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Author Topic: Playing Vassal  (Read 10539 times)

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LastFootnote

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Re: Playing Vassal
« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2017, 07:08:03 pm »
0

In the early game, cycling is so much more important than economy that they are practically the same and treating them as the same will surely increase your win rate.

I have (barely) broken the top 100 on Shuffle iT. I'm not really interested in increasing my win rate further.
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Seprix

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Re: Playing Vassal
« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2017, 07:13:02 pm »
+3

Can we talk about Vassal? If someone wants a conversation about Labs and Copper removal being the same thing, just make another thread pls
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Re: Playing Vassal
« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2017, 07:22:30 pm »
+7

Welcome to the forum! This thread is a great encapsulation of the quality, focused discussion about topics that we often have here. Hope you enjoy your stay!
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jonaskoelker

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Re: Playing Vassal
« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2017, 09:17:23 pm »
+1

hunting grounds-BM is barely any better than BMU according to simulator data.  not the best example =P
That just makes my edge case even edgier :P
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Awaclus

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Re: Playing Vassal
« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2017, 02:00:12 am »
0

In the early game, cycling is so much more important than economy that they are practically the same and treating them as the same will surely increase your win rate.

I have (barely) broken the top 100 on Shuffle iT. I'm not really interested in increasing my win rate further.

But other people might be, so you shouldn't be giving them advice that decreases it.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Playing Vassal
« Reply #30 on: May 26, 2017, 03:07:05 am »
+6

In the early game, cycling is so much more important than economy that they are practically the same and treating them as the same will surely increase your win rate.

I have (barely) broken the top 100 on Shuffle iT. I'm not really interested in increasing my win rate further.

But other people might be, so you shouldn't be giving them advice that decreases it.

Sorry, I forgot to add the part where I don't believe following your oversimplified, hyperbolic advice will actually help me at this stage.
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O

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Re: Playing Vassal
« Reply #31 on: May 26, 2017, 03:22:54 am »
+1

If i'm unlucky enough to hit C C C CH Si, I'm buying Upgrade, Junk Dealer, Wharf, Hunting Party consistently over chapelling 3 and situationally doing other cards such as Tactician, Storyteller, Archive, Cursers/Ruiners, Counterfeit.

Many of those will enable me to chapel away my estates more efficiently later on than chapeling the 3 coppers will. Some will hamper my opponent from doing so.

It's completely reductive and terrible strategy to pretend you must always empty your coppers if you hit a bad shuffle, and no amount of peddler-lab comparisons will change that.
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Awaclus

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Re: Playing Vassal
« Reply #32 on: May 26, 2017, 04:26:58 am »
0

If i'm unlucky enough to hit C C C CH Si, I'm buying Upgrade, Junk Dealer, Wharf, Hunting Party consistently over chapelling 3 and situationally doing other cards such as Tactician, Storyteller, Archive, Cursers/Ruiners, Counterfeit.

Many of those will enable me to chapel away my estates more efficiently later on than chapeling the 3 coppers will.

You shouldn't be doing that and the second statement isn't true.
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Titandrake

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Re: Playing Vassal
« Reply #33 on: May 27, 2017, 01:20:45 am »
+6

I'll actually defend $5 cost > trashing 3 Copper, but only if you're hoping you get lucky. In the absolute best case you get a dream draw and buying the $5 cost early makes up for not trashing 3 Copper. (For example, on turn 5 you draw Hunting Party, discard your entire deck, and Chapel your hand.) The problem is that outside of the lucky cases I think you're worse off than just trashing the 3 Coppers.

When you trash 3 Coppers, sometimes you get bad shuffles and are forced to buy a bunch of Silvers, then lose because you keep drawing your Chapel with your Silvers. But I think most of the time you're not that behind - you hit the 2nd Silver, draw 2 Silvers + Copper at some point to buy the $5, and then you're only a bit behind.

