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Author Topic: Convert coin into coin tokens, but...  (Read 417 times)

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AJD

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Convert coin into coin tokens, but...
« on: May 19, 2017, 02:25:09 am »
+2

Rainy-Day Fund
+1 Card
+1 Action
While this is in play, when you buy a Copper,  you may overpay for it. If you do, take a coin token per $ you overpaid.


Is this balanceable, do you think? Cost of $3 seems plausible to me, but I dunno.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 02:27:49 am by AJD »
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Skumpy

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Re: Convert coin into coin tokens, but...
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2017, 05:41:40 am »
+1

I like the idea, but it doesn't really seem like a supply pile that you can really take advantage of; if you can run an engine, for instance, what's the point of picking up multiple copies?

As far as I know, there's no overpay event yet in official or fan cards (could be wrong, I'm not a fan card aficionado), so I think this could be a neat first. 2* seems most balanced to me (possibly 1*), but it would give a big advantage to 4-3 openings over 3-4.

Also, if it was an event, you might be able to take out the copper-clause. Get $4 on a turn and there's nothing good to do, then turning it into 2 coin tokens would have it's niches.
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faust

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Re: Convert coin into coin tokens, but...
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2017, 05:59:35 am »
0

As an event, I think this would be too similar to Save, which is just really more versatile and interesting.
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Chris is me

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Re: Convert coin into coin tokens, but...
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2017, 06:46:22 am »
0

As an event, I think this would be too similar to Save, which is just really more versatile and interesting.

Not at all. Save lets you hold exactly 1 card for 1 turn. This lets you turn an unbounded amount of money into coin tokens, to use for the rest of the game. Profoundly different effects.
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Convert coin into coin tokens, but...
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2017, 09:13:37 am »
0

Should playtest in games with Watchtower.
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AJD

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Re: Convert coin into coin tokens, but...
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2017, 09:19:48 am »
0

Should playtest in games with Watchtower.

Certainly. That said, Defiled Shrine seems to be okay.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Convert coin into coin tokens, but...
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2017, 10:41:17 am »
+3

One thing that's weird with it is that it's a somewhat cheap cantrip, but it's worthless to have multiple in play. So you probably only ever buy one, but then the fact that it's cheap and a cantrip doesn't make sense... so I think it would would better as either a terminal with some other good bonus, something that provides on play, or something that makes use of the extra Coppers you'll be getting.

Possibilities:

Rainy-Day Fund -
+1 Card
+1 Action
+
_________________________
While this is in play, when you buy a Copper,  you may overpay for it. If you do, take a coin token per you overpaid.


Probably too much like Baker there.

Rainy-Day Fund -
+
+1 buy
_________________________
While this is in play, when you buy a Copper,  you may overpay for it. If you do, take a coin token per you overpaid.


Weak, but it needs to be to not be strictly better than Woodcutter. I think the +buy helps in that you don't want to spend your only buy for a turn on a Copper.

Can't think of any ideas for making use of the extra Copper that aren't just too much like Moneylender, Stables, or Coppersmith.
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Re: Convert coin into coin tokens, but...
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2017, 01:15:36 pm »
+1

I think just adding +Buy to the original card would be enough to distinguish it. It should definitely give an extra buy.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Convert coin into coin tokens, but...
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2017, 01:30:08 pm »
0

I think just adding +Buy to the original card would be enough to distinguish it. It should definitely give an extra buy.

Yeah I didn't think of that, but it makes sense. It would be pretty similar in Market Square in function and strength... a cantrip +buy that has a second ability that you'll only use sometimes.
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trivialknot

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Re: Convert coin into coin tokens, but...
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2017, 01:35:17 pm »
+1

I think unlimited coin-to-coin-token conversion is likely broken, and having to buy a copper is not sufficient penalty.

Consider, Plaza lets you convert coin to coin tokens.  But to get as many coin tokens as Rainy-Day Fund would get you, you would need to buy a lot of Plazas.  Opportunity cost of lots of plazas >> cost of buying a copper.

Or, consider Merchant Guild.  Playing three Merchant Guilds in a turn and buying 4 copper for 12 coin tokens is pretty good.  Buy why do that, when you can have a Rainy-Day Fund, and buy the copper directly instead of buying Merchant Guild.

