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[Omastar68]

A lot of the times it's obvious you want to open something like Chapel, Ambassador, or Remake, but what about when several cards like those are present? Remake/Chapel seems like a bad opening, and idk if you should then forget about Chapel. And with no obvious anti-synergies like Hermit, cards like Apothecary that like Copper, or Watchtower, is Ambassador a good buy even over cards that can trash more or for a benefit?

I guess it always depends on the board, so what about this:

Raze
Chapel
Ambassador
Steward
Remake
Remodel
Salvager
Lost City
Altar
Expand

Maybe a silly example since Shuffle IT is never gonna give you so much trashing(I think.) But certainly you'll see more than one strong trasher often, and besides wondering which ones of the big guns like Chapel, Remake, Steward and Ambassador to get on boards like these, I'm really curious to hear what someone much more experienced thinks about more middling trashers like Remodel and Expand. Would they have no place on this board for instance?

I think trashing is so vital that I mostly care about what people think for that, but I'm also a bit unsure on other similar cards that have an effect you generally want. Like I know Mountebank>Soothsayer and Cultist greater>Witch, among others, but what about Cultist or Torturer? And if there's no village, Cultist-BM or Torturer-BM? With no buy I feel like Torturer, but not at all sure. Again assume there's nothing else stronger or other factors that make a big difference, i.e. Vineyards, Scrying Pool, Quest(maybe,) Wolf Den, etc.

Any other alike cards are up for discussion as well. Really anything about Dominion, I love this game and spend a ton of time playing. Key points would be when to get Baker, if you use the token for it, that kind of thing. Also if there's plentiful +action but not much draw(say Moat is the biggest,) is getting Mine asap important? Assume that there's nothing like Highway, Rebuild, or Mountebank that'd likely make it no, and there's also no particular synergy for it, like Plats, good alt-treasure, throne room and variants, etc. This imaginary game doesn't have tons of junking so that it might turn into a slog, and neither is it gonna be over really fast.

[JThorne]

You might want to check out the Qvist rankings. I'm not sure the 2016 rankings are complete, but the 2015 rankings are here:

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14011.0

Since they're grouped by cost, that makes it a little more difficult, but at least you can get a feel for how the community rates the cards. For example, you'll see Cultist above Torturer on the $5s. It's non-terminal for other cultists, doesn't give the junk to hand where it can be paired with a trasher, and doesn't have an escape clause. No contest. Even though Torturer is a draw-3, if there's a village on the board, you're sometimes better off playing village/cultist-chain/village/cultist-chain. Think of each chain as though it was a single terminal draw "package."

It's harder to compare $2 and $4 cards like Chapel and Remake directly, but I'm pretty sure that everyone would agree that Chapel is by far the more powerful card. If you see them together, you skip Remake the majority of the time. I know what you're thinking. Estates become Silvers. Eww. Forget that. Take the Chapel chainsaw to your deck and lose the starters.

Remodel is emphatically NOT a trasher. Expand is not a trasher. These aren't even considered middling trashers.

The purpose of a trasher is to thin your deck, and upgraders do neither. Any card that upgrades "up to" an amount more requires you to gain a card, meaning your deck will never get thin. Some upgraders that say "exactly" an amount more, however, can be extremely useful. Upgrade itself can get rid of all of your coppers if there is no Poor House in the kingdom and will thin your deck nicely.

The title of your thread is "comparing power cards" but then you list a kingdom with several decidedly non-power cards on it. Warehouse, Remodel, Salvager, Lost City, Altar and Expand are definitely not power cards. They're all good sometimes and they all have their place, but they're not cards that make alarm bells go off when you see them.

So definitely do some reading.

As far as comparing power trashers goes, I'd rate the trashers in this order:

Donate
Chapel
Steward
Remake

It gets a little muddled after that.

Temple?
Plan?
Bonfire?
Junk Dealer?
Count?
Trading Post?
Forge?

I'll give Mercenary props, but you can't just buy one, so it's a whole different thing. Ambassador is also one of the most powerful cards in the game, but it's hard to get thin with it because you can pretty much guarantee that your opponent is handing you junk as fast as you're handing it back.

The key is the ability to trash multiple cards with each use, ideally gaining nothing. You can get thin with trash-ones like Trade Route and Salvager, but you usually have to buy two; if you're doing trash one/buy one each shuffle, it's hard to get thin.

[Omastar68]

It's harder to compare $2 and $4 cards like Chapel and Remake directly, but I'm pretty sure that everyone would agree that Chapel is by far the more powerful card. If you see them together, you skip Remake the majority of the time. I know what you're thinking. Estates become Silvers. Eww. Forget that. Take the Chapel chainsaw to your deck and lose the starters.

