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[sudgy]

I was maybe going to try to do something productive in this time now that you know I'm town, but you all don't seem to want to, so I'm out of here.

[Robz888]

Thread locked.

[Robz888]

Vote Count 8.Final

sudgy (3): Galzria, Dylan32, O

Not Voting (2): SpaceAnemone, sudgy

With 5 alive it took 3 to lynch.

[Robz888]

Sorry guys, I'm behind. Like haven't even read - behind. I'll try to get to it tonight.

Undercontributing Eevee is a scum tell.  You posts since you said this.

It's still tonight, I'm not done. I have a friend over, but I'm trying to finish the read of day 2 today,

You've falsely called undercontributing Eevee scum Eevee 4 games in a row now though!

At least I'm consistent.

Mcmc, I think you are GREATLY exaggareting how solid your liopoil-case is.

I'm town you wrong. Also I said that I reread eevee(town) in pirates(I was scum) and made a case on him the same way. So I was saying if it looked alot like my scum case on eevee that was why. Also omg liopoil and me are a scum team!!!!! I would not by any means make this case if that was so. I do not bus teammates like this because it is bad. It shows connection if one of you flips scum(I have talked about tying to a townie all the time) However I agree liopoil is scummy the way he is responding with no omgus(He used to, I think he's better now)

I'm town you wrong. Also I said that I reread eevee(town) in pirates(I was scum) and made a case on him the same way. So I was saying if it looked alot like my scum case on eevee that was why. Also omg liopoil and me are a scum team!!!!! I would not by any means make this case if that was so. I do not bus teammates like this because it is bad. It shows connection if one of you flips scum(I have talked about tying to a townie all the time) However I agree liopoil is scummy the way he is responding with no omgus(He used to, I think he's better now)

I have bolded your scumslip for your perusal.

Sudgy, the Vanilla Townie, has been lynched!

Night 8 begins now. All players must check-in with me by posting in their QTs. Actions are due within 48 hours. Day 9 will begin no later than Tuesday, July 11, at 11:00 PM Forum Time, though it could begin earlier.

[Robz888]

Isn't voting highly dangerous in MILO?

Sorry I don't understand "MILO"

MILO: If misslynch, then loss (probably)

Later...

Since I'm leaving early Friday morning, I'm going to park my vote on someone tomorrow night either based on Axxle's suggestion or my own reasoning if I don't hear from him.

Since I'm leaving early Friday morning, I'm going to park my vote on someone tomorrow night either based on Axxle's suggestion or my own reasoning if I don't hear from him.

It's freaking lylo..

O, the Vanilla Townie, has been killed.


DAY 9 START!

THREAD UNLOCKED.

[Robz888]

Vote Count 9.1

Not Voting (3): SpaceAnemone, Galzria, Dylan32

With 3 alive it takes 2 to lynch. Day 9 ends Monday, July 17, at 11:00 AM Forum Time.

[SpaceAnemone]

Well, I woke up to a night phase this morning... that wasn't exactly what I'd expected. Fellow townies, what happened to looking at evidence and then adding it all up/multiplying it all out?
Can we please agree to not voting at all in the next few IRL days at least? :-)

What made you all want to vote sudgy? He seemed to be the one of us with absolutely the least opportunity to have managed a fake-claim as he stated it :-( I was coming round to the opinion that O might have to be the option because of Awaclus having hamstring up with certain information-gathering from him... but at least that doesn't have to be on the table for today. I hate the level of WIFOM in general that's left here, though!!

[Dylan32]

Yeah, I just couldn't get past my pretty big scum read on sudgy and looking at his voting history (specifically the lack of scum lynches other than Ash, which it seems most scum wanted to bus). Plus the game felt like it was starting to stall, so I sort of hoped L-1 would bring people back in (once everyone was awake).  I had no idea O would jump on and hammer roughly 2 hours later without any more discussion...

That said, I think scum might have made a mistake hammering O, because that hammer seemed kind of scummy... maybe too scummy to be scum I guess with the flip, but yeah out of the rest of you alive immediately after the hammer, I would have been leaning scum : O << Space slightly < Galz : town. My official prediction in my QT was that Space would be the NK, scum!O and Galz would lynch me and scum!O would win. I guess I'm relieved that I'm wrong about that at least.

