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[faust]

I thought about this during Gravity Falls. Now that that game is over, let's start a thread.

We have a frequently-used rule that says cryptography is not allowed. But what does that mean? I want to do this discussion in two steps. First, I will provide some examples and you can decide which is cryptography and which is not. Second, I'd lke people to define what cryptography means for them in the context of mafia games (mostly when they are modding). Ideally we would ned with clear rulings on what is and isn't allowed in f.ds mafia games.

Here come the examples:

1. I am the Tracker and use the word "track" in my first post of the game as a breadcrumb.
2. I am the Tracker and use the letters T R A C K E R as the first letters of my first posts.
3. I am the Tracker and post an encrypted text stating that which can be decrypted by me giving a key.

4. I am the Weak Cop and use the name of my target in the last post of the thread in case I die.
5. I am the Weak Cop and say that the name of my target that night starts with the second letter of my flavor name.
6. I am the Weak Cop and post an encrypted message containing my target for which the key is my flavor name.

7. I am the scum Rolecop and tell my partner that if my target is a PR, I will start the first post on the next day with a P, and otherwise with a V.

8. I use a public key - private key system to communicate with another player in the main thread without anyone else being able to read.

[Roadrunner7671]

1. I am the Tracker and use the word "track" in my first post of the game as a breadcrumb. This is fine.
2. I am the Tracker and use the letters T R A C K E R as the first letters of my first posts. Still fine.
3. I am the Tracker and post an encrypted text stating that which can be decrypted by me giving a key. This seems fine.

4. I am the Weak Cop and use the name of my target in the last post of the thread in case I die. This is cool
5. I am the Weak Cop and say that the name of my target that night starts with the second letter of my flavor name. This is also fine.
6. I am the Weak Cop and post an encrypted message containing my target for which the key is my flavor name. It depends on how it's encrypted. Can you maybe give an example?

7. I am the scum Rolecop and tell my partner that if my target is a PR, I will start the first post on the next day with a P, and otherwise with a V. I did this. And I'm on the fence about it 

8. I use a public key - private key system to communicate with another player in the main thread without anyone else being able to read. Don't know what this is.

[Robz888]

I thought about this during Gravity Falls. Now that that game is over, let's start a thread.

We have a frequently-used rule that says cryptography is not allowed. But what does that mean? I want to do this discussion in two steps. First, I will provide some examples and you can decide which is cryptography and which is not. Second, I'd lke people to define what cryptography means for them in the context of mafia games (mostly when they are modding). Ideally we would ned with clear rulings on what is and isn't allowed in f.ds mafia games.

Here come the examples:

1. I am the Tracker and use the word "track" in my first post of the game as a breadcrumb. OKAY
2. I am the Tracker and use the letters T R A C K E R as the first letters of my first posts. NOT OKAY
3. I am the Tracker and post an encrypted text stating that which can be decrypted by me giving a key. NOT OKAY

4. I am the Weak Cop and use the name of my target in the last post of the thread in case I die. OKAY
5. I am the Weak Cop and say that the name of my target that night starts with the second letter of my flavor name. NOT OKAY
6. I am the Weak Cop and post an encrypted message containing my target for which the key is my flavor name. NOT OKAY

7. I am the scum Rolecop and tell my partner that if my target is a PR, I will start the first post on the next day with a P, and otherwise with a V. NOT OKAY

8. I use a public key - private key system to communicate with another player in the main thread without anyone else being able to read.

NOT OKAY

That's how I would call them, as a mod.

[Robz888]

that "not okay" is for the last one, not the whole thing.

[schadd]

1) it is uh difficult to make a rule preventing this. if you're, say, faust, and you like to open each game with 10 paragraphs about the setup then it may be a little bit annoying to not be allowed to use the words of any of the roles.


