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GendoIkari

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Peddler-type cards, part 2
« on: May 05, 2017, 01:56:13 pm »
+4

So many years ago I made a post to list/discuss the Peddler-variants that existed. Well there are more now, so I'm doing this again:

  • Oasis: , with the drawback of discarding a card.
  • Market: , with a +buy.
  • Highway: , with the benefit of being worth more when you buy more. Also benefit for things like Remodel/Ironworks/etc.
  • Treasury: , with the benefit of putting back on top of your deck if you didn't buy a victory card.
  • Peddler: Variable cost, usually purchased for less than . Extra benefit for trash-for-benefits.
  • Tournament: , you only get the full benefit sometimes (every time early in the game). Also benefit of gaining prizes.
  • Bazaar (Thanks rinkworks): , gives an extra action also.
  • Poacher: , the closest thing we'll see to the Peddler, and the card that means we won't ever see a Peddler. Minor drawback in some games, sometimes no drawback at all. In some games the drawback could hurt a bunch.
  • Artificer: , added benefit of optionally discarding cards to gain another card. Like a weaker Secret Chamber tacked on?
  • Junk Dealer: , you get to (have to) trash a card from your hand when you play it. Doesn't feel like a Peddler because it plays much more like a cantrip trasher with a coin tacked on than a cantrip coin with trashing tacked on. But still clearly fits the formula.
  • Baker: , benefit of getting a coin token instead of a coin, which ranges from a little better to much better.
  • Emporium: , is often worth 2 when you gain it, but you have to clear out the top half of the pile before you can gain them.
  • Settlers: , with the drawback that it only works when you have a Copper in your discard pile. Big drawback if you can trash your Coppers.
  • Merchant: , drawback of only working if you play a Silver that turn.
  • Caravan Guard: , drawback of being a Duration, unless you use its reaction, in which case it's a normal Peddler.
  • Chariot Race: , only works if the card you draw is more expensive than your left-hand opponent's top card. But when it works, it's also a .
  • Ironmonger: , only a Peddler when your top card is a treasure. But always gives you something, and it's even better than a Peddler when your top card is a treasure you don't want, like a Copper.

Honorable mentions (these were in my original list, but I agree with those who said that they didn't really feel like Peddler variants):
  • City: , only level 3 Cities give you that full benefit, and they give you much more, too.
  • Grand Market: , gives an extra buy and an extra coin; cost is more than 6 in terms of ease of purchase.
  • Conspirator (Thanks rinkworks): , only gives the full bonus after 2 other actions, but the bonus gives an extra coin.
  • Mystic: , if Conspirator is an honorable mention, so is this. When it works, it's an activated Conspirator. Otherwise, it's just a Silver.
  • Venture: , has a virtual +1 action as a result of being a treasure, and its +1 card is always a treasure.

And interesting to note that with Adventures tokens, there's a whole bunch of cards that you can turn into Peddler+ cards; just add the + token to any cantrip, or add the +1 card token to cards like Lighthouse.

So 10 new ones (and 2 honorable mentions) since last time! That's a lot... only 7 of them throughout the first 7 sets, and now 10 new ones from just 4 new sets (and second edition sets).
« Last Edit: May 05, 2017, 02:35:04 pm by GendoIkari »
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AJD

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Re: Peddler-type cards, part 2
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2017, 02:07:43 pm »
0

Settlers is kiiiind of a Peddler variant.

(And Grand Market is definitely a Peddler variant.)
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LastFootnote

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Re: Peddler-type cards, part 2
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2017, 02:08:43 pm »
+1

Merchant.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Peddler-type cards, part 2
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2017, 02:09:55 pm »
0

Settlers is kiiiind of a Peddler variant.

(And Grand Market is definitely a Peddler variant.)

Just thought of Settlers and added it in as you were posting that.

LF, good call on Merchant.
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aku_chi

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Re: Peddler-type cards, part 2
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2017, 02:20:14 pm »
+2

Caravan Guard (duration Peddler - sometimes you get the coin on the same turn as the card)
Chariot Race (conditional Peddler+)
Ironmonger (often a Peddler+ early)
Venture (has a lot of similarities to Peddler, but it can't be drawn dead and it only draws treasures)
« Last Edit: May 05, 2017, 02:22:57 pm by aku_chi »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Peddler-type cards, part 2
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2017, 02:27:19 pm »
0

Caravan Guard (duration Peddler - sometimes you get the coin on the same turn as the card)
Chariot Race (conditional Peddler+)
Ironmonger (often a Peddler+ early)
Venture (has a lot of similarities to Peddler, but it can't be drawn dead and it only draws treasures)

I was even thinking of Caravan Guard when deciding to make this post, then forgot it. Unsure about Venture, but the others are definitely good. I see what you're saying with Venture, it just seems too different; +1 action feels a lot different from "treasure, so you don't need an action to play it". Especially since the +1 action on Peddler can be used to play a bunch of Peddlers and then a terminal action like Goons.
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werothegreat

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GendoIkari

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Re: Peddler-type cards, part 2
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2017, 03:03:32 pm »
0

http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Peddler_variant

That too I suppose!

