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Author Topic: Effect of Outpost in a Possession'ed turn?  (Read 315 times)

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jonaskoelker

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Effect of Outpost in a Possession'ed turn?
« on: May 11, 2017, 06:39:34 am »
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Setup: two-player game between Alice and Bob.



Alice plays Possession on her turn. Next turn is Bob's, possessed by Alice. On that turn, Bob/Alice plays Outpost. What happens next?

My guess:

If Outpost didn't say "This canít cause you to take more than two consecutive turns", then Bob would take a 3-card turn followed by Bob taking a normal turn.  (Then, barring any turn-order manipulation it would be Alice's turn, then Bob again, etc.)

However, this would mean that Bob takes three consecutive turns: one possessed by Alice, one introduced by his own Outpost, and one normal turn.

Since Outpost rules out this particular outcome, one (or more?!) of the turns must be omitted.

I think logic would disappear in a puff of divinity if one were to skip the possessed turn, since the need to skip a turn only arises during that turn---general rule: turns that have already begun can not be skipped?

I also think it would be inconsistent with "do as much as you can" to skip the extra turn introduced by Outpost.

Hence, by process of elimination I conclude that Bob's normal turn would be skipped (and only that turn).

Do people agree/disagree with my conclusion? With my way of reasoning?
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Effect of Outpost in a Possession'ed turn?
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2017, 07:17:35 am »
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Bob would first take a 3-card Outpost turn, as part of the resolution of the Outpost played while he was being Possessed. That concludes the effects of the Possession turn; it then moves on to Bob's normal turn.
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Re: Effect of Outpost in a Possession'ed turn?
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2017, 11:47:56 am »
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However, if you had throne'd Possession then played Outpost at the end of the second one, it wouldn't do anything because you had already taken consecutive turns (through Possession).

Here's the way that I think of it: each player has an extra turn queue.  Every card that gives extra turns just add to the extra turn queue.  At the end of the turn, you look at the extra turn queue and do any of them in player order.  If there are multiple, the player gets to choose.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

werothegreat

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Re: Effect of Outpost in a Possession'ed turn?
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2017, 12:04:53 pm »
+1

Outpost is being reworded in the 2nd edition - see Shuffle it's implementation.  Bob takes the 3-card turn, then the normal turn.
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jonaskoelker

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Re: Effect of Outpost in a Possession'ed turn?
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2017, 01:47:57 pm »
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Outpost is being reworded in the 2nd edition - see Shuffle it's implementation.  Bob takes the 3-card turn, then the normal turn.
Is there somewhere I can access the new wording, given that I'm not a paying subscriber of dominion.games? If not, could you post the wording here?

Bob would first take a 3-card Outpost turn, as part of the resolution of the Outpost played while he was being Possessed. That concludes the effects of the Possession turn; it then moves on to Bob's normal turn.
Is there some line of reasoning that leads to this conclusion?  Some set of principles being applied? Since your conclusion is different from mine, assuming you're right, my assumptions and/or deductions must be wrong; how/where?

However, if you had throne'd Possession then played Outpost at the end of the second one, it wouldn't do anything because you had already taken consecutive turns (through Possession).
I assume the first 'you' means Alice and the second 'you' means Bob, since it's Bob who's taking the Possession'ed turns; if so, then what you say matches my understanding of the rules and cards.

Here's the way that I think of it: each player has an extra turn queue.  Every card that gives extra turns just add to the extra turn queue.  At the end of the turn, you look at the extra turn queue and do any of them in player order.  If there are multiple, the player gets to choose.
So, some implications of that: if Alice plays both Possession, Outpost and Mission on her turn, Alice chooses whether the Mission or Outpost turn happens next; in either case she will have a 3-card starting hand in that turn (because the drawing happens in the modified cleanup phase of the turn in which P+O+M are being played).

Then... I'm still not sure how Outpost works, so I'll say that if there's a second extra turn, it must be taken before the Possession'ed turn. Then the Possession'ed turn happens, then Bob's normal turn (if no more extra turns are introduced.)

Is that right?

Also, choosing between multiple extra turns is a thing that makes sense, because some of them might have restrictions attached to them (if they're Mission turns).  I think Mission-turn-or-not is the only thing that characterizes a turn before it happens, so instead of a queue you might as well have two counters and choose which to decrement, agree?

Well, actually, this gives me an interpretation of Outpost that matches Jack Rudd's claims: it adds a turn to the extra-turn-queue of the player who played it, if and only if said extra-turn-queue is empty.

Implication: if you play Outpost before Mission you get to take three consecutive turns, but if you play Mission before Outpost (I think Villa might be necessary) then the Outpost does nothing (except cost you cards, depending on edition). Agree?
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Re: Effect of Outpost in a Possession'ed turn?
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2017, 02:28:03 pm »
+2

Regarding the old wording: Outpost does not "look ahead" and see whether you will be taking more turns after the Outpost turn. It just cares whether, when you would take the Outpost turn, the previous two turns were yours.

The new wording is
Quote
If this is the first time you played an Outpost this turn, and the previous turn wasn't yours, then take an extra turn after this one, and you only draw 3 cards for your next hand.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2017, 02:34:54 pm by singletee »
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Re: Effect of Outpost in a Possession'ed turn?
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2017, 02:30:29 pm »
+2

Outpost is being reworded in the 2nd edition - see Shuffle it's implementation.  Bob takes the 3-card turn, then the normal turn.
Is there somewhere I can access the new wording, given that I'm not a paying subscriber of dominion.games? If not, could you post the wording here?
"If this is the first time you played an Outpost this turn, and the previous turn wasn't yours, then take an extra turn after this one, and you only draw 3 cards for your next hand."
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werothegreat

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Re: Effect of Outpost in a Possession'ed turn?
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2017, 05:29:52 pm »
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Outpost is being reworded in the 2nd edition - see Shuffle it's implementation.  Bob takes the 3-card turn, then the normal turn.
Is there somewhere I can access the new wording, given that I'm not a paying subscriber of dominion.games? If not, could you post the wording here?
"If this is the first time you played an Outpost this turn, and the previous turn wasn't yours, then take an extra turn after this one, and you only draw 3 cards for your next hand."

This new wording also means you can successfully get a Mission and Outpost turn after a normal turn, and choose in which order to take them.  I would recommend taking the Mission turn first, to soak up the 3-card disadvantage. :)
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