Remodel is emphatically NOT a trasher. Expand is not a trasher. These aren't even considered middling trashers.[/quote[

No, that makes sense Chapel is pretty great. And with upgrading cards my thinking was you're you'd be getting something that's better than nothing, so not actually reducing the size of your deck wouldn't really be an issue(edge cases like Wall ofc.) But that's not always the case, and trasher is the wrong word anyways.

The title of your thread is "comparing power cards" but then you list a kingdom with several decidedly non-power cards on it. Warehouse, Remodel, Salvager, Lost City, Altar and Expand are definitely not power cards. They're all good sometimes and they all have their place, but they're not cards that make alarm bells go off when you see them.

So definitely do some reading.

As far as comparing power trashers goes, I'd rate the trashers in this order:

Donate
Chapel
Steward
Remake

Yes, that's misleading. The title was really just about the main ones like Chapel, for the kingdom I threw in some other cards that I wonder about. Warehouse doesn't fit the trashing theme at all so I'll change that. Thanks for your opinion of the trashers, the top two are certainly what I'd expect. Not sure about Steward vs. Remake, but I doubt it'll usually hurt very much to open one over the other anyways.

[drsteelhammer]

Ambassador gets you thin. usually only one of the players, though. (who will win)

remake is also super powerful, maybe even better than Chapel if there is a strong, spammable $3.

Also, thin= amount of stopcards, not amount of cards. so remodel can thin your deck, it's just awful at doing it.

[faust]

Remake's power is definitely the most situational of the strong trashers. It's really good when you can turn Estates into something better than Silver (i.e. engine components). On the other hand, it's really awful with Poor House.

[Accatitippi]

I'm pretty positive that Cultist-BM trounces Torturer-BM, regardless of availability of +buy. Torturer is pretty mediocre if you can't play several in a row.

In the board you propose, I think you cannot ignore Ambassador. Warehouse is nifty. Other than that, uh, I'm not sure. A Lost City/remodel-shenaningans Engine could be the way to go.
I think it depends on how you come out of the Amb war: if you're ahead you may have the leeway to build a solid deck with Lost Cities, money, and Remodel for milling. Don't trash your Ambassador, you need it to play Copper table tennis.
If you're behind you might still stand a better chance at winning than in the average ambassador game, but honestly I don't know what I'd do in the situation.

[faust]

Any other alike cards are up for discussion as well. Really anything about Dominion, I love this game and spend a ton of time playing. Key points would be when to get Baker, if you use the token for it, that kind of thing.

Generally, you get Baker when you hit $5 and there's no card that is more important. You don't usually want to open with it, especially not on a 3/4 split.

Also if there's plentiful +action but not much draw(say Moat is the biggest,) is getting Mine asap important? Assume that there's nothing like Highway, Rebuild, or Mountebank that'd likely make it no, and there's also no particular synergy for it, like Plats, good alt-treasure, throne room and variants, etc. This imaginary game doesn't have tons of junking so that it might turn into a slog, and neither is it gonna be over really fast.

It is pretty much never important to get Mine asap. The only board where Mine might be a key card is if there's no other Copper trashing, engine potential, limited sifting and Gold is the best payload.

[Omastar68]

Also if there's plentiful +action but not much draw(say Moat is the biggest,) is getting Mine asap important? Assume that there's nothing like Highway, Rebuild, or Mountebank that'd likely make it no, and there's also no particular synergy for it, like Plats, good alt-treasure, throne room and variants, etc. This imaginary game doesn't have tons of junking so that it might turn into a slog, and neither is it gonna be over really fast.

It is pretty much never important to get Mine asap. The only board where Mine might be a key card is if there's no other Copper trashing, engine potential, limited sifting and Gold is the best payload.
[/quote]

Ok, I know people say Mine isn't that great and I can kinda see that. Mainly I was wondering this because Mine helps more the more shuffles you have left, so the earlier the better. I'd actually expect sifting to help, though the rest makes sense. But sifting would help you see your Mine faster. idk. I've heard Mine-BM is bad and that makes sense, and an engine would rather buy a Gold and hopefully draw it, or get more engine pieces. So Mine doesn't really have much use in the majority of kingdoms it's in, yes?

[Chris is me]

If you want Mine, you do generally want it sooner rather than later, just because of how slow it is. It's just really rare that you both really want Mine and you don't have a more urgent priority at $5.

I'll post my thoughts on the board later, but I think you open Stewart / Amb and you play a sort of junk + money thing, since you don't really have extra Buys. Stewart is the best tool for that job. Getting thinner faster with Chapel doesn't really help.

