Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: Most VP from 1 buy  (Read 922 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

tim17

  • Spy
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 82
  • Respect: +127
    • View Profile
Most VP from 1 buy
« on: May 28, 2017, 10:28:00 pm »
+1

Suppose you buy one card (resolving the buy and any effects triggered by that buy). What is the largest number of VP you can gain from that process? Here are the rules/constraints I'm imposing:

1. (at most) 4 player game following standard set up procedures (at most 2 events/landmarks, etc)
2. You can choose the game state as long as it's legal (i.e. the game hasn't ended before your turn, it's possible to reach that state from a standard start state, etc)
3. On some boards, the number of VP you can gain might be unbounded (e.g. Temple). I want to restrict to setups where this is not the case.

Not sure if I'm forgetting anything, if you think something is amiss, feel free to comment.
Logged

faust

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1614
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +2083
    • View Profile
Re: Most VP from 1 buy
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2017, 03:35:04 am »
0

Do you need to buy a card, or is an Event possible?

(suggestion: do not allow Events; Triumph goes crazy.)
Logged
Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

faust

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1614
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +2083
    • View Profile
Re: Most VP from 1 buy
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2017, 03:37:55 am »
0

Relevant topics:

Here and here.
Logged
Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

faust

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1614
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +2083
    • View Profile
Re: Most VP from 1 buy
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2017, 03:41:57 am »
+2

Doctor + Tomb + Coin tokens sets the lower bar for this as number of cards in the kingdom (- number of piles + 2)
« Last Edit: May 29, 2017, 03:43:50 am by faust »
Logged
Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 9547
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +9309
    • View Profile
Re: Most VP from 1 buy
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2017, 04:19:45 am »
+4

Doctor + Tomb + Coin tokens sets the lower bar for this as number of cards in the kingdom (- number of piles + 2)

With Wall, it's twice as much (-15).

faust

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1614
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +2083
    • View Profile
Re: Most VP from 1 buy
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2017, 04:26:21 am »
+1

Possibly, stuffing all cards in the Black Market deck and profiting from Wolf Den might give better results.

EDIT: Though you need to take care to exclude combos that go unbounded, which will be a pain.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2017, 04:30:01 am by faust »
Logged
Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

faust

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1614
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +2083
    • View Profile
Re: Most VP from 1 buy
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2017, 10:07:34 am »
+2

Preliminaries:

- we can reduce every other player's deck to nothing using Ambassador and then Bishop + Rogue to remove the Ambassador as well.

[Piles: Doctor, Ambassador, Bishop, Rogue, some +action]

- Base cards: 60 Copper, 40 Silver, 30 Gold, 12 Platinum, 16 Potion, 30 Curses, 12+12 Estates, 12 Duchies, 12 Provinces, 12 Colonies = 248 Cards
[Piles: Doctor, Ambassador, Bishop, Rogue, some +action, a Potion-cost]
- 30 Ruinses and 15 Spoils from Marauder gets this to 293 cards.
- Page and Peasant add 20 cards each (in addition to the Kingdom pile), also take care of our need of having +action. = 333 cards.
[Piles: Doctor, Ambassador, Bishop, Rogue, Page, Peasant, Marauder, a Potion-cost]
- add Young Witch with Black Market bane for 10 plus whatever the amount of cards in the Black Market deck that we can legally put in is. = 343 + x cards.
[9 piles]
- we can do Rats for 10 extra cards = 353 + x cards
- now add 10 cards per standard pile = 453 + x cards.
- we have 21 supply piles, so remove 19 = 434 + x cards.

For Wolf Den to yield more points than Wall/Tower, we need 434+x < 3*x => x > 217. That seems doable. Then we probably want to replace some piles with additional uniques (Knights/Castles).
Logged
Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

tim17

  • Spy
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 82
  • Respect: +127
    • View Profile
Re: Most VP from 1 buy
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2017, 10:58:27 pm »
0

Do you need to buy a card, or is an Event possible?

(suggestion: do not allow Events; Triumph goes crazy.)