[Galzria]

Wait... what?

I kept bugging Robz in my QT last night to send me the speccy (I knew he wouldn't respond. 11:00pm my time is 2:00am his/forum) because I was certain that I was going to be the NK.

Why in the world kill O over me? I mean, I get that one of us had to die because it was highly unlikely we would vote for each other - but I don't understand choosing him over me.

Dylan, is it because O had you lined up if Sudgy flipped town and you didn't want to risk that fight?

Space, is it because.... hell. I don't even have a good reason for you to do it. Maybe you thought my town read on you was stronger than O's?

Bloody hell. Kill makes no sense.

I've got all of today off work. Going to pull the game print and reread both of you one more time looking at:

- Scum interactions
- Vote (and stated intent) history
- Claims
- Where your thoughts were on the game following the iguana and LaLight lynches (when things looked very different for town)

If there is anything else either of you feel I should look at, speak up. I'll look over previous games if you want to link out.

[Dylan32]

Ok, so Space just posted first and didn't acknowledge the oddness of the NK, whereas both Galz and I are apparently confused by it.  Space does immediately mention the WIFOM here though, which seems to be the only valid logic for leaving Galz alive if Galz is town. Since it was immediately on Space's mind, that would imply they had thought about it before.  So from the initial posts, Space is scummy for being the odd Anemone out.

[Galzria]

(Apologies ahead of time for lack of quotes or links. Working off two mobile devices - one in print and one in reply. I'm just reading through and noting things that stand out).

Space D1:

- RVS vote exchange with LL to open the game.
- Spends far more time trying to interact with Calamitas and get him posting than anybody else. Actively tries on multiple occasions to engage him with a stated intent to try and get him not to lurk.
- Takes offense at mcmc calling out the LL vote - maybe a little too much? Especially as mcmc was essentially just asking for more detail on why it was there.
- First vote out of RVS goes to mcmc on mostly the above offense that he would question the LL vote.
- Again tries to engage Cal, this time in a mostly safe theory type post.
- Chooses to respond to LL's post about being ignored with a hug, but doesn't actually respond to any of LL's actual posts.
- Defends LL after I start pushing him regarding his J Reggie wagon claim (that scum left the Reggie wagon in an effort to derail it - and that this was true regardless of Reggie's alignment).

**********

A lot of interaction surrounding LL & Calamitas d1. If you look past the theory/setup talk (which is alignment - neutral) it definitely stands out a little bit. Space interacts with mcmc, Faust, TWM and others though too - but seemingly (to my eyes) in a slightly less direct fashion. The big thing here is the response to mcmc calling them out over the LL vote. Feels a little forced. Like they didn't expect anybody to care about the RVS vote and then were a little put off that mcmc brought it up.

**********
Dylan D1:

- Interesting early post on his thoughts regarding the winning game choice. Now that we know that it's M19, "Since more newer people are around, a more recent game was the likely winner" could be seen as a misdirection. That said, he claimed to have guessed 80, which fits this line of thinking.
- His first scum interaction is to respond to iguana calling out Ash for potentially SK hunting. In it he defends Ash's post as being far less likely to come from scum!Ash than town!Ash as Ash in general sees SK hunting as a scum tell and thus wouldn't engage in it in public. Both Iguana and Ash were scum, so...
- Iguana and Dylan seem to interact in ways that create conversation, but don't really do anything for the game. It's just noise.

**********

With the exception of two posts interacting with Iguana (neither of which are anything close to alignment indicative), Dylan doesn't speak to, about, or with any scum whatsoever. Doesn't mention them by name, doesn't... anything. It's almost bizarre because he DOES interact with a lot of people (more than I recall). Absolutely nothing he does D1 suggests partnership.

Space (or Dylan), do either of you know Dylan's feelings on bussing?