[trivialknot]

I'll post my thoughts on the board later, but I think you open Stewart / Amb and you play a sort of junk + money thing, since you don't really have extra Buys. Stewart is the best tool for that job. Getting thinner faster with Chapel doesn't really help.

You do have extra gains, with the help of your opponent's Ambassador.

[JThorne]

play a sort of junk + money thing, since you don't really have extra Buys.

Well, there's Salvager. If I got thin enough quick enough, had Lost Cities and control, I'd be tempted to buy a curse with the +Buy from Salvager if I could play Ambassador-Curse every turn, returning zero, and if I was using any Gold for economy, I might sneak in Salvaging a Gold for a bigger points buy late (or Salvaging the Ambassador; same profit.) Salvaging Provinces also mills just as well as Remodel.

Then again, that may take too long to set up, and it's tough to draw deck with Lost Cities unless you're REALLY thin. I do find myself going for a deck like that sometimes when I have a lead on a less experienced opponent and thinking I probably wouldn't get away with it against a better player.

[aku_chi]

I would be tempted to play with Altar + Expand for payload.  I'd probably try to have Altar x2 and one Expand, to get up to 12 VP on the last turn.  With this approach, I would ignore Ambassador.  If the opponent opens with an Ambassador or two, I would want to open Chapel + Remake (Remaking the Chapel after one or two plays).  Otherwise, I would open Remake + Warehouse.  Remakes and early buys should provide 2-3 Silvers and 1-2 Warehouses.  Then, you spike Altar and start turning Coppers (and Remake) into Lost Cities.  Buy another Altar and Expand, and then you can trash your Silvers, too.  Expand Lost Cities into Provinces.  Eventually, gain Duchies with Altars.

It's not obvious this is the dominant strategy; I'd want to play it out.

The takeaway is that there is no clear answer to which power trasher is best.  It's best to consider your payload first: what do you want your deck to do in the mid and late game?  How will you win the game?  Then, figure out the fastest way to build to that payload.  This is something that you'll get a better feel for with experience.

Remodel, Altar, and Expand are primarily payload cards.  They help you gain engine components, and VP cards later.  They can also help get rid of your starting cards, but that isn't their usual primary function.  Ambassador is good at thinning, but is super strong because it junks at the same time.  Steward is slower than Chapel, but it is useful after trashing, and could be better than Chapel if there are villages and good $2 cards to pick up on Steward trashes.  Remake is slower than Steward, but it can gain economy or engine pieces while trashing, which is a powerful tempo advantage.  Chapel is the straight-up fastest trasher (other than Donate), and is going to be best if there is payload that can grow explosively from a 4-5 card hand.

[Burning Skull]

It is a pity Masquerade was removed from the game in the second edition. Was such a good trasher!

[LastFootnote]

Ok, I know people say Mine isn't that great and I can kinda see that. Mainly I was wondering this because Mine helps more the more shuffles you have left, so the earlier the better. I'd actually expect sifting to help, though the rest makes sense. But sifting would help you see your Mine faster. idk. I've heard Mine-BM is bad and that makes sense, and an engine would rather buy a Gold and hopefully draw it, or get more engine pieces. So Mine doesn't really have much use in the majority of kingdoms it's in, yes?

Yeah, I guess that's accurate. Mine is also nice when you can gain Silver easily; it can turn them into Golds. You use your buys on engine components and let the Silver-gainer and Mine take care of your economy. If you have some sort of remodel or TfB to use on excess Golds, so much the better.

[werothegreat]

Ok, I know people say Mine isn't that great and I can kinda see that. Mainly I was wondering this because Mine helps more the more shuffles you have left, so the earlier the better. I'd actually expect sifting to help, though the rest makes sense. But sifting would help you see your Mine faster. idk. I've heard Mine-BM is bad and that makes sense, and an engine would rather buy a Gold and hopefully draw it, or get more engine pieces. So Mine doesn't really have much use in the majority of kingdoms it's in, yes?

Yeah, I guess that's accurate. Mine is also nice when you can gain Silver easily; it can turn them into Golds. You use your buys on engine components and let the Silver-gainer and Mine take care of your economy. If you have some sort of remodel or TfB to use on excess Golds, so much the better.

Mine is usually worth picking up if there aren't any other terminal s, such as the First Game setup.

[Burning Skull]

I've picked up a Mine a couple of times recently on two similar boards to trash coppers into CoTRs, which in both cases was the only way to thin. Felt good!

[Omastar68]

I've picked up a Mine a couple of times recently on two similar boards to trash coppers into CoTRs, which in both cases was the only way to thin. Felt good!