Also, for reference, Asper tried a $2 event that gave a coin token, and apparently it was autobuy.  IIRC, they also tried a terminal action that gave coin tokens and debt (or maybe that was someone else), and it turned out to be broken.
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trivialknot

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Re: Convert coin into coin tokens, but...
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2017, 01:47:07 pm »
0

IIRC, they also tried a terminal action that gave coin tokens and debt (or maybe that was someone else), and it turned out to be broken.
I found it.  It was a $4 treasure called Investment that gave 3 coin tokens and 3 debt.  Asper tested it and found that it discourages buying anything, and then you just get provinces and win.
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Kirian

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Re: Convert coin into coin tokens, but...
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2017, 05:52:06 pm »
0

I could see an event for gives a coin token for $3.  It's a pretty steep penalty at 3:1
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majiponi

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Re: Convert coin into coin tokens, but...
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2017, 04:57:24 am »
0

I also tried different versions of unlimited coin tokens, some are brokenly strong (2:1), some are uninteresting. Finally I reached the idea of "whenever useable Copper if you wish, and a nornal Copper after that". Penalize is very difficult.
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Holger

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Re: Convert coin into coin tokens, but...
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2017, 11:08:27 am »
0

IIRC, they also tried a terminal action that gave coin tokens and debt (or maybe that was someone else), and it turned out to be broken.
I found it.  It was a $4 treasure called Investment that gave 3 coin tokens and 3 debt.  Asper tested it and found that it discourages buying anything, and then you just get provinces and win.

Yes, $3 RDF is also Rebuild-level strong: If you open double RDF and get a third RDF as soon as you don't draw one, you can usually get 5 Provinces in 13-14 turns.
But like Rebuild, I think you can easily nerf RDF by increasing the price or removing a vanilla bonus. I'd try it at $5, or at $ 4 without the +1 Card.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2017, 11:17:12 am by Holger »
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4est

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Re: Convert coin into coin tokens, but...
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2017, 11:22:40 am »
0

The other most simple alternative is to add the copper overpay feature onto another Kingdom Treasure, like Masterpiece:

Rainy Day Fund - $3
Treasure

$1
---
When you buy this, you may overpay for it.  If you do, take a Coin Token per $1 you overpaid. 


This way, you would have to purchase more than one in order to get the benefit more than once, and it still provides the modest penalty of Rainy Day Fund being a copper once it's in your deck.  It's also not an unlimited source of Coin Tokens like an Event, since the pile can eventually run out. 

However, this might be pretty close to strictly superior than Masterpiece (aside from Feodom boards).  Additionally, like Asper's Investment and probably some of the other RDF/coin-to-coin-token variants discussed here, this would likely lead to some monolithic strategies. 
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Holger

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Re: Convert coin into coin tokens, but...
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2017, 01:21:14 pm »
0

The other most simple alternative is to add the copper overpay feature onto another Kingdom Treasure, like Masterpiece:

Rainy Day Fund - $3
Treasure

$1
---
When you buy this, you may overpay for it.  If you do, take a Coin Token per $1 you overpaid. 


This way, you would have to purchase more than one in order to get the benefit more than once, and it still provides the modest penalty of Rainy Day Fund being a copper once it's in your deck.  It's also not an unlimited source of Coin Tokens like an Event, since the pile can eventually run out. 

However, this might be pretty close to strictly superior than Masterpiece (aside from Feodom boards).  Additionally, like Asper's Investment and probably some of the other RDF/coin-to-coin-token variants discussed here, this would likely lead to some monolithic strategies.

Your version is also interesting, but probably far weaker than the original because you can never convert all your $ into coin tokens in one turn (the first $3 must pay for the RDF itself), and of course you get multiple "Coppers" as penalty if you want to convert more than once. When you have exactly $5, I'd clearly prefer Baker in the early game: Baker will give you much more than 2 coin tokens over the game, without a Copper as penalty.

It's rather similar to Masterpiece, but not at all strictly better - Silvers are not strictly worse than coin tokens, e.g. you'll prefer Silvers in the early/mid phase in most BM games.

I don't think either version of RDF leads to monolithic strategies, as long as you make it weak enough that RDF-BM is not dominant. RDF just allows you to convert several mediocre turns into one good turn, similar to Tactician. Or if there's +Buy available, it allows you to make a multi-Province megaturn after hoarding the tokens for a while (like the other Guilds cards do), but you'll still need to build a good deck that gives you lots of $ each turn, in order to be competitive.
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