Awaclus, you really need to learn to argue better. Nobody cares when you say the same thing with slightly different wording, even if you think it's true.

If I draw Steward + 4 Copper, I'm almost always trashing 2 Copper instead of buying a $5 cost or Gold. And this feels like a more extreme version of the same scenario.
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luser

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Re: Playing Vassal
« Reply #34 on: May 27, 2017, 09:09:23 am »
0

Back to vassal its much better if you don't play base-only games, sentry is about worst of deck inspectors there. Also action only decks become relatively common with expansions. With wandering minstrel and apothecary its better than conspirator as you could trigger it as second card and you have reliably topdecked action. With wishing well it works relatively well too. With cartographer it plays like cartographer/mystic main problem is buying cartographers.
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allanfieldhouse

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Re: Playing Vassal
« Reply #35 on: June 02, 2017, 03:44:30 pm »
+3

Back to vassal its much better if you don't play base-only games

Artisan is in base now, and it's amazing for setting up Vassal. Rather than depending on luck of what's on (or near) the top of your deck, you just put any action you want right on top! Requires a village first, of course.
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werothegreat

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Re: Playing Vassal
« Reply #36 on: June 02, 2017, 04:55:37 pm »
0

How has no one mentioned Secret Passage with Vassal yet
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Re: Playing Vassal
« Reply #37 on: June 02, 2017, 05:41:05 pm »
0

How has no one mentioned Secret Passage with Vassal yet

Or Harbinger
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JThorne

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Re: Playing Vassal
« Reply #38 on: June 05, 2017, 10:18:36 am »
+1

Quote
I mean, using Vassal as a ghetto +2 Coin to make a double Tac engine work.

Trouble is, Vassal wants actions in your deck, not in your hand. Seems like an anti-synergy unless there's a ton of +actions, and even then, a hand of 10 cards, half of which need to be +actions to make the other half work seems less effective than a hand of 5 cards where Vassals can just play more Vassals off the top of the deck without +actions.

My favorite Vassal engine so far has been Herald/Vassal: The Forrest Gump deck.
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Playing Vassal
« Reply #39 on: June 05, 2017, 11:02:57 am »
+3

My favourite Vassal enabler is Pearl Diver, just because it's great so see something that actually combos with Pearl Diver.
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Chris is me

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Re: Playing Vassal
« Reply #40 on: June 05, 2017, 11:50:35 am »
0

One neat side bonus of a double Vassal opening - unless one of them is the last card of the deck, you guarantee neither miss the shuffle.

Vassal is great for those decks where you could have supported all Terminal Silver payload, but you want to save a few turns of buying all those Villages to enable those Terminal Silvers in the first place. It's also dope with Sentry.
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Qvist

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Re: Playing Vassal
« Reply #41 on: June 05, 2017, 07:25:35 pm »
0

My favourite Vassal enabler is Pearl Diver, just because it's great so see something that actually combos with Pearl Diver.

Or Vagrant

Chappy7

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Re: Playing Vassal
« Reply #42 on: June 13, 2017, 02:09:12 pm »
+1

Usually, I'm not a huge fan of Vassal.  If there are cards in the kingdom that work well with it like pearl diver, herald, secret passage, cartographer, etc, then I think it is really fun and great, but usually that isn't the case (At least when I've played with it). To me it has a little bit too much of a luck factor, like smugglers or tournament.  Of course, you can use strategy to make any of these cards a smart buy, but it seems to me like it is based on luck too often. 
Some people like that stuff, I just don't.
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Chris is me

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Re: Playing Vassal
« Reply #43 on: June 13, 2017, 02:14:53 pm »
0

Usually, I'm not a huge fan of Vassal.  If there are cards in the kingdom that work well with it like pearl diver, herald, secret passage, cartographer, etc, then I think it is really fun and great, but usually that isn't the case (At least when I've played with it). To me it has a little bit too much of a luck factor, like smugglers or tournament.  Of course, you can use strategy to make any of these cards a smart buy, but it seems to me like it is based on luck too often. 
Some people like that stuff, I just don't.

