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[Thinkaman]

Intro - Dominion is probably my favorite "board game", and I was a long-time lurker on f.ds since literally before the Dark Ages. (I think Alchemy had just come out when I started reading?) I don't play much online because I miss isotropic too much, but this place has always had a brilliant community I love reading articles from.  I was teaching some new players the ropes recently, and found myself lost in the wiki and forum posts like the old days.

I felt an urge to contribute myself, but anything clever I have to add about Dominion has already been said better by someone else.  Then I noticed that lots of people had mafia quotes or results in their signatures, and got an idea.

So, I enjoyed a lot of random mafia games growing up, and just shy of 10 years ago I started running a personal variant deemed "WitchHunt." I kept iterating on it and well, here we are.

tl;dr:

• Fully Open setup
• 7-25+ players
• Unique role for each player, bifurcated from team alignment
• Dead players participate - A collective night action for dead players on each team
• Strictly two teams - No Kingmaker, Recruitment, ect.
• No Flip
• Explicit but Ambiguous Survivals (Last night, theory somehow survived.)
• Mod-supported/enforced soft-hammers ("deadline votes" standard)

There's a variety of other design goals (improving day 1, universal player agency, clear scum target prioritization, avoiding game end at night rather than lynch) that I could go on and on about, but you get the gist.

I'd copypasta the rules/roles here, but Laura's art is really good so hey: just check out the Official Rules Page with all the pretty pictures.  All the cards + rulebook are there, even an ugly moderator app.


At the risk of making an outrageously arrogant claim, I'm relatively confident that this is the "best" mafia/werewolf/whatever setup. (Shoutouts to The Resistance, which is also excellent but scales better down instead of up.)

IRL game at GDC 2016.

At this point I've probably personally ran about 2000 games; some online, some IRL. (There are no mechanics employed that inhibit either, such as reaction-based decisions for online or private day actions for IRL.) I run about 100 every GenCon in the middle of the deduction alley hallway. It's made to be played a lot. (At the atomic level, much of the design is akin to competitive fighting games.) A number of people in the main STL test group played 500+ IRL games, and a few guys from the old Sirlin.net community played a couple dozen forum-based ones.

These guys. They played... a lot.

We've been through over 360 roles, and let me tell you, there were some bad ones.  I kept a spreadsheet of everything that was tried, so there's a lot of Secret History to be had.

Picture of cumulative prototype decks circa 2015.

At the demands of my friends I ran a successful Kickstarter two years ago, and the game got picked up for publishing by Level99. So now I'll be walking around and see my random mafia setup on the shelf at a game store, or on Amazon or BGG, and it's weird. I never thought I'd make a published "board game", but apparently it just happens. (I could hotlink all those proper nouns, but I don't want to be That Guy.)

Actual Real Objects That Exist™.
See, it's shrink-wrapped, so you know it's good.

Anyway, that's the story.  I haven't hosted a forum-based instance of the game in 2-3 years, because maaan, it's a lot of time to do properly! (I like giving a QT to every player.) When I could go to a convention and run 50 IRL games in less time, the calculus seems wonky, you know?

But I have gotten a lot of personal enjoyment from this community even just from lurking, and you guys seem like one of the more skilled mafia sub-communities I have seen.  So screw it; I'm game to run one for old time's sake, if people are interested.

Cheers!

[Awaclus]

Sounds interesting.

[Dylan32]

Yeah, I'd be down sometime, but just not for a week or so at least. Also, M100 is coming up, so I think a lot of the f.ds mafia community is getting pumped for that, so waiting to bring in a new game like this might be good for sometime after that so both things can get the attention they deserve.

[Eevee]

Sounds cool, I'll play whenever this happens!

[gkrieg13]

Looks interesting enough.  I'd play.

[SpaceAnemone]

I'm interested :-) I agree with Dylan's point about not colliding it with M100 though.

[faust]

I would suggest that this is run as an RMM (role madness mafia) game. We have a queue for these; there are currently 3 games scheduled to happen, see here. We can put you in if you like.

Would also be interested to try this.

[2.71828.....]

Interested.

[Dylan32]

I would suggest that this is run as an RMM (role madness mafia) game. We have a queue for these; there are currently 3 games scheduled to happen, see here. We can put you in if you like.

Would also be interested to try this.

If it has substantial differences even from normal RMM games, and if this is something that people end up enjoying and want to continue, why not give it it's own designation, like WH1?

[gkrieg13]

The only difference I see is that dead people do something.

[Dylan32]

The only difference I see is that dead people do something.

That seems like a pretty good sized difference there, though.

[faust]

The only difference I see is that dead people do something.

That seems like a pretty good sized difference there, though.

Not really. Lots of RMMs had unique mechanics.

[pingpongsam]

I think it's either RMM or BM. Haven't read the ruleset yet. Definitely interested, though. I understand OP may not want to run many games but if it catches on he won't have to around here. I think it is very common for every player to have a QT at f.ds.

[Calamitas]

I would say RMM for the first game and WHx afterwards.

Would participate if this starts after 5th of May.