[Dylan32]

The only scum game where I didn't bus at all was my first one when I subbed into NM9, and faust was my partner and we both survived the whole game so I didn't need to.  M97 Ash and I led a lynch of our partner J Reggie using Ash's fake claimed tracker result.  The RMM game where Andrew and I were partners, we mutually had each other in the slight scum read lists and eventually bused each other.  Half the town was with me (including gkrieg and Space) and the other half was with him (Jake and either Joseph or Robz) and one or two were neutral. I could have hammered him I think but he beat me to it so he hammered me and went on for the win and MVP.

tl;dr  I really like busing, and the fact I didn't interact with a single scum in D1 (a) surprises me completely, like how does that happen (b) literally would not have happened if I were mafia. Bare minimum I would have at least said someone was slightly scummy, probably more considering I would have had 4 partners to choose from.

P.S. Not as short a tl;dr as I intended

[SpaceAnemone]

Ok, so Space just posted first and didn't acknowledge the oddness of the NK, whereas both Galz and I are apparently confused by it.  Space does immediately mention the WIFOM here though, which seems to be the only valid logic for leaving Galz alive if Galz is town. Since it was immediately on Space's mind, that would imply they had thought about it before.  So from the initial posts, Space is scummy for being the odd Anemone out.

I may not have explicitly said "odd kill", but yeah, as you notice, the WIFOM mention also covers it! It's all so messy. O was the one person left who seemed to have an easy scum narrative, so I'd have thought scum would want to keep him around, even though his content itself looked townie. If nothing else, Awaclus's incorrect tunnel on him had deprived him of easier ways to prove his innocence, so there was a guaranteed question mark over him.

Scum!Dylan probably wants me out of the way, because I've had a scumread on him since three or four nights ago -- I literally said that I thought LL was scum and that I thought Dylan was probably the other one, but with less certainty. That would leave Dylan with O and Galz... it's perhaps a little awkward because getting O to vote for Galz looked like it might have been hard work, but getting Galz to vote for O might have been more doable.

Scum!Galz probably wanted O alive, because O was treating Galz like an IC, so it's also a kill that doesn't work from that angle. There isn't even a way in which it seems like the kill would frame me, if that was a scum plan.

I have tomorrow evening essentially free, so I'll have more time for thinking and analysis then.

[Galzria]

Got sidetracked yesterday. My D2 look is half done in browser right now. I'll finish and post by this evening.

[SpaceAnemone]

Oops, just slipped over the 24 hour mark. Sorry! I've been here reading things for a while.. just not posting yet. Will do shortly.

[Dylan32]

Yeah, I'm also just over the 24 hour mark. I have an appointment in 40 minutes, so I'll be around afterwards for a bit hopefully. I'll have the tab open, but probably won't actually be here.

[SpaceAnemone]

With the exception of two posts interacting with Iguana (neither of which are anything close to alignment indicative), Dylan doesn't speak to, about, or with any scum whatsoever. Doesn't mention them by name, doesn't... anything. It's almost bizarre because he DOES interact with a lot of people (more than I recall). Absolutely nothing he does D1 suggests partnership.

He mentions me by name in his very first post, and from town!you's point of view, that ought to count as potential scum, especially since you'd just finished pointing out that my D1 had elements that felt forced and stood out :-P

I've just gone and made a tally, and the people he didn't talk to/about, quote, or vote for are Calamitas, LaLight, Eevee and Awaclus.. so the fact that there are 2 scum in there is quite high. Though most people forget Calamitas, so really LL is the surprising one.

[SpaceAnemone]

Yeah, I'm also just over the 24 hour mark. I have an appointment in 40 minutes, so I'll be around afterwards for a bit hopefully. I'll have the tab open, but probably won't actually be here.

I think it only shows someone as online when a page is request if that person been active on the site (i.e. requesting a page) in the 15 minutes before loading... I don't think leaving a tab open sends information back to the server.

Mainly responding to this now because it's just reminded me that Galz was showing up as online at the point I first noticed the game had re-started, but he wasn't saying anything. I was even a little bit slow to post my response, because I was in the middle of some work (my nominal leave-the-office target is 18.30, or 13.30 forum time, and I posted just before that). Anyway, Galz's lurkiness coming into the lylo day a bit at odds with the immediacy (the "wait, what?" stuff) of his response when it did come through. Though Dylan is the one who seemed to be scumreading me for not expressing my confusion over the kill clearly enough, so maybe these first responses are meant to be more planned-out than I think they are. Anyway, I thought it was weird, but then forgot about it in between because I was busy with choir.