Mine can be really good w/ alt-treasure for sure. Fool's Gold is a big one, and I think of Crown and Charm. Treasures that make themselves obsolete or just worse than Gold at some point, like Potion and Quarry sometimes. Really any alt-treasure helps for more options. It'd be interesting to see a board w/ 2+ good treasures where you actually shouldn't buy a Mine.

[drsteelhammer]

Ok, I know people say Mine isn't that great and I can kinda see that. Mainly I was wondering this because Mine helps more the more shuffles you have left, so the earlier the better. I'd actually expect sifting to help, though the rest makes sense. But sifting would help you see your Mine faster. idk. I've heard Mine-BM is bad and that makes sense, and an engine would rather buy a Gold and hopefully draw it, or get more engine pieces. So Mine doesn't really have much use in the majority of kingdoms it's in, yes?

Yeah, I guess that's accurate. Mine is also nice when you can gain Silver easily; it can turn them into Golds. You use your buys on engine components and let the Silver-gainer and Mine take care of your economy. If you have some sort of remodel or TfB to use on excess Golds, so much the better.

Mine is usually worth picking up if there aren't any other terminal s, such as the First Game setup.

"usually" is definitely the wrong word, most terminals that don't cost 5 beat Mine most of the time. If there is trashing, sometimes even no Terminal beats Mine.

I've picked up a Mine a couple of times recently on two similar boards to trash coppers into CoTRs, which in both cases was the only way to thin. Felt good!

Mine can be really good w/ alt-treasure for sure. Fool's Gold is a big one, and I think of Crown and Charm. Treasures that make themselves obsolete or just worse than Gold at some point, like Potion and Quarry sometimes. Really any alt-treasure helps for more options. It'd be interesting to see a board w/ 2+ good treasures where you actually shouldn't buy a Mine.

Atleast in 90% of those boards you should nt buy Mine.

[O]

The problem with rating trashers is simply that even disregarding super game-specific differences, they all vary widely in strength depending on whether its functionally a BM game or functionally an engine game. Perhaps it's well known but i guess it's worth pointing out that in the absence of engines, Jack is going to beat most of these options straight up.

Feel free to correct me on this but:

Jack Silver > Jack Chapel > Chapel ? (Jack silver and Jack Chapel kinda close)
Jack Silver > Jack Amb (I usually double up on Jack vs ambassador)
Jack Silver > Remake Silver
Jack Silver > Steward Silver/Jack

Jack donate > Donate? (not sure but I imagine this to be the case. Never had Jack + Donate in a BM donate game. if you open 3-4 and not 4-3 I also am far less sure).

Amulet behaves similarly to Jack but I don't have enough experience with it to know how powerful amulet BM is vs the others. I'd imagine still stronger.
Hermit is probably slightly weaker than amulet.


Also, mine is terrible. Really really terrible. It might be the second worst card still in the game, after transmute.

[ConMan]

It is a pity Masquerade was removed from the game in the second edition. Was such a good trasher!

Uh ... It ... wasn't? It was just reworded to avoid pins?

[JThorne]

Jack is going to beat most of these options straight up.

I'm skeptical. Jack BM works only by virtue of the silver flood and making you immune to most junking and handsize attacks. The problem is he can't trash copper, and in an Ambassador game, if your opponent sees you playing Jack BM, shouldn't he prioritize giving you Copper, even when he has an Estate in hand? You have to draw hands of SSSCC to buy Provinces, which is going to be a lot harder with 14 Coppers than with 7.

If I was going to start comparing Jack to anything, it would to compare it to other BM-enablers, which is a whole different discussion. It is definitely noteworthy that Chapel-BM isn't a thing, but that Chapel can make even mediocre engines good because it's so fast.

This thread started by comparing trashers, and Jack isn't a trasher. Ok, perhaps I'm being a purist; I only count something as a "trasher" if it thins your deck, which Jack doesn't do. Best case, he upgrades a junk card to a Silver. Hermit, likewise, not a trasher; the card gain isn't optional, so your deck never gets thinner.

This can be a surprisingly big deal. Most newer players can be taught to look for trashers, but they immediately see "trash a card" and think "trasher" and that can be a big mistake.

it's a little like treating Bandit Camp like a Village when for deck-drawing purposes, it behaves a lot more like a Necropolis with +$3 attached. But I digress...

[LastFootnote]

It is a pity Masquerade was removed from the game in the second edition. Was such a good trasher!

Uh ... It ... wasn't? It was just reworded to avoid pins?

I thought maybe it was a joke about how nobody had mentioned Masquerade in this thread up to that point.

[O]

Jack is going to beat most of these options straight up.