[Jimmmmm]

The only difference I see is that dead people do something.

No flip seems bigger to me. I have a feeling you'd have a hard time selling that to a lot of people here (myself included).

[SpaceAnemone]

The only difference I see is that dead people do something.

No flip seems bigger to me. I have a feeling you'd have a hard time selling that to a lot of people here (myself included).

All the werewolf I used to play was no-flip. Took me a while to get used to the flips around here :-P

[Twistedarcher]

I'd play this!

[Thinkaman]

Meta-talk time!

So there's two really interesting divides separating mafia communities: Online vs. IRL, and Flip vs. No-Flip.  In both cases players tend to have a heavy bias towards whichever side there were first given a deep introduction to, and players who haven't been exposed to much of the opposite side at all often go so far as to express bewilderment that the other side even exists: "How do people even play that way?"


Many online players with little or no IRL experience see IRL play as some sort of silly party game where everyone decides kills for giggles, and regard it as pointless without vote tracking and a fully public record. "It might as well be random."

Many IRL players with little or no online experience see online play as this pointless exercise devoid of body language, facial reads, and the animated half of argumentation, where determining lies is fundamentally impossible. "It might as well be random."

Obviously both assumptions are ridiculous and demonstrably false, and anyone who feels a compulsion to leap forward and defend their personal preference as the One True Way can be safely ignored.


The same is true for Flip vs. No-Flip.  I was introduced to mafia in a No-Flip context over a decade ago, and for about a year tried to insist that No-Flip was objectively superior.  I eventually had to admit that both have significant pros and cons, and high quality games can absolutely be run in either.

Flip games tend to be more newbie friendly, with their fast and clear feedback loop.  They tend to encourage "shallow" bussing; it's harder to get away with never voting for fellow scum, forcing new players to be at least a little dynamic.  Flip Games also ensure a very steady source of information to fuel daily discussion, and ensures rising tension as town misses and draws closer to certain loss.

No-Flip games have more paranoia, and more (or at least more diverse) game-states to consider at any given time.  While they are more forgiving of greedy "crappy" scum play, they are also more rewarding of longer-term conspiracies: Scum can construct more elaborate narratives and alternate histories, particularly when early bussing scum and setting them up as a martyr.  No-Flip games tend to limit town's ability to play very well or perfectly, by always allowing consideration of universes where their assumptions are wrong.  Additionally, it's a bit harder to play cop in a No-Flip game (and easier to fake-claim cop), in a way I think it probably healthy.

Ultimately, I stuck with No-Flip over the years primarily because it afforded a broader design space for town info.  There's a limit to how much hard data you can give town before the game is solvable (or just really skewed), and Flip is a very large expenditure within that power budget.  No-Flip lets us distribute that amount of town-power in a bunch of other smaller ways, more directly tied to individual player agency.


In terms of meta, all I'll say is that new players who have played exclusively Flip games previously tend to overvalue the Gravedigger (in terms of value to town and as a scum target) to a pretty extreme degree, which can lead to interesting clashes if there are experienced players in the group who, well, have a different perspective.

[Eevee]

I've never tried no flip, which makes me all the more interested to see what it would be like.

[SpaceAnemone]

I've never tried no flip, which makes me all the more interested to see what it would be like.

Most of the time when I've played no-flip, there's been no ambiguity about exactly which roles are in the game.

The other thing I was used to in IRL Werewolf was hidden voting, so the whole idea of wagon analysis being a thing was very alien to me at first.

[faust]

I've never tried no flip, which makes me all the more interested to see what it would be like.

Most of the time when I've played no-flip, there's been no ambiguity about exactly which roles are in the game.

The other thing I was used to in IRL Werewolf was hidden voting, so the whole idea of wagon analysis being a thing was very alien to me at first.

How did you ever find anything out?

Also hidden voting sounds like a bit of a pain to execute IRL.

[SpaceAnemone]

How did you ever find anything out?

There were a lot of no-lynch days (except we renamed lynching to guillotining), and a lot of no-kill nights, because we didn't allow night-time Werewolf communication, so they only killed if more than one wolf attacked the same person... otherwise it showed up the next day as an injury, which went away in time for the next night. Mostly we looked at patterns of injuries as an indicator, plus any claimed PRs. Oh, and being alive at the end was part of everyone's stated wincon, which also altered the game a lot.

Also hidden voting sounds like a bit of a pain to execute IRL.

Not really, but it may not have happened in the way you're imagining :-) To get to the point of being voted on, a person had to be nominated and seconded by two different villagers, at which point they got the chance for an uninterrupted defence speech, before a yes/no kill vote was called. Any number of lynches could occur in a day, with none being the most common in the early game, to give the PRs time to gather information (since NKs were not a sure thing for wolves). No player could be voted on in a given day phase more than twice. For a vote, we just all raised our hands in a fist, and then silently opened our fists for a "kill" vote.

[Thinkaman]

Most of the time when I've played no-flip, there's been no ambiguity about exactly which roles are in the game.

Yeah, no-flip games are usually open.  Most players I know, including myself, tend to think closed no-flip games feel kinda "sloppy" in gameplay.