Fundamentally, Dominion is a probability management game. Vassal's luck component is very much in the control of the user, moreso than Tournament often is.

Smugglers has no luck whatsoever to it, not sure what you're talking about here.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2017, 02:24:53 pm by Chris is me »
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Awaclus

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Re: Playing Vassal
« Reply #44 on: June 13, 2017, 02:16:38 pm »
+4

Smugglers has no luck whatsoever to it, not sure what you're talking about here.

You can draw it after your opponent's E/E/E/C/C hand or you can draw it after their $5 hand.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Playing Vassal
« Reply #45 on: June 13, 2017, 02:37:26 pm »
+4

Smugglers has no luck whatsoever to it, not sure what you're talking about here.

You can draw it after your opponent's E/E/E/C/C hand or you can draw it after their $5 hand.

Every single card in Dominion has luck when you consider the luck of drawing it at the wrong vs right time. Smugglers probably feels different because wrong or right time is dependent upon what your opponent did last turn rather than what other cards you draw with it. But still, cards like Vassal, Wishing Well, Mystic, Herald, Lookout, etc; have luck in regards to what happens when you play them, which is different.

*Edit* It's not fundamentally different, really. Vassal's luck is also just "when did you draw it"... did you draw it when you had an action on top or not? But it matters that you don't find out if you're lucky under after you play the card, since playing the card is expensive (costs an action). With Smugglers, if you draw it at a bad time (when your opponent didn't buy anything you want), you can just choose to not play it and play a better terminal instead. But with Vassal, you have to make a decision without all the information. So it's not so much about luck vs not, but about how much information you have/need before making a decision.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2017, 02:40:06 pm by GendoIkari »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Playing Vassal
« Reply #46 on: June 14, 2017, 10:37:44 am »
+5

In fact, it occurs to me that Vassal breaks a common rule of Dominion that we learned about with Tournament.... with Tournament, Donald said that the +1 action wasn't conditional because you shouldn't spend time deciding if you really want to play it or not. Mystic, Wishing Well, and Herald all follow this idea. The exceptions seem to be Tribute (removed in second edition), Golem, and Vassal. These are the cards that when you play, you have to rely on luck to determine if the card was terminal or not. Are there others I'm forgetting?
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Loempiaverkoper

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Re: Playing Vassal
« Reply #47 on: June 14, 2017, 11:12:33 am »
+2

Are there others I'm forgetting?

It doesn't really count, but I can only think of double throne +terminal draw.
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Re: Playing Vassal
« Reply #48 on: June 14, 2017, 01:02:26 pm »
+3

In fact, it occurs to me that Vassal breaks a common rule of Dominion that we learned about with Tournament.... with Tournament, Donald said that the +1 action wasn't conditional because you shouldn't spend time deciding if you really want to play it or not. Mystic, Wishing Well, and Herald all follow this idea. The exceptions seem to be Tribute (removed in second edition), Golem, and Vassal. These are the cards that when you play, you have to rely on luck to determine if the card was terminal or not. Are there others I'm forgetting?

Well, there's only Avanto that I can think of now.
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Re: Playing Vassal
« Reply #49 on: June 14, 2017, 02:02:43 pm »
+1

In fact, it occurs to me that Vassal breaks a common rule of Dominion that we learned about with Tournament.... with Tournament, Donald said that the +1 action wasn't conditional because you shouldn't spend time deciding if you really want to play it or not. Mystic, Wishing Well, and Herald all follow this idea. The exceptions seem to be Tribute (removed in second edition), Golem, and Vassal. These are the cards that when you play, you have to rely on luck to determine if the card was terminal or not. Are there others I'm forgetting?

Well, there's only Avanto that I can think of now.
Sacrifice with +card token.
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