´ll want them both since Minion will allow you to use Governor draw with almost impunity, ideally you will also want lots of desappering money (like more Minions for example), but at the very least it will make it a lot easier to connect your other Governors with Gold... Do keep in mind that you should be very careful with shuffleing on these kind of decks, it´s very easy to set up one or more dud turns by triggering a stupid shuffle here...
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Omastar68

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Re: Comparing power cards
« Reply #37 on: June 19, 2017, 10:18:57 am »
0

I remember a sad game where I lost to Baker-BM. Gov was on there, I remember Chariot Race, Dungeon, and Knights, I got Dame Natalie and also trashed some Bakers.

It felt kinda bad to lose cuz isn't spamming Baker a noob move? Like always opening w/ it, and even paying 2 tokens fer it over Silver? But I somehow still lost, doing all that fancy stuff:( mayb shooda put ot in Game Reports, I'm not a huge fan of Baker. You can't have too many of them and the earlier the better, but idk comparing it to other 5s, at least some of them. Pretty sure Cursers are gonna be a priority over it most of the time. I'm sure Cultist too, but mayb not Gov? What about Minion or Knights if they already are piledriving the Bakers?
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faust

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Re: Comparing power cards
« Reply #38 on: June 19, 2017, 10:39:23 am »
+3

I remember a sad game where I lost to Baker-BM. Gov was on there
I don't know what you did, but Governor-BM should beat Baker-BM handily.
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Omastar68

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Re: Comparing power cards
« Reply #39 on: June 19, 2017, 12:23:31 pm »
0

I remember a sad game where I lost to Baker-BM. Gov was on there
I don't know what you did, but Governor-BM should beat Baker-BM handily.

Certainly that's what I'd expect too. I think I got careless thinking that this was just another Baker addict. Generally would it be best to buy no Bakers at all on a Gov board if there're Govs left and Bakers aren't the Obelisk or something?
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faust

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Re: Comparing power cards
« Reply #40 on: June 19, 2017, 12:50:48 pm »
0

I remember a sad game where I lost to Baker-BM. Gov was on there
I don't know what you did, but Governor-BM should beat Baker-BM handily.

Certainly that's what I'd expect too. I think I got careless thinking that this was just another Baker addict. Generally would it be best to buy no Bakers at all on a Gov board if there're Govs left and Bakers aren't the Obelisk or something?
Yes.
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DG

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Re: Comparing power cards
« Reply #41 on: June 19, 2017, 12:56:18 pm »
+1

I remember a sad game where I lost to Baker-BM. Gov was on there, I remember Chariot Race, Dungeon, and Knights, I got Dame Natalie and also trashed some Bakers.

It felt kinda bad to lose cuz isn't spamming Baker a noob move? Like always opening w/ it, and even paying 2 tokens fer it over Silver? But I somehow still lost, doing all that fancy stuff:( mayb shooda put ot in Game Reports, I'm not a huge fan of Baker.

This seems understandable. Knights are poor against money decks (compare Natalie to a bandit) and just how are you using your governors here? If there are better cards at cost 3 than cost 4, trashing with the governor might be bad. If you are giving the opponent extra cards then their bakers and dungeons get better. Giving out gold and silver isn't a great advantage unless that gold can be reliably harnessed for better things. Neither chariots nor governors are reliable in decks full of copper.

It feels to me as if there might be a way to bring everything together if we knew all thre kingdom cards.
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DG

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Re: Comparing power cards
« Reply #42 on: June 19, 2017, 01:05:54 pm »
+1

Ok, I know people say Mine isn't that great and I can kinda see that. Mainly I was wondering this because Mine helps more the more shuffles you have left, so the earlier the better. I'd actually expect sifting to help, though the rest makes sense. But sifting would help you see your Mine faster. idk. I've heard Mine-BM is bad and that makes sense, and an engine would rather buy a Gold and hopefully draw it, or get more engine pieces. So Mine doesn't really have much use in the majority of kingdoms it's in, yes?

There are two main uses for mine (1) getting special treasures (2) getting better treasures into your deck without buying them. The latter seems obvious but it actually cuts out a lot of decks where you either don't want treasures or are willing to just buy the better treasures. Once you have a better perspective of why you need the mine you'll also know when you need the mine.
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Omastar68

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Re: Comparing power cards
« Reply #43 on: June 19, 2017, 07:34:36 pm »
0

I remember a sad game where I lost to Baker-BM. Gov was on there, I remember Chariot Race, Dungeon, and Knights, I got Dame Natalie and also trashed some Bakers.

It felt kinda bad to lose cuz isn't spamming Baker a noob move? Like always opening w/ it, and even paying 2 tokens fer it over Silver? But I somehow still lost, doing all that fancy stuff:( mayb shooda put ot in Game Reports, I'm not a huge fan of Baker.

This seems understandable. Knights are poor against money decks (compare Natalie to a bandit) and just how are you using your governors here? If there are better cards at cost 3 than cost 4, trashing with the governor might be bad. If you are giving the opponent extra cards then their bakers and dungeons get better. Giving out gold and silver isn't a great advantage unless that gold can be reliably harnessed for better things. Neither chariots nor governors are reliable in decks full of copper.

It feels to me as if there might be a way to bring everything together if we knew all thre kingdom cards.

Oh, I just often have trouble w/ Baker. I don't remember any specifics, just that I felt scandalized losing to almost pure Baker. Don't think he even bought a Dungeon. Lucky, certainly.
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