I'm skeptical. Jack BM works only by virtue of the silver flood and making you immune to most junking and handsize attacks. The problem is he can't trash copper, and in an Ambassador game, if your opponent sees you playing Jack BM, shouldn't he prioritize giving you Copper, even when he has an Estate in hand? You have to draw hands of SSSCC to buy Provinces, which is going to be a lot harder with 14 Coppers than with 7.

If I was going to start comparing Jack to anything, it would to compare it to other BM-enablers, which is a whole different discussion. It is definitely noteworthy that Chapel-BM isn't a thing, but that Chapel can make even mediocre engines good because it's so fast.

This thread started by comparing trashers, and Jack isn't a trasher. Ok, perhaps I'm being a purist; I only count something as a "trasher" if it thins your deck, which Jack doesn't do. Best case, he upgrades a junk card to a Silver. Hermit, likewise, not a trasher; the card gain isn't optional, so your deck never gets thinner.

This can be a surprisingly big deal. Most newer players can be taught to look for trashers, but they immediately see "trash a card" and think "trasher" and that can be a big mistake.

it's a little like treating Bandit Camp like a Village when for deck-drawing purposes, it behaves a lot more like a Necropolis with +$3 attached. But I digress...

this is a bit weird when my primary point was that the evaluation of trashers changes depending on whether its a BM game or not.

Amb vs Jack he should "prioritize" giving you the most cards for ambassador, which is how ambassador generally runs anyways. Giving them one copper over one estate seems extremely silly: you're -1 coin, he's +1 coin after that if that copper hits a jack and how many shuffles is he really going to have to deal with that copper?  And the estate is far better to pass over if that card misses the Jack anyways..

That being said I'm happy to run doubleJack against your amb as many times as you want, your SSS-CC isn't quite relevant when Jack can buy golds so quickly..

And treating bandit camp as a necropolis with +3 attached falls into the classic F.DS mistake I see all the time: a large portion of the time your engine is not drawing your whole deck. Even if it is, it likely wasn't originally.  Even if you were originally, the Spoils is put into your discard and the card you're drawing is still at the same proportions to be an engine card.  So these obtuse analogies don't end up being that useful in practice.

Jack is a trasher. In some games, Jack is meh because you don't want the secondary benefit from Jack as silver. But that doesn't change the fact that Jack removes unwanted cards from your card via trashing. They are separate points and combining them only serves to confuse, not illuminate.

[Cave-o-sapien]

Does the presence of Platinum make Mine more or less attractive? I feel like I had a game recently where Gold was gained cheaply (Soothsayer? Courtier? I don't recall) and Mine was a nice, in-place method to turn those into Platina. There were actions and buys aplenty, and this was probably a "win more" case, but it still felt like a worthwhile use of $5 at the time.

[werothegreat]

Does the presence of Platinum make Mine more or less attractive? I feel like I had a game recently where Gold was gained cheaply (Soothsayer? Courtier? I don't recall) and Mine was a nice, in-place method to turn those into Platina. There were actions and buys aplenty, and this was probably a "win more" case, but it still felt like a worthwhile use of $5 at the time.

I would say yes.  + is certainly better than +.

[luser]

First remake-chapel is one of best openings here. It gives early economy, best trashing if they don't collide and you could turn chapel into silver after trashing most of deck.

Ambassador sucks when there is better trashing like in this game, It gives bad economy and any junk will be trashed next turn.  Here I would get remodel/stewards/lost cities mid game and with milling provinces game will be quickly over.

Cultist-bm is usually best thing on board with cultist. Unopposed with average luck it delivers all ruins by turn 10. Dealing with that gives so much time to get 5-6 provinces with cultist bm. Torturer isn't even close unless you could get lost arts/cotr.

Also jack/donate tends to be lot of times best strategy as it piles provinces. Its better than bonfire-jack. 

[JThorne]

Giving them one copper over one estate seems extremely silly: you're -1 coin, he's +1 coin after that if that copper hits a jack

Jack is a trasher. In some games, Jack is meh because you don't want the secondary benefit from Jack as silver. But that doesn't change the fact that Jack removes unwanted cards from your card via trashing. They are separate points and combining them only serves to confuse, not illuminate.

treating bandit camp as a necropolis with +3 attached falls into the classic F.DS mistake I see all the time: a large portion of the time your engine is not drawing your whole deck. Even if it is, it likely wasn't originally.  Even if you were originally, the Spoils is put into your discard and the card you're drawing is still at the same proportions to be an engine card.  So these obtuse analogies don't end up being that useful in practice.