Events are not allowed (as the thing to buy).
Logged

Aquila

  • Scout
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 41
  • Respect: +19
    • View Profile
Re: Most VP from 1 buy
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2017, 06:04:19 am »
+2

Suppose you buy one card (resolving the buy and any effects triggered by that buy). What is the largest number of VP you can gain from that process?
If we're talking about VP gain, not VP difference, then I guess Wall and Wolf Den will be irrelevant.

Here's a way to 219 I think:
4 player game: Haggler, Castles, Fairgrounds, Vineyard, Silk Road, Death Cart, Rats, Knights, Page, Hunting Grounds. Tower, Museum.
You have all 12 Fairgrounds, all 12 Vineyards, the first 10 Castles, 11 Silk Roads, 9 Hagglers, 19 Rats, and Champion out with 3 HGs to reliably draw and play all the Hagglers. 4 other different cards too, say potion, copper, silver, estate.
You buy the first King's Castle; having all 10 before it means it gives 22 VP +2 for each Humble Castle, for 24. And:
- it's the 20th different card, so the 12 Fairgrounds give 24 VP, and Museum adds another 2
- 11 Silk Roads give 11 VP
You have 9 cards to gain with the Hagglers. These are the 20th Rats, the 10th Haggler, 2 Death Carts to gain 4 different Ruins, and 5 Knights not named Josephine. These give:
- 30 VP from the now empty Haggler and Rats piles with Tower
- 10 more different cards, for 20 Museum VP and 48 more from Fairgrounds
- 13 more Actions to add to the 32 you currently have, for 60 Vineyard points.
And the other 3 players...just buy Gold and Silver?
Logged

tim17

  • Spy
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 82
  • Respect: +127
    • View Profile
Re: Most VP from 1 buy
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2017, 11:11:04 pm »
0

I guess I viewed decreasing negatives from wall/wolf den as VP gain. Regardless, I think this is (roughly) the best I've been able to do:

Number of points: ~1500

Board:

Groundskeeper
Overlord
Haggler
Castles
Hunting Grounds
Market Square
Duplicate
Silk Road
Gardens
Black Market

Tower
Palace


Approach:

4 player game, 24 estates in the supply due to ambassador/moat/lighthouse/champion

Have the following in play:
10 groundskeepers
10 overlords as hagglers (you gained the last haggler mid turn after playing the overlords)
10 hagglers

Have 10 duplicates in reserve, watchtower + 10 market squares in hand, and the first 11 castles in your deck.  Also, you have 59 coppers, 39 silvers, 20 golds, 4 silk roads, most of the black market deck, and all the duchies, provinces, and colonies

Buy king's castle, gaining 20 cards from hagglers
Gain 8 hunting grounds, reveal watchtower to instead gain 24 estates
Discard 10 market squares to gain the last 10 golds
Gain the last copper
Gain the last silver
Gain 10 border villages, which also gain 8 silk roads and 2 gardens
Call 10 duplicates to gain 10 more gardens

Total points gained:
King's Castle is worth 24, and it increases the other King's castle by 2 and the 2 humble castles by 1 each
24 estates are worth 24
10 Groundskeepers gain 450 points in total
Gaining 8 silk roads each worth 24 points: 192 points
Gaining 12 gardens each worth ~50 points: 600 points
Gaining 45 victory cards increases your 4 existing silk roads by 12 points each: 48 points
Gaining the last 10 golds gives you 30 more palace points
Gaining the last copper, silver, gold, and border village gives you 140 palace points


Disclaimers:

1. I haven't verified that you can get to this game state (i.e. gaining all the last cards of the other piles and getting everything into your hand/where it needs to be), but it seems like it should be possible with the entire black market deck.

2. I'm not sure if anything in this allows unbounded VP gain with one buy. We can obviously leave offenders out of the black market deck, but I haven't fully thought through whether anything in the kingdom itself allows unbounded VP.


