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Author Topic: Effect of Outpost in a Possession'ed turn?  (Read 623 times)

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jonaskoelker

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Effect of Outpost in a Possession'ed turn?
« on: May 11, 2017, 06:39:34 am »
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Setup: two-player game between Alice and Bob.



Alice plays Possession on her turn. Next turn is Bob's, possessed by Alice. On that turn, Bob/Alice plays Outpost. What happens next?

My guess:

If Outpost didn't say "This canít cause you to take more than two consecutive turns", then Bob would take a 3-card turn followed by Bob taking a normal turn.  (Then, barring any turn-order manipulation it would be Alice's turn, then Bob again, etc.)

However, this would mean that Bob takes three consecutive turns: one possessed by Alice, one introduced by his own Outpost, and one normal turn.

Since Outpost rules out this particular outcome, one (or more?!) of the turns must be omitted.

I think logic would disappear in a puff of divinity if one were to skip the possessed turn, since the need to skip a turn only arises during that turn---general rule: turns that have already begun can not be skipped?

I also think it would be inconsistent with "do as much as you can" to skip the extra turn introduced by Outpost.

Hence, by process of elimination I conclude that Bob's normal turn would be skipped (and only that turn).

Do people agree/disagree with my conclusion? With my way of reasoning?
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Effect of Outpost in a Possession'ed turn?
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2017, 07:17:35 am »
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Bob would first take a 3-card Outpost turn, as part of the resolution of the Outpost played while he was being Possessed. That concludes the effects of the Possession turn; it then moves on to Bob's normal turn.
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Re: Effect of Outpost in a Possession'ed turn?
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2017, 11:47:56 am »
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However, if you had throne'd Possession then played Outpost at the end of the second one, it wouldn't do anything because you had already taken consecutive turns (through Possession).

Here's the way that I think of it: each player has an extra turn queue.  Every card that gives extra turns just add to the extra turn queue.  At the end of the turn, you look at the extra turn queue and do any of them in player order.  If there are multiple, the player gets to choose.
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werothegreat

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Re: Effect of Outpost in a Possession'ed turn?
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2017, 12:04:53 pm »
+2

Outpost is being reworded in the 2nd edition - see Shuffle it's implementation.  Bob takes the 3-card turn, then the normal turn.
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jonaskoelker

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Re: Effect of Outpost in a Possession'ed turn?
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2017, 01:47:57 pm »
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Outpost is being reworded in the 2nd edition - see Shuffle it's implementation.  Bob takes the 3-card turn, then the normal turn.
Is there somewhere I can access the new wording, given that I'm not a paying subscriber of dominion.games? If not, could you post the wording here?

Bob would first take a 3-card Outpost turn, as part of the resolution of the Outpost played while he was being Possessed. That concludes the effects of the Possession turn; it then moves on to Bob's normal turn.
Is there some line of reasoning that leads to this conclusion?  Some set of principles being applied? Since your conclusion is different from mine, assuming you're right, my assumptions and/or deductions must be wrong; how/where?

However, if you had throne'd Possession then played Outpost at the end of the second one, it wouldn't do anything because you had already taken consecutive turns (through Possession).
I assume the first 'you' means Alice and the second 'you' means Bob, since it's Bob who's taking the Possession'ed turns; if so, then what you say matches my understanding of the rules and cards.

Here's the way that I think of it: each player has an extra turn queue.  Every card that gives extra turns just add to the extra turn queue.  At the end of the turn, you look at the extra turn queue and do any of them in player order.  If there are multiple, the player gets to choose.
So, some implications of that: if Alice plays both Possession, Outpost and Mission on her turn, Alice chooses whether the Mission or Outpost turn happens next; in either case she will have a 3-card starting hand in that turn (because the drawing happens in the modified cleanup phase of the turn in which P+O+M are being played).

Then... I'm still not sure how Outpost works, so I'll say that if there's a second extra turn, it must be taken before the Possession'ed turn. Then the Possession'ed turn happens, then Bob's normal turn (if no more extra turns are introduced.)

Is that right?

Also, choosing between multiple extra turns is a thing that makes sense, because some of them might have restrictions attached to them (if they're Mission turns).  I think Mission-turn-or-not is the only thing that characterizes a turn before it happens, so instead of a queue you might as well have two counters and choose which to decrement, agree?

Well, actually, this gives me an interpretation of Outpost that matches Jack Rudd's claims: it adds a turn to the extra-turn-queue of the player who played it, if and only if said extra-turn-queue is empty.