I've been mulling over this response for a bit. I'd like to start by saying that I enjoy discussing all of the subtleties of Dominion and the many approaches to optimizing play, even where there is disagreement. And because there are many players with many levels of experience and ability, I almost always state my ideas and observations in the form of a question, explicitly asking others to weigh in.

In this case, my thoughts have been met with "silly," "confusing," "mistake" and "obtuse." It's hard not to be taken aback. I was simply trying to offer some other ways of thinking about cards.

When a relatively inexperienced user starts a thread with a question like this, I think it's important to try to help them expand their thinking. Most beginning users can play simple strategies, particularly BM. Learning all of the complex engine variations takes a lot more exploration and more patience and discipline, and learning to successfully evaluate a kingdom and decide on the appropriate path is incredibly difficult and subtle; too much emphasis placed on individual cards can create tunnel vision in less experienced players.

So, in the interest of clarity, I would like to revisit some of the points above in as non-confrontational a manner as I can muster.

I don't think I would use "+1 coin" as a description for someone giving you a Copper, no matter what the circumstance. Would you say that Mountebank gives you a coin?

You seemed to state that Jack is a trasher with Silver-gain as a secondary benefit? Jack only trashes some of the time and always gains a Silver. He seems more like a Silver gainer with occasional trashing/sifting as a secondary benefit. The trashing and Silver gain are not "separate points" because Jack isn't a thinner. His trashing/gaining has a very particular singular effect: To increase your average money density.

I did explicitly say "for deck drawing purposes" when talking about the pitfall of Bandit Camp. I'm not sure I would call it a mistake to strongly emphasize the importance of deck-drawing engines. They aren't just a little bit better than engines that only draw some of your deck. They're exponentially better. In fact, some players would say that if you're playing a bunch of actions but not drawing deck, it's not really an engine.

Again, that's something newer players have a hard time learning. Being patient and not just buying Provinces as soon as you start hitting $8 takes discipline. Seeing what happens when you can draw your whole deck reliably and plan out exactly what you're going to buy on every turn, not to mention make sure to always, every turn, play that exactly one copy of [insert attack card here] that you have in your deck. It's engines like that that make it so that when you see Ambassador and Jack in a same kingdom, you're almost always going to use the Ambassador if the engine is even remotely viable. Sure, Jack-BM might beat Ambassador-BM, but how often is that really the choice? Was it Stef who said don't play a 1-card kingdom? Or a 9-card kingdom? Or something?

[Jack Rudd]

I did explicitly say "for deck drawing purposes" when talking about the pitfall of Bandit Camp. I'm not sure I would call it a mistake to strongly emphasize the importance of deck-drawing engines. They aren't just a little bit better than engines that only draw some of your deck. They're exponentially better. In fact, some players would say that if you're playing a bunch of actions but not drawing deck, it's not really an engine.

Not sure I'd go with exponentially. Quadratically, possibly.

[Polk5440]

This is one of the best discussion threads in a long time! Thanks for posting.

I also agree Chapel-Remake can really be great. In the example kingdom posted in the OP, my Chapel would probably become Steward or Silver depending on when they collide, but Steward here is for draw, not trashing. I would definitely ignore Amb. Remake is killer. I would use it as the payload as there is a chain all the way $2-$8 giving a straightforward set up for a final triple Province turn.

[Omastar68]

Playing a kingdom with a lot of cards that compete for a buy since they can do similar things might be interesting. If anyone wants to do that, please let me know. Hopefully I can start connecting to the server.

[O]

I don't think I would use "+1 coin" as a description for someone giving you a Copper, no matter what the circumstance. Would you say that Mountebank gives you a coin?

We are directly comparing sending over a copper versus sending over an estate. When the relevant card you send over is reached by the opponent running Jack it is quite literally +1 coin for their hand, which is what I was describing. It seems disingenuous for you to remove the copper from that context to argue that "copper isn't really +1 coin". How is that situation remotely comparable to Mountebank?

Deck drawing engines are certainly better than not deck drawing engines in that that if you can easily draw your deck, it's generally better to go for that strategy. But by no means do deck-drawing engines default beat one's that don't if the trashing isn't strong. Whether or not you need to draw your deck to call it an engine seems like not-very-relevant pedantics about terminology.

You didn't really respond to my criticism of the Bandit Camp analogy, in my opinion. You argue that deck drawing decks are the standard by which we should evaluate. I disagree, but even if go along with the argument I had two other points: Deck Drawing engines do not begin as such and Bandit Camp places spoils into Discard and a card into hand, so your % chance at drawing your deck is still higher (nontrivially so) than with necropolis + 3.