[Galzria]

With the exception of two posts interacting with Iguana (neither of which are anything close to alignment indicative), Dylan doesn't speak to, about, or with any scum whatsoever. Doesn't mention them by name, doesn't... anything. It's almost bizarre because he DOES interact with a lot of people (more than I recall). Absolutely nothing he does D1 suggests partnership.

He mentions me by name in his very first post, and from town!you's point of view, that ought to count as potential scum, especially since you'd just finished pointing out that my D1 had elements that felt forced and stood out :-P

I've just gone and made a tally, and the people he didn't talk to/about, quote, or vote for are Calamitas, LaLight, Eevee and Awaclus.. so the fact that there are 2 scum in there is quite high. Though most people forget Calamitas, so really LL is the surprising one.

My assessments for both were looking for a scum narrative - in which case as the last scum that wouldn't be a mention of scum.

[Galzria]

Yeah, I'm also just over the 24 hour mark. I have an appointment in 40 minutes, so I'll be around afterwards for a bit hopefully. I'll have the tab open, but probably won't actually be here.

I think it only shows someone as online when a page is request if that person been active on the site (i.e. requesting a page) in the 15 minutes before loading... I don't think leaving a tab open sends information back to the server.

Mainly responding to this now because it's just reminded me that Galz was showing up as online at the point I first noticed the game had re-started, but he wasn't saying anything. I was even a little bit slow to post my response, because I was in the middle of some work (my nominal leave-the-office target is 18.30, or 13.30 forum time, and I posted just before that). Anyway, Galz's lurkiness coming into the lylo day a bit at odds with the immediacy (the "wait, what?" stuff) of his response when it did come through. Though Dylan is the one who seemed to be scumreading me for not expressing my confusion over the kill clearly enough, so maybe these first responses are meant to be more planned-out than I think they are. Anyway, I thought it was weird, but then forgot about it in between because I was busy with choir.

I don't know how the refresh works, but I know that I almost always appear as online. Back when I was playing a lot I had over 40 days online more than the next closest person because my phone literally kept me on 24 hours a day unless I went out of my way to close the program. /shrug

[Galzria]

Haha we're all awful right now. This must be brutal to "watch" from the speccy.

I'm at work until 11:30pm forum time and then have a meeting that will run until almost 3:00am. I'll really try to finish my d2 read while at work tonight. I meant to do it yesterday but obviously failed.

[SpaceAnemone]

I just unearthed the following exchange between ash and Galz in my re-read, and wanted to post it rather than just condense it into my notes. It just seems off, given Galz's later claim about having gotten his PR from slot 11. There's no way we've missed a possibility for him to have gotten a PR (scum or otherwise) from anywhere else, is there?

Having reread most of TWM now, I'm finding him fairly consistent. And I don't think his early speculation about IC/2-Shot Vig is all that off based on his beliefs. To be more clear, based on the following quote (and correct me if I'm wrong), you are suggesting that as town with draft #1 you would've taken IC over 2-shot Vig - not necessarily because IC is the better role, but because it would let town know that scum did not have the 2-shot Vig, as well as making an IC:

Why do you think that it would have prevented town from having an IC? I mean, I get what you're saying, but I'm pretty certain that every town player, given the chance, would've taken 2-Shot Vig over IC. Therefore if scum got a top pick and won slot 1, it would be preventing a town 2-shot Vig, not an IC.

I guess I have a limited expectation on the utility of a 2-shot Vig. I would rather have an IC.

This belief makes his early posts about feeling like it's more likely for scum to have a 2-shot Vig over town based on the lack of IC make more sense. I think it's WRONG, because I think town takes 2-shot Vig over IC every time, so the chances of that role going to scum or town are basically equal. But at least it explains the position and makes his previous posts read much more consistent.

You are interpreting correctly. And to be clear, I wasn't trying to assert that my belief was absolutely correct. But wanted to have a discussion about it before making that declaration.

Isn't it absolutely incorrect given the way 11-13 work?

That's a good point, and not even something I had considered.