Feel free to comment if you spot any issues or anything.
Logged

majiponi

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 326
  • Respect: +245
    • View Profile
Re: Most VP from 1 buy
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2017, 06:57:24 am »
+1

Kingdom: Hermit, Masquerade, Bridge, Garden, Silk Road, Charm, Crown, Groundskeeper

Setup: inherit Groundskeeper, collect 7 Madmen, 24 Estates, 2 Hermits, 2 Bridges, 10 Charms, 9 Crowns, 8 Groundskeepers

play Madmen to draw whole
play 2 Bridges
play 2 Hermits to gain Crown, Groundskeeper
play 24 Estates and 9 Groundskeeper
play Crowns to play Charms, choosing gaining
buy Bridge, gaining 8 Gardens, 12 Silk Roads

In this way, you can earn 660 vps just from Groundskeepers.
Let's discuss the potential of this method.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2017, 03:35:08 am by majiponi »
Logged

luser

  • Tactician
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 426
  • Respect: +309
    • View Profile
Re: Most VP from 1 buy
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2017, 02:25:08 am »
0

Doctor(bane), black market, hunting grounds, duplicate, gardens, feodum, groundskeeper, charm, counterfeit, fairgrounds, duke, inheritance, tower.

4p game. Get 24 estates from bm masq. Inherit them as groundskeepers.

With nv draw deck and discard with storeroom.
Gain last cards of piles with ironworks/workshop.
 Play kc/bridge, princess, highway.
counterfeit charms for 20 buys.

Buy doctor, overpay lot coin tokens from bm baker.
Reveal tunnel/trader to empty silver/gold and trash 10 hg for duchies.
Gain/duplicate 12 gardens, 12 fairgrounds and 2 duchies, last copper and potion, death cart and rats. Gain curse from embargo.

As vp its 864 groundskeeper vp, 180 for duchy/duke, 156 feodum, 190 tower, 600 vp gardens, don't know about fairgrounds. Add few vp from trashing crumbling castle, vineyard and silk road.



« Last Edit: June 04, 2017, 02:26:21 am by luser »
Logged

majiponi

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 326
  • Respect: +245
    • View Profile
Re: Most VP from 1 buy
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2017, 11:15:35 am »
0

Kingdom: Hermit, Masquerade, Bridge, Garden, Silk Road, Charm, Crown, Groundskeeper

...

In this way, you can earn 660 vps just from Groundskeepers.
Let's discuss the potential of this method.

Optimized. 2597 vps just from Groundskeepers and such

Kingdom: Overlord, Black Market, Tunnel(Bane), Gardens, Silk Road, Band of Misfits, Charm, Counterfeit, Groundskeeper, Rogue, King's Court
Event: Ferry, Inheritance
Black Market Deck: Crossroads, Native Village, Stonemason, Masquerade, Village, Bridge, Ironworks, Island, Young Witch, Bridge Troll, Highway

Setup: inherit Groundskeeper, put all but 5 cards on your Native Village Mat, -$2 Token on Groundskeeper
Native Village Mat: 10 Overlords, 23 Estates, Stonemason, 3 Black Market, Masquerade, Village, Bridge, Ironworks, 10 Band of Misfits, 9 Charms, 9 Counterfeits, 8 Groundskeepers, Bridge Troll, Highway, 9 Rogues, Gold, 8 King's Courts

play Native Village to put all cards in hand
play Village
play Stonemason to trash Gold to gain Charm, Counterfeit
play 10 Overlords as Groundskeeper
play 10 Band of Misfits as Groundskeeper
play Black Market, 10 Counterfeits, 10 Charms (gain x20)
play 5 King's Courts to play Highway, 7 Rogues and Ironworks three times (gain 9 Counterfeits, 10 Charms, Gold, Estate, Groundskeeper, Rogue)
play Crossroads
play Black Market, 9 Counterfeits and 9 Charms (gain x18)
play 3 King's Courts to play 3 Rogues and Bridge three times (gain 5 Counterfeits, 4 Charms)
play 24 Estates, 9 Groundskeepers
play Bridge Troll
play Black Market, 5 Counterfeits, 5 Charms (gain x10)
buy Islands
gain 12 Tunnels, 12 Gardens, 12 Silk Roads, 12 Duchies, Island
« Last Edit: June 06, 2017, 07:29:29 pm by majiponi »
Logged

luser

  • Tactician
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 426
  • Respect: +309
    • View Profile
Re: Most VP from 1 buy
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2017, 05:03:04 pm »
0

Quote
Optimized. 2597 vps just from Groundskeepers and such
Not very optimized, lot of piles could be in black market like in my previous post.