I'm sorry my words of "mistake" "silly" and "obtuse" offended you. But perhaps my tone was harsh because I personally was confused and unhappy with how you ignored the theme of my post: comparing the options to Jack (and somewhat Amulet) within a BM environment, mostly, to make the point about engines. If you're enjoying discussing the subtleties of dominion, surely you should be striving to do more than a "gotcha" style post by removing the context with which I posted my comment? Because it didn't really feel like a fluidly linear discussion where your post was actually responding to my post.

[O]

Also jack/donate tends to be lot of times best strategy as it piles provinces. Its better than bonfire-jack.

If you don't mind can you describe the play orders on Jack/Donate in your opinion?

1. 4/3 Presumably directly jack -> donate. Do you keep any coppers?

2. 3/4 Presumably you go Silver->Jack-> Donate? Do you keep any coppers?

Genuinely curious

[Titandrake]

I've never played Jack/Donate, but my instinct is that you want to keep just enough Copper to pay off the debt and no more.

So on 4/3, you keep 3 Copper. Your deck is Jack + 3 Copper, so playing Jack draws the Silver you gain and lets you pay off the final 5 debt.
And on 3/4, well it depends on how much money you drew on turn 3, but I imagine you can usually trash 5 Coppers to leave yourself with a Jack + Silver + 2 Copper deck. Maybe you only trash 4 Copper instead of 5 if you drew poorly turn 3.

[markus]

So on 4/3, you keep 3 Copper. Your deck is Jack + 3 Copper, so playing Jack draws the Silver you gain and lets you pay off the final 5 debt.

You probably want to keep at most 2 Coppers. In that case you would have 1 debt after turn 3, and 5 coins to spend after turn 4.

If you keep 3 Coppers, you get to 7 on turn 4, but you have to carry around the additional copper - unless you donate again with the intention of not buying any other kingdom cards. But if that was the plan, you might as well trash all coppers on turn 2 and not even have debt after turn 4. My hunch is that this what you want to do, if you play Jack-BM: get a Gold turn 6 and Province/Gold from turn 7.

[Omastar68]

Another comparison of two cards that would be helpful is Governor and Minion. Certainly these are both very good cards that you want in bulk if possible, but what if they're both there? Only had 1 game w/ both a while ago, went Gov and that seemed to be fine. But since Minion is also amazing I got 1 or 2 of those as well. Should I have just bought Governors? Don't remember the board at all, but generally speaking does anyone have an opinion on which is better? Gov speaks to me, gain Golds and then Remodel them for Provinces. Ofc gonna be weaker on boards with Colonies, but I still don't think it's weak there. The option for a non-terminal Council Room that's just 3 cards w/ no buy is really helpful too, tho i use that the least.

Minion is really good though. I'd be skeptical of anyone saying Minion>Gov most of the time, but certainly I'd buy it if someone said a mix is better than just one.

[McGarnacle]

Another comparison of two cards that would be helpful is Governor and Minion. Certainly these are both very good cards that you want in bulk if possible, but what if they're both there? Only had 1 game w/ both a while ago, went Gov and that seemed to be fine. But since Minion is also amazing I got 1 or 2 of those as well. Should I have just bought Governors? Don't remember the board at all, but generally speaking does anyone have an opinion on which is better? Gov speaks to me, gain Golds and then Remodel them for Provinces. Ofc gonna be weaker on boards with Colonies, but I still don't think it's weak there. The option for a non-terminal Council Room that's just 3 cards w/ no buy is really helpful too, tho i use that the least.

Minion is really good though. I'd be skeptical of anyone saying Minion>Gov most of the time, but certainly I'd buy it if someone said a mix is better than just one.

I haven't used Minion much, but Governor is amazing. Basically a one-card engine, you don't need anything else, and especially in kingdoms with no +Buy, it is often a good plan to just go Governors and then VP.

[gloures]

Another comparison of two cards that would be helpful is Governor and Minion. Certainly these are both very good cards that you want in bulk if possible, but what if they're both there? Only had 1 game w/ both a while ago, went Gov and that seemed to be fine. But since Minion is also amazing I got 1 or 2 of those as well. Should I have just bought Governors? Don't remember the board at all, but generally speaking does anyone have an opinion on which is better? Gov speaks to me, gain Golds and then Remodel them for Provinces. Ofc gonna be weaker on boards with Colonies, but I still don't think it's weak there. The option for a non-terminal Council Room that's just 3 cards w/ no buy is really helpful too, tho i use that the least.

Minion is really good though. I'd be skeptical of anyone saying Minion>Gov most of the time, but certainly I'd buy it if someone said a mix is better than just one.