2) i have seen almost exactly that on MS - somebody made a sentence somewhat obviously outlining the word "tracker" in the middle of a rather large wallpost. appeal to authority


3) the nice thing about this is that it's rather obviously harmful to the game and banning it doesn't really cut off anything somebody would want to do otherwise. if you say "nobody is allowed to make an obviously encrypted post and then later, by some unique algorithm, give means to decrypt it" nobody's gonna be like "drat. i was hoping on jokingly posting some huge string of characters and then jokingly give means of decrypting it in attempt to find scum"


4) see #1. you can't give any means of decrypting it that wouldn't be apparent without any input from you.


5) lalight came up with the clever ruling that the mod doesn't actually have to flip flavor names.


6) "


7) honestly, rolecop should just give results in the scum thread


8) rarely is it the case that there is someone you have non-main thread communication with but you don't want to hide this.


in theory you could start each N0 in the scum thread by saying "let's kill faust. [next post] actually let's kill schadd [next post] actually let's [...]" and then in twilight say "hey, scumpals, let's do the thing i suggested in /m4." and of course the mod can use their discussion to make twilight longer.


the thing about mafia is that it's so easy to break so many of the rules without punishment (e.g. talking by PM or whatever) and most people are operating pretty solidly on a moral compass; if most of your energy is spent figuring out how to properly break the game and use stuff other than discussion in the main thread to win, maybe this isn't the game for you, and indeed people tend to just phase that stuff out because it's not fun. similarly, mod discretion means you can always just observe something in the game and make the judgement call of "this would be detrimental to the fun of the game" and shut it down.


one can also make rules changes to obviate a lot of encryption-based stuff (i think we should consider making it policy that anything easily communicable in a small piece of information, e.g. rolecop result, is just printed in the scum QT by the mod; perhaps, as well, scum should be able to talk in the thread the night after they're lynched)

[Calamitas]

I think it makes sense to rule that anything requiring additional information (key) to interpret is forbidden and the rest allowed. Stuff like 2 is just stegenography/breadcrumbing and fine IMO.

So I would ban 3, 6, 7, 8 for sure.
5 probably as well because it allows someone to publish their algorithm while hiding information. 4 is fine I think because it doesn't allow that.

[Awaclus]

I thought about this during Gravity Falls. Now that that game is over, let's start a thread.

We have a frequently-used rule that says cryptography is not allowed. But what does that mean? I want to do this discussion in two steps. First, I will provide some examples and you can decide which is cryptography and which is not. Second, I'd lke people to define what cryptography means for them in the context of mafia games (mostly when they are modding). Ideally we would ned with clear rulings on what is and isn't allowed in f.ds mafia games.

Here come the examples:

1. I am the Tracker and use the word "track" in my first post of the game as a breadcrumb. Fine
2. I am the Tracker and use the letters T R A C K E R as the first letters of my first posts. Not fine
3. I am the Tracker and post an encrypted text stating that which can be decrypted by me giving a key. Not fine

4. I am the Weak Cop and use the name of my target in the last post of the thread in case I die. Fine
5. I am the Weak Cop and say that the name of my target that night starts with the second letter of my flavor name. I prefer allowing this but not flipping flavor names at all.
6. I am the Weak Cop and post an encrypted message containing my target for which the key is my flavor name. Not okay

7. I am the scum Rolecop and tell my partner that if my target is a PR, I will start the first post on the next day with a P, and otherwise with a V. Fine

8. I use a public key - private key system to communicate with another player in the main thread without anyone else being able to read. Not fine

The reason why the cryptography rule exists is to prevent town from ICing themselves. If you mention the word track in your first post, either it sticks out and you out yourself as the tracker immediately, or it sounds natural for a non-tracker to say too and then it isn't going to prove that you've planned to claim tracker since the start of the game. The second and the third example are designed to get around this, and getting around it would give town an unfair advantage. The same goes for coming up with a very difficult puzzle that only you know how to solve, etc.

Similarly, 4 is just the kind of breadcrumbing that people do and it's supposed to be a part of the game. 5 is not supposed to be a part of the game, but I feel like that's only because flavor names aren't really supposed to be a part of the game either (at least not in normal games) — I think saying stuff like "I'm a PR and tonight I'm going to target player A if I'm a Roleblocker and player B if I'm a Doctor" should be allowed. Posting an encrypted message with your role as the key probably shouldn't be allowed just for the reason that it requires an external tool (or a lot of work) to read it.