[SpaceAnemone]

As for my D1 re-read and wagon-read, I've filled in most of the stuff re-reading Galz, but not gone back over Dylan yet for the same period. Consequently (I guess?) have a current scumread on Galz, in the sense that I didn't read anything and feel like it couldn't have been placed there by a clever scum player. However, I think it's better that I hold off and only post my timelines and stuff once I've given myself a chance to built up the same scum-read/confirmation bias thing on Dylan's half of it too..

[SpaceAnemone]

Other wagon snapshots, in glorious monochrome because it's really late:

#2478
Cuzz (8): faust, sudgy, PPS, Dylan, Andrew, Space, iguana, Jake
O (1): Awaclus
Dylan (1): Galz
Andrew (4): LL, Eevee, O, RR
Space (1): Cuzz
Not Voting (5): ash, mcmc, Jimmmmm, TWM, e
   -- is Iguana really the only scum out of 8 voters on the Cuzz wagon?

#3325
ash (3): O, faust, Jake
sudgy (1): Dylan
e (9): RR, PPS, Galz, sudgy, TWM, Space, LL, e, mcmc
Not Voting (4): Awaclus, iguana, ash, Jimmmmm
   -- is LL really the only mafia member who wanted to kill the probable-SK?

The answer to exactly one of these questions is yes, and I can't work out which one :-(

[Galzria]

I just unearthed the following exchange between ash and Galz in my re-read, and wanted to post it rather than just condense it into my notes. It just seems off, given Galz's later claim about having gotten his PR from slot 11. There's no way we've missed a possibility for him to have gotten a PR (scum or otherwise) from anywhere else, is there?

Having reread most of TWM now, I'm finding him fairly consistent. And I don't think his early speculation about IC/2-Shot Vig is all that off based on his beliefs. To be more clear, based on the following quote (and correct me if I'm wrong), you are suggesting that as town with draft #1 you would've taken IC over 2-shot Vig - not necessarily because IC is the better role, but because it would let town know that scum did not have the 2-shot Vig, as well as making an IC:

Why do you think that it would have prevented town from having an IC? I mean, I get what you're saying, but I'm pretty certain that every town player, given the chance, would've taken 2-Shot Vig over IC. Therefore if scum got a top pick and won slot 1, it would be preventing a town 2-shot Vig, not an IC.

I guess I have a limited expectation on the utility of a 2-shot Vig. I would rather have an IC.

This belief makes his early posts about feeling like it's more likely for scum to have a 2-shot Vig over town based on the lack of IC make more sense. I think it's WRONG, because I think town takes 2-shot Vig over IC every time, so the chances of that role going to scum or town are basically equal. But at least it explains the position and makes his previous posts read much more consistent.

You are interpreting correctly. And to be clear, I wasn't trying to assert that my belief was absolutely correct. But wanted to have a discussion about it before making that declaration.

Isn't it absolutely incorrect given the way 11-13 work?

That's a good point, and not even something I had considered.

In what way is it off? I was defending TWM (correctly) for attacks made against him based on a difference of opinion rather than something alignment indicative. Ash pointed out further why TWM's opinion on the matter was flawed and I agreed - as it was an additional reason that I hadn't considered despite disagreeing with TWM's premise for other reasons.

It really feels like you're stretching to paint me scummy here Space - and it's starting to feel like scum desperate to find something to stick.

My arguments on you/Dylan for D1 were obviously looking for a scum narrative - so calling out my "lack of noticing Dylan mentioned you D1" is ridiculous (and is arguably a scum -slip on your part if I believed in weighting such things heavily).

The argument that "I was online and not posting" has been tried against me for as long as I can recall. Remember back  in D2 when MCMC thought the same thing and that I might try and steal the hammer? And then I actually ppened my phone, made my presence known and voted when he asked me to? Yeah. Bad arguments are bad.

And now this - O claimed to try for Slot 11. But I won it first. Was O lying about his slot choice you think? .... Yeah. Probably not. So if he didn't get it, and I didn't get it... then where is it? Maybe Dylan's lying and actually took 11? And maybe Faust lied too and didn't actually shoot n1.

I mean... your assertions are a little ridiculous, don't ya think?