Better is

overlord, black market, charm, band of misfits, groundskeeper, tunnel(bane), fairgrounds, gardens, silk road, duke, mandarin. Events ferry, inheritance.

Get all 24 estates, 10 overlords, 9 charm, 9 bom, 9 keepers, and all cards dominion cards in black market deck. Get everything in hand from bm native village.
Crown-artisan last bom/groundskeeper.
Play black market with 10 overlords as charm and 9 charms, for gains. gain mandarin with hop redraw with city quarter
Play black market with 10 overlords as charm and 9 charms, for gains. gain mandarin with university, redraw with cellar
Play black market with 10 overlords as charm and 9 charms, for gains. gain mandarin with hop, redraw with storeroom
Play black market with 10 overlords as charm and 9 charms, for gains. gain mandarin with artificer, redraw with crossroad
Play black market with 10 overlords as charm and 9 charms, for gains. gain mandarin with hop redraw with cantrips.

play overlords and bom as groundskeepers.
procession-bridge, get bridge back with lurker, kc-bridge, princess, highway, bridge troll, rc bridge, 1 short to empty colonies.
get all provinces, duchies, dukes, fairgrounds, gardens, silk roads and tunnels.

Logged

ThetaSigma12

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 1241
  • Respect: +967
    • View Profile
Re: Most VP from 1 buy
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2017, 05:06:03 pm »
+1

Quote
Optimized. 2597 vps just from Groundskeepers and such
overlords as charm
how does that work?
Logged
If you have a fan card you want to be created, just post about it here! I'd love to take a look at it.

majiponi

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 326
  • Respect: +245
    • View Profile
Re: Most VP from 1 buy
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2017, 04:56:39 am »
0

Quote
Optimized. 2597 vps just from Groundskeepers and such
overlords as charm
how does that work?
and how do I play Overlord as Groundskeeper? Its pile is now empty.

But you gave me nice idea. With Mandarin and Horn of Plenty, we can have another Victory pile.
Logged

luser

  • Tactician
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 426
  • Respect: +309
    • View Profile
Re: Most VP from 1 buy
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2017, 06:23:27 am »
0

Quote
Optimized. 2597 vps just from Groundskeepers and such
overlords as charm
how does that work?
and how do I play Overlord as Groundskeeper? Its pile is now empty.

But you gave me nice idea. With Mandarin and Horn of Plenty, we can have another Victory pile.
Easy technical detail, move getting/playing last groundskeeper with workshop at bottom. You couldn't do much better than my solution as all piles except crown, black market and mandarin are victory or played as groundskeeper. There is little vp improvement of feodum instead of duke or castles as yw bane if rules allow it.

Logged

majiponi

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 326
  • Respect: +245
    • View Profile
Re: Most VP from 1 buy
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2017, 09:34:51 am »
0

You couldn't do much better than my solution as all piles except crown, black market and mandarin are victory or played as groundskeeper.
I agree. This will be the best solution I can show now. 43 Groundskeepers x 85 Victories. Mandarin doesn't have to be in Supply (gain from Trash pile, reveal Watchtower to trash), but we don't have more than 3 cards which enables to salvage without a pile in Supply.
Quote
Kingdom: Overlord, Black Market, Tunnel(Bane), Feodum, Gardens, Islands, Silk Road, Band of Misfits, Charm, Groundskeeper, Mandarin

Event: Inheritance, Ferry

Black Market Deck: Lurker, Native Village, Stonemason, University, Hermit, Masquerade, Bridge, Mill, Young Witch, Bridge Troll, Highway, Horn of Plenty, Royal Carriage