I don't think 7 breaks anything. It's basically the same as telling my partner that if my target is a PR, I'm going to act frustrated about something. It is inherently the case that scum is able to communicate simple enough things in the main thread without anyone else knowing what's going on, so might as well allow something like this.

[Eevee]

I agree with Awaclus 100%.

[gkrieg13]

I agree with Awaclus except for on 7. I don't think that should be allowed. The reason why scum don't have an open QT during the day is because it forces them to communicate with each other in the main thread and I think passing information secretly in the main thread is unfair.

[LaLight]

I agree with Awaclus except for on 7. I don't think that should be allowed. The reason why scum don't have an open QT during the day is because it forces them to communicate with each other in the main thread and I think passing information secretly in the main thread is unfair.

So, "If X is PR, I will vote him first thing in a day", "If X is PR I will start my first post with R", "If X is PR, I am gonna be ultrafrustrated" are all the same and should be banned? I don't think so. I am with Awaclus on this one.

[schadd]

oh, something i forgot to add. who can find the vig breadcrumb in my post?

[gkrieg13]

I agree with Awaclus except for on 7. I don't think that should be allowed. The reason why scum don't have an open QT during the day is because it forces them to communicate with each other in the main thread and I think passing information secretly in the main thread is unfair.

So, "If X is PR, I will vote him first thing in a day", "If X is PR I will start my first post with R", "If X is PR, I am gonna be ultrafrustrated" are all the same and should be banned? I don't think so. I am with Awaclus on this one.

I think cryptography could be described as something that only people with special knowledge can read, which means those all found as cryptography because you can agree on a key before hand.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

I am with whomever said that results should be available to all mafia players before night ends. Then there is no need for cryptography.

[Awaclus]

I agree with Awaclus except for on 7. I don't think that should be allowed. The reason why scum don't have an open QT during the day is because it forces them to communicate with each other in the main thread and I think passing information secretly in the main thread is unfair.

So, "If X is PR, I will vote him first thing in a day", "If X is PR I will start my first post with R", "If X is PR, I am gonna be ultrafrustrated" are all the same and should be banned? I don't think so. I am with Awaclus on this one.

I think cryptography could be described as something that only people with special knowledge can read, which means those all found as cryptography because you can agree on a key before hand.

But everything that Mafia says can be described as something that only people with special knowledge can read. Mafia gets to discuss stuff in a private QT specifically to come up with strategies and agree on a bunch of stuff. For instance, they can organize things in such a way that they aren't voting for the same person. Which is literally the same as saying "if I vote for Awaclus, that means I want you to vote for someone else". Which is just as much cryptography as saying "if I vote for Awaclus, that means he's a PR".

[gkrieg13]

I mean mafia already wins more games here than I think they should.  I mean definitely when you look at games where mafia tends to have more roles (like RMM or more role-heavy M games).  Like if you just look at the last 15 RMM games, scum won 11 of them. 

Same thing for the last 15 M games.  11 won by scum.

So I think making more judgement calls that help scum seems silly to me.

[Awaclus]

Town loses so many games because town generally plays awfully. Town needs to stop making mistakes and town needs to stop assuming that town makes mistakes and the win rate should see a very significant increase. Just look at how easy it was to win Kubo blitz when the whole town played pretty well.

[SpaceAnemone]

/tag

I've only just noticed this thread, and I want to come back to it when it's daytime...

[Robz888]

I mean mafia already wins more games here than I think they should.  I mean definitely when you look at games where mafia tends to have more roles (like RMM or more role-heavy M games).  Like if you just look at the last 15 RMM games, scum won 11 of them. 

Same thing for the last 15 M games.  11 won by scum.

So I think making more judgement calls that help scum seems silly to me.

I agree.