There´s a very good chance you´ll want them both since Minion will allow you to use Governor draw with almost impunity, ideally you will also want lots of desappering money (like more Minions for example), but at the very least it will make it a lot easier to connect your other Governors with Gold... Do keep in mind that you should be very careful with shuffleing on these kind of decks, it´s very easy to set up one or more dud turns by triggering a stupid shuffle here...

[Omastar68]

I remember a sad game where I lost to Baker-BM. Gov was on there, I remember Chariot Race, Dungeon, and Knights, I got Dame Natalie and also trashed some Bakers.

It felt kinda bad to lose cuz isn't spamming Baker a noob move? Like always opening w/ it, and even paying 2 tokens fer it over Silver? But I somehow still lost, doing all that fancy stuff:( mayb shooda put ot in Game Reports, I'm not a huge fan of Baker. You can't have too many of them and the earlier the better, but idk comparing it to other 5s, at least some of them. Pretty sure Cursers are gonna be a priority over it most of the time. I'm sure Cultist too, but mayb not Gov? What about Minion or Knights if they already are piledriving the Bakers?

[faust]

I remember a sad game where I lost to Baker-BM. Gov was on there

I don't know what you did, but Governor-BM should beat Baker-BM handily.

[Omastar68]

I remember a sad game where I lost to Baker-BM. Gov was on there

I don't know what you did, but Governor-BM should beat Baker-BM handily.

Certainly that's what I'd expect too. I think I got careless thinking that this was just another Baker addict. Generally would it be best to buy no Bakers at all on a Gov board if there're Govs left and Bakers aren't the Obelisk or something?

[faust]

I remember a sad game where I lost to Baker-BM. Gov was on there

I don't know what you did, but Governor-BM should beat Baker-BM handily.

Certainly that's what I'd expect too. I think I got careless thinking that this was just another Baker addict. Generally would it be best to buy no Bakers at all on a Gov board if there're Govs left and Bakers aren't the Obelisk or something?

Yes.

[DG]

I remember a sad game where I lost to Baker-BM. Gov was on there, I remember Chariot Race, Dungeon, and Knights, I got Dame Natalie and also trashed some Bakers.

It felt kinda bad to lose cuz isn't spamming Baker a noob move? Like always opening w/ it, and even paying 2 tokens fer it over Silver? But I somehow still lost, doing all that fancy stuff:( mayb shooda put ot in Game Reports, I'm not a huge fan of Baker.

This seems understandable. Knights are poor against money decks (compare Natalie to a bandit) and just how are you using your governors here? If there are better cards at cost 3 than cost 4, trashing with the governor might be bad. If you are giving the opponent extra cards then their bakers and dungeons get better. Giving out gold and silver isn't a great advantage unless that gold can be reliably harnessed for better things. Neither chariots nor governors are reliable in decks full of copper.

It feels to me as if there might be a way to bring everything together if we knew all thre kingdom cards.

[DG]

Ok, I know people say Mine isn't that great and I can kinda see that. Mainly I was wondering this because Mine helps more the more shuffles you have left, so the earlier the better. I'd actually expect sifting to help, though the rest makes sense. But sifting would help you see your Mine faster. idk. I've heard Mine-BM is bad and that makes sense, and an engine would rather buy a Gold and hopefully draw it, or get more engine pieces. So Mine doesn't really have much use in the majority of kingdoms it's in, yes?

There are two main uses for mine (1) getting special treasures (2) getting better treasures into your deck without buying them. The latter seems obvious but it actually cuts out a lot of decks where you either don't want treasures or are willing to just buy the better treasures. Once you have a better perspective of why you need the mine you'll also know when you need the mine.

[Omastar68]

I remember a sad game where I lost to Baker-BM. Gov was on there, I remember Chariot Race, Dungeon, and Knights, I got Dame Natalie and also trashed some Bakers.

It felt kinda bad to lose cuz isn't spamming Baker a noob move? Like always opening w/ it, and even paying 2 tokens fer it over Silver? But I somehow still lost, doing all that fancy stuff:( mayb shooda put ot in Game Reports, I'm not a huge fan of Baker.

This seems understandable. Knights are poor against money decks (compare Natalie to a bandit) and just how are you using your governors here? If there are better cards at cost 3 than cost 4, trashing with the governor might be bad. If you are giving the opponent extra cards then their bakers and dungeons get better. Giving out gold and silver isn't a great advantage unless that gold can be reliably harnessed for better things. Neither chariots nor governors are reliable in decks full of copper.

It feels to me as if there might be a way to bring everything together if we knew all thre kingdom cards.

Oh, I just often have trouble w/ Baker. I don't remember any specifics, just that I felt scandalized losing to almost pure Baker. Don't think he even bought a Dungeon. Lucky, certainly.