The other thing I was used to in IRL Werewolf was hidden voting, so the whole idea of wagon analysis being a thing was very alien to me at first.

Wow, I've seen a lot of variations but never private ballot.  Seems like it would heavily encourage passive scum play?  Big power advantage to scum; I imagine these games would require a relatively small scum team?

One thing I have seen that seems pretty bad in the opposite way is final words--people getting to give a minute-or-so statement immediately after they die.  This would be awful in flip, but is still pretty bad in no-flip too; it makes the priest in particular pretty degenerate.

There are tons of voting mechanic variations, but a weird thing I see sometimes is "scum votes double-blind, only kill if they agree." I dislike this a lot, because it harshly inhibits newbie, weak scum teams.  This warps win-rates a lot (new players can't kill at all, advanced players kill just fine--impossible to balance around), artificially encourages bussing newbies to an uncomfortable extreme, and almost always devolves at high level play to scum killing via a preset list rather than in response to the state of the game. (Which is just boring!)

because we didn't allow night-time Werewolf communication, so they only killed if more than one wolf attacked the same person... otherwise it showed up the next day as an injury, which went away in time for the next night. Mostly we looked at patterns of injuries as an indicator, plus any claimed PRs.

Yeah, that!

Though injuries are a more interesting take on it.  Even more punishing to newbie scum, but allows plenty of room for bluffing and wine.

WitchHunt has some of that vibe in that all our survivals are ambiguous-but-explicit. ("SpaceAnemone survived a kill last night.") There's a lot of reasons we do that, though it's rather heavily pro-town in a vacuum.

Oh, and being alive at the end was part of everyone's stated wincon, which also altered the game a lot.

Oh wow, that's a completely different game honestly.  Very political!

A lot of traditional mafia perspectives/strategies degenerate in such a political setting.  Like, cop should probably never claim ever, unless to win the game that turn?  It also heavily discourages bussing, and introduces SUPER obnoxious kingmaker among the scum team to not just out each other.  Gross!

[SpaceAnemone]

The other thing I was used to in IRL Werewolf was hidden voting, so the whole idea of wagon analysis being a thing was very alien to me at first.

Wow, I've seen a lot of variations but never private ballot.  Seems like it would heavily encourage passive scum play?  Big power advantage to scum; I imagine these games would require a relatively small scum team?

Maybe 3 scum in 10? We tended to balance exactly the right setup for the players we had before dealing out the decks. Usually two decks, because each person had a "role" card and a "lover" card, since we included one or more lover pairs... that caused suspicion even within the werewolf team, since a werewolf in love with a villager led to a different wincon in which they needed to kill off all the other players. There were a few stable configurations with 4 or more players, but we tended to count those as worth about half a win for the players involved.

The way the werewolf team worked was that everyone woke up in the night one by one at Fate's command, and pointed/signaled the number of the person they wanted to attack. With more than one solo werewolf, that person showed up as injured the next day, so in a three-wolf game, you'd expect three injuries if they were bad at coordinating. There was a town role we usually played with called the trapper who could place a trap at someone's door; if that person was attacked in the night, the wolf (or randomly one of the wolves, if more than one wolf targeted the person) would also show up with an injury, but town couldn't tell the difference between a trap injury and a wolf injury, except that the wolfsbane (doctor) protected from werewolf attacks but not from trap injuries.

Though injuries are a more interesting take on it.  Even more punishing to newbie scum, but allows plenty of room for bluffing and wine.

It was with my university sf group, so our player set was reasonably stable from week to week, and early in term we'd play easier games. Even with an experienced partner, it can be quite hard to work out who they're going to attack if you don't want to risk eye contact or surreptitious pointing, or if your positions in the circle just aren't convenient for seeing each other. Likely physical room positions for the werewolves was often discussed when trying to narrow the options down!

Oh, and being alive at the end was part of everyone's stated wincon, which also altered the game a lot.

Oh wow, that's a completely different game honestly.  Very political!

A lot of traditional mafia perspectives/strategies degenerate in such a political setting.  Like, cop should probably never claim ever, unless to win the game that turn?  It also heavily discourages bussing, and introduces SUPER obnoxious kingmaker among the scum team to not just out each other.  Gross!

It sometimes led to "scorched earth" among the ICd PRs, where innocent villagers got killed off before risking a final sleep, but mostly people were good about holding a sort of unstated secondary wincon where it's nice to win with as much of the village still intact as possible. We dumped cop (or seer) as a role really on in the evolution of the set we were playing when I last went (a couple of years ago, now!)... cop in itself is too strong a role for a game when there aren't guaranteed deaths at night or during the day, since typically we'd have three or four nights almost back to back with little daytime communication so as to try not to let the werewolves have any chance for daytime communication. That meant we could expect several up-front PR results coming into the game, so PR results had do be diluted. At one stage we had a system of "aura switches" which were randomly assigned by Fate at the start and flipped a person's read for the seer (or flipped everything, if a switch landed on the seer themself), but in the end, we tended to prefer trappers over seers.