[pingpongsam]

I'm generally in line with Robz' assessments of the scenarios but more importantly, I think all of the provided examples should seek mod approval before implementing them. I know I have discussed code words with scum partners before to either signal a bus or a result or something the next day. In all cases I cleared the plan with a mod to make sure it was not in violation of their perceptions of this rule or their idea of how their setup was designed as a framework to be played within.

In short, if you have to ask yourself, then ask the mod.

[Witherweaver]

I am with whomever said that results should be available to all mafia players before night ends. Then there is no need for cryptography.

I think this is a good idea; it would completely resolve the issue.  It makes investigative powers for scum slightly more powerful, but I think it's better.

[SpaceAnemone]

I am with whomever said that results should be available to all mafia players before night ends. Then there is no need for cryptography.

I think this is a good idea; it would completely resolve the issue.  It makes investigative powers for scum slightly more powerful, but I think it's better.

It's not a total solution. The thing PPS mentioned about having codewords for particular strategies isn't covered.

In NM8, I was a newbie scum, with PPS was my scum-mentor. We got silver-the-mod's permission to set up a code word for bussing, so that I knew when it was okay to vote PPS (who scumslipped D2 and went down in flames). We also had a code for "look out, there's a trap", though that one didn't get used in-thread. It sounds like those would be banned under the more strict interpretation of cryptography that some people are suggesting.

[Witherweaver]

I am with whomever said that results should be available to all mafia players before night ends. Then there is no need for cryptography.

I think this is a good idea; it would completely resolve the issue.  It makes investigative powers for scum slightly more powerful, but I think it's better.

It's not a total solution. The thing PPS mentioned about having codewords for particular strategies isn't covered.

In NM8, I was a newbie scum, with PPS was my scum-mentor. We got silver-the-mod's permission to set up a code word for bussing, so that I knew when it was okay to vote PPS (who scumslipped D2 and went down in flames). We also had a code for "look out, there's a trap", though that one didn't get used in-thread. It sounds like those would be banned under the more strict interpretation of cryptography that some people are suggesting.

Right, I meant a solution to the particular issue of codewording results.

My preference is that stuff like that would not be allowed.  It seems like being able to figure out what your partners are doing or want you to do is part of the learned skill of the game.

[Awaclus]

My preference is that stuff like that would not be allowed.  It seems like being able to figure out what your partners are doing or want you to do is part of the learned skill of the game.

Then how do you deal with this:

But everything that Mafia says can be described as something that only people with special knowledge can read. Mafia gets to discuss stuff in a private QT specifically to come up with strategies and agree on a bunch of stuff. For instance, they can organize things in such a way that they aren't voting for the same person. Which is literally the same as saying "if I vote for Awaclus, that means I want you to vote for someone else". Which is just as much cryptography as saying "if I vote for Awaclus, that means he's a PR".

[schadd]

oh, something i forgot to add. who can find the vig breadcrumb in my post?

do clearly it is a good breadcrumb, though one i would hesitate to use in a game for rules reasons

[ashersky]

I somehow never saw this.  I think I disagree with everyone, btw.

I've always included the cryptography rule in my ruleset because it has always been in the ruleset.  I think it's antiquated and serves no purpose.

I think the rule was put in place to hinder communication between known groups (i.e., Masons, scum, neighbors, etc.) in thread.  I am not sure why, though.

To me, if a player uses code in thread to send full messages, it would be fairly obvious since it would look like nonsense to anyone who doesn't know the code, and they should be lynched as doing something secretive (and scummy).

And for the scummy players who need to do this, I tend to solve it with daychat.  I prefer it in setups because it solves a lot of these problems and I don't think it is as much of a buff as people think.

In a no-daychat setup, I would always allow the "if X I will post Y" style codes, as to me they are the same as "if I get three votes on me, hammer me for the bus" plans.  It's impossible to ban all pre-planned actions by a scum team, so why ban any?

The one that would seem to be banable is the whole typing a secret code and promising a key later.  But then again, what a great ploy by scum if they aren't actually whatever they are claiming.