Looks like there's just 4 on that list not on mine, and none the other way around. Mining Village, Mill, and Vassal I think belong in the honorable mentions. Tribute feels like a big stretch...
« Last Edit: May 05, 2017, 03:05:49 pm by GendoIkari »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Peddler-type cards, part 2
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2017, 03:18:43 pm »
0

Especially since the +1 action on Peddler can be used to play a bunch of Peddlers and then a terminal action like Goons.

The Treasure card type on Venture can be used to play a terminal Action like Goons and then play a bunch of Ventures.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Peddler-type cards, part 2
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2017, 03:29:20 pm »
+1

Especially since the +1 action on Peddler can be used to play a bunch of Peddlers and then a terminal action like Goons.

The Treasure card type on Venture can be used to play a terminal Action like Goons and then play a bunch of Ventures.

I did think about that; but the big difference still is that a Venture is a stop card, while Peddler is not. I guess that's more related to the lack of a real +1 card than a lack of a real +1 action... starting your turn with a hand of 5 Peddlers means you just have an extra this turn on top of whatever your deck does (you can still draw your deck and play a bunch of Goons and whatever else your deck would do if it had no Peddlers in it). Starting your turn with a hand of 5 Ventures means you just have a bunch of money to spend and nothing else.
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Cuzz

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Re: Peddler-type cards, part 2
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2017, 10:48:34 am »
0

  • Artificer: , added benefit of optionally discarding cards to gain another card. Like a weaker Secret Chamber tacked on?

How is that like secret chamber?
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Awaclus

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Re: Peddler-type cards, part 2
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2017, 10:53:30 am »
0

How is that like secret chamber?

Secret Chamber gives you $1 of value per card you discard. So does Artificer.
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Re: Peddler-type cards, part 2
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2017, 11:14:52 am »
+1

Peddler variants are some of my favorite cards.
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JThorne

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Re: Peddler-type cards, part 2
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2017, 11:54:36 am »
0

Is there any math-y treatment of Peddler variants talking about statistics and economy and engine-building?

Sometimes a kingdom has no draw other than peddler variants, but anyone that's ever played with something like Forager and Peddler knows that it's possible to end up with a deck with nothing but Peddlers in it pretty quickly.

An all-Peddler deck is super-consistent...until the deck has 5 stop cards in it, at which point, it's essentially guaranteed to stall, but only after playing a few cards (how many, on average?) and finally drawing all 5 stops.

So: What's the formula for average cash-per-hand based on a five-card hand, the total number of stop cards in the deck and the total number of Peddlers? That might offer some guidance about when to start greening, how many Provinces/Duchies you'll likely get, especially if one of the stop card is a terminal +buy.
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Re: Peddler-type cards, part 2
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2017, 06:55:26 pm »
+2

Is there any math-y treatment of Peddler variants talking about statistics and economy and engine-building?

Sometimes a kingdom has no draw other than peddler variants, but anyone that's ever played with something like Forager and Peddler knows that it's possible to end up with a deck with nothing but Peddlers in it pretty quickly.

An all-Peddler deck is super-consistent...until the deck has 5 stop cards in it, at which point, it's essentially guaranteed to stall, but only after playing a few cards (how many, on average?) and finally drawing all 5 stops.

So: What's the formula for average cash-per-hand based on a five-card hand, the total number of stop cards in the deck and the total number of Peddlers? That might offer some guidance about when to start greening, how many Provinces/Duchies you'll likely get, especially if one of the stop card is a terminal +buy.

If p is the number of Peddlers in your deck, and s the number of stop cards, then this is the formula for the expected coin value on a given turn (assuming none of the stop cards actually provide coin):
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faust

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Re: Peddler-type cards, part 2
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2017, 06:57:31 pm »
0

Which probably explains why nobody has yet given this any extensive treatment.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

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Re: Peddler-type cards, part 2
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2017, 09:24:42 am »
0

Treasury needs an article. I think I'll write one after my AP test.
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Re: Peddler-type cards, part 2
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2017, 02:48:53 pm »
0

I'm a sucker for Peddler variants. So simple, yet so comprehensive in their effects. Seaside was the first set I owned, so Treasury is my nostalgic pick for favorite card ever.
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