Implication: if you play Outpost before Mission you get to take three consecutive turns, but if you play Mission before Outpost (I think Villa might be necessary) then the Outpost does nothing (except cost you cards, depending on edition). Agree?
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Re: Effect of Outpost in a Possession'ed turn?
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2017, 02:28:03 pm »
+2

Regarding the old wording: Outpost does not "look ahead" and see whether you will be taking more turns after the Outpost turn. It just cares whether, when you would take the Outpost turn, the previous two turns were yours.

The new wording is
Quote
If this is the first time you played an Outpost this turn, and the previous turn wasn't yours, then take an extra turn after this one, and you only draw 3 cards for your next hand.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2017, 02:34:54 pm by singletee »
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faust

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Re: Effect of Outpost in a Possession'ed turn?
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2017, 02:30:29 pm »
+2

Outpost is being reworded in the 2nd edition - see Shuffle it's implementation.  Bob takes the 3-card turn, then the normal turn.
Is there somewhere I can access the new wording, given that I'm not a paying subscriber of dominion.games? If not, could you post the wording here?
"If this is the first time you played an Outpost this turn, and the previous turn wasn't yours, then take an extra turn after this one, and you only draw 3 cards for your next hand."
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werothegreat

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Re: Effect of Outpost in a Possession'ed turn?
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2017, 05:29:52 pm »
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Outpost is being reworded in the 2nd edition - see Shuffle it's implementation.  Bob takes the 3-card turn, then the normal turn.
Is there somewhere I can access the new wording, given that I'm not a paying subscriber of dominion.games? If not, could you post the wording here?
"If this is the first time you played an Outpost this turn, and the previous turn wasn't yours, then take an extra turn after this one, and you only draw 3 cards for your next hand."

This new wording also means you can successfully get a Mission and Outpost turn after a normal turn, and choose in which order to take them.  I would recommend taking the Mission turn first, to soak up the 3-card disadvantage. :)
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rubikbeggar

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Re: Effect of Outpost in a Possession'ed turn?
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2017, 10:35:20 am »
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But this new wording changes the behaviour of the physical Outpost card, doesn't it ?

I mean, for Mission the verification that the previous turn wasn't yours happens not when you create the extra turn, but when you buy the Mission, so that's why even if you play your Outpost turn just after your normal turn, you can still play the Mission turn even if the previous turn was yours (it was your normal turn).

For the old wording of Outpost, the check to see if an extra turn can happen occurs after Outpost is supposed to be discarded, and that's why Outpost would stay in play (because a Duration) until it doesn't affect the next turn anymore.

But with the new wording, doesn't Outpost becomes like Mission ? The check is done when you play the Outpost, and if the conditions are verified (first Outpost and previous turn not yours), it creates necessarily and immediately an extra turn. So it doesn't do anything on the next turn anymore, and should be discarded as if not a Duration.

I hope that I'm intelligible. Thanks for answering !
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LastFootnote

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Re: Effect of Outpost in a Possession'ed turn?
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2017, 11:25:26 am »
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That all seems correct to me.
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rubikbeggar

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Re: Effect of Outpost in a Possession'ed turn?
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2017, 11:39:25 am »
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So now, Outpost will never stay in play more than one turn ?
Because contrary to the previous wording, if you play extra Outposts, they will be like extra Tactitians and will be discarded.
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Jeebus

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Re: Effect of Outpost in a Possession'ed turn?
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2017, 11:45:04 am »
+1

But with the new wording, doesn't Outpost becomes like Mission ? The check is done when you play the Outpost, and if the conditions are verified (first Outpost and previous turn not yours), it creates necessarily and immediately an extra turn. So it doesn't do anything on the next turn anymore, and should be discarded as if not a Duration.

I think LastFootnote missed this part. No, Outpost stays in play if it gives you an extra turn. Your extra turn is Outpost's future effect that isn't resolved yet, even though Outpost doesn't check anything in the future. Besides, Outpost makes you draw 3 cards instead of 5, which is also a future effect that isn't resolved yet at the time you're discarding cards in Clean-up.

rubikbeggar

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Re: Effect of Outpost in a Possession'ed turn?
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2017, 11:58:36 am »
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Then why does the wiki say : "This makes Outpost an exception to the basic rule that Duration cards are discarded from play during the Clean-up phase of the last turn on which they "do something"; Outpost doesn't do anything on the extra turn it creates, but it is not cleaned up until the end of the extra turn regardless." ?

EDIT : The new wording is official, no ? So we need to make erratas on the wiki pages of Mission, Outpost and Possession.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 12:54:05 pm by rubikbeggar »
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Jeebus

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Re: Effect of Outpost in a Possession'ed turn?
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2017, 01:18:05 pm »
+1

Then why does the wiki say : "This makes Outpost an exception to the basic rule that Duration cards are discarded from play during the Clean-up phase of the last turn on which they "do something"; Outpost doesn't do anything on the extra turn it creates, but it is not cleaned up until the end of the extra turn regardless." ?