Setup: inherit Groundskeeper, put all but 5 cards on your Native Village Mat
Native Village Mat: 10 Madman, 10 Overlords, 24 Estates, Lurker, Stonemason, University, 9 Black Markets, Masquerade, Bridge, Procession, 9 Band of Misfits, Bridge Troll, 9 Charms, Highway, Horn of Plenty, Royal Carriage, Gold, King's Court

play Native Village to put all cards in hand
play Stonemason to trash Gold to gain Charm, Band of Misfits
play 10 Overlords, 10 Band of Misfits as Groundskeeper
play University to gain Groundskeeper

do these 8 times:
play Black Market to play 10 Charms, Horn of Plenty
gain Mandarin
play Madman

play Royal Carriage
play Highway
play Procession to play Bridge twice
play Lurker to gain Bridge
play 2 Madmen
play King's Court to play Bridge three times
call Royal Carriage to replay Bridge
play Bridge Troll
play 24 Estates, 9 Groundskeepers
play Black Market, 4 Charms
buy Mill
gain all Victories
« Last Edit: June 08, 2017, 09:55:34 am by majiponi »
Logged

Limetime

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1223
  • Shuffle iT Username: limetime
  • Respect: +1031
    • View Profile
Re: Most VP from 1 buy
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2017, 10:10:32 am »
0

I know technically triumph isn't a card but what if you bought that.
Wait then you can get unbounded vp because of the villa infinite deck.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2017, 10:12:03 am by Limetime »
Logged

luser

  • Tactician
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 426
  • Respect: +309
    • View Profile
Re: Most VP from 1 buy
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2017, 01:48:28 pm »
0

Quote
    Kingdom: Overlord, Black Market, Tunnel(Bane), Feodum, Gardens, Islands, Silk Road, Band of Misfits, Charm, Groundskeeper, Mandarin
That still leaves lot of vp as it uses worst victory cards instead of best. In online game castle came as bane which improves points. I could get princess and return province to supply with amb by having player 2 moat, p3 procession lighthouse and p4 lurker lighthouse. Also colonies for bit more extra points.

Best vp are fairgrounds with bm containing everything they are worth 125 points each, without only 36. Similar with gardens that go around 50 points. Silk road is about 30 points each, if you count victories in black market deck. Feodum is only 13 points and duke 12 each.

Castles are best one as bane.  kings is worth most from green in hand and estates.

When I sum using gardens, fairgrounds, silk road, feodum and castles I get around 1600 vp.

Logged

majiponi

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 326
  • Respect: +245
    • View Profile
Re: Most VP from 1 buy
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2017, 11:34:21 pm »
0

Quote
    Kingdom: Overlord, Black Market, Tunnel(Bane), Feodum, Gardens, Islands, Silk Road, Band of Misfits, Charm, Groundskeeper, Mandarin
That still leaves lot of vp as it uses worst victory cards instead of best. In online game castle came as bane which improves points. I could get princess and return province to supply with amb by having player 2 moat, p3 procession lighthouse and p4 lurker lighthouse. Also colonies for bit more extra points.

Best vp are fairgrounds with bm containing everything they are worth 125 points each, without only 36. Similar with gardens that go around 50 points. Silk road is about 30 points each, if you count victories in black market deck. Feodum is only 13 points and duke 12 each.

Castles are best one as bane.  kings is worth most from green in hand and estates.

When I sum using gardens, fairgrounds, silk road, feodum and castles I get around 1600 vp.

I know. I felt tired to optimize Victories' points. I didn't know Castle can be used as Bene. How do you block Ambassador? Lighthouse has while-in-play effect.(Hint: Trade*) How do you get Colonies? They cost at least $1 (as you admit). Is it allowed to contain more than 15 cards in BM deck?
Logged

luser

  • Tactician
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 426
  • Respect: +309
    • View Profile
Re: Most VP from 1 buy
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2017, 12:01:16 am »
0

colonies are for silk road,+fairgrouds points not gain. Easier way to block amb is to use lighthouse, moat and trade. And current implementation bm contains lot more than 15 cards which would be quickly empty in it 2p games
Logged
Pages: [1]
 

Page created in 0.09 seconds with 20 queries.