I would say it's because the wiki is wrong. First of all, Outpost stays in play because of the draw in Clean-up, completly unrelated to the issue of the extra turn.

The misunderstanding is that Outpost gives you an extra turn "immediately". It doesn't do this any more than Caravan gives you +1 Card "immediately". The extra turn happens after this turn, just as the +1 Card happens at the start of your next turn. They both set up this effect immediately though. When you play Caravan, there is no question that you'll get the +1 Card later, no more checking is necessary. But Caravan still stays in play, because the future effect is not resolved yet.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 11:12:48 am by Jeebus »
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rubikbeggar

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Re: Effect of Outpost in a Possession'ed turn?
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2017, 01:30:44 pm »
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Ok, I forgot that even if you trashed a Caravan from play, it would still do its effect. It's like the difference between Highway and Bridge when Throne Roomed.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Effect of Outpost in a Possession'ed turn?
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2017, 02:02:52 pm »
+1

Then why does the wiki say : "This makes Outpost an exception to the basic rule that Duration cards are discarded from play during the Clean-up phase of the last turn on which they "do something"; Outpost doesn't do anything on the extra turn it creates, but it is not cleaned up until the end of the extra turn regardless." ?

I would say it's because the wiki is wrong. First of all, Outpost stays in play because of the draw in Clean-up, completly unrelated to the issue of the extra turn.

The misunderstanding is that Outpost doesn't give you an extra turn "immediately", no more than Caravan gives you +1 Card "immediately". The extra turn happens after this turn, just as the +1 Card happens at the start of your next turn. They both set up this effect immediately though. When you play Caravan, there is no question that you'll get the +1 Card later, no more checking is necessary. But Caravan still stays in play, because the future effect is not resolved yet.

Not quite. Outpost is an exception because on the turn where it will be cleaned up (the Outpost extra turn), it didn't actually do anything. It does 2 things; 1 during the cleanup of this turn (makes you draw 3 cards instead of 5), and one after this turn but before the next (makes you take an extra turn). Neither of those things happen next turn. Meaning, it is indeed an exception to the normal rule "discarded during cleanup of the last turn that it did something".

A better way to rephrase that rule, which would include Outpost normally while keeping all other durations the same, would be "durations are discarded during the first cleanup step in which they no longer have anything left to do".
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rubikbeggar

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Re: Effect of Outpost in a Possession'ed turn?
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2017, 02:13:02 pm »
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Yes indeed, it's the general rule that comes to mind when reading all the Rule clarifications of Outpost, like :

"Any Outpost (or Throne Room variant) still in play after your turn(s) due to failing to produce an extra turn are discarded during the next Clean-up phase: that of the player to your left."
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Re: Effect of Outpost in a Possession'ed turn?
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2017, 02:39:09 pm »
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Not quite. Outpost is an exception because on the turn where it will be cleaned up (the Outpost extra turn), it didn't actually do anything. It does 2 things; 1 during the cleanup of this turn (makes you draw 3 cards instead of 5), and one after this turn but before the next (makes you take an extra turn). Neither of those things happen next turn. Meaning, it is indeed an exception to the normal rule "discarded during cleanup of the last turn that it did something".

A better way to rephrase that rule, which would include Outpost normally while keeping all other durations the same, would be "durations are discarded during the first cleanup step in which they no longer have anything left to do".

Yes, I was going by that rephrasing. I thought it was the de facto rule, considering that Donald has talked about Outpost's "draw 3" effect keeping it from being discarded since it's not resolved at the point in Clean-up when you discard. The effect is resolved later in Clean-up, so in the same turn.

But even without that rephrasing, I think it's a stretch to claim that the effect that produces an extra turn is not doing anything on that turn. It's actually making you take that turn! I would say that is doing something.

Just a note: You say it does this "after this turn but before the next", which is true at first, but not true when it's being resolved, because by that time the "next turn" is the actual extra turn, so it's not "before" it. Rather it is it. So yes, it happens "next turn".

sudgy

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Re: Effect of Outpost in a Possession'ed turn?
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2017, 03:29:49 pm »
+2

Yes indeed, it's the general rule that comes to mind when reading all the Rule clarifications of Outpost, like :

"Any Outpost (or Throne Room variant) still in play after your turn(s) due to failing to produce an extra turn are discarded during the next Clean-up phase: that of the player to your left."

I'm pretty sure that with the new version of Outpost, though, they won't stay around to try if they fail (meaning that they'll never get discarded on another player's turn anymore).
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