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Author Topic: M98: Русская Mafia (Game over! Town won!)  (Read 21921 times)

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ashersky

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Re: M98: Русская Mafia (Game over! Town won!)
« Reply #1775 on: May 26, 2017, 06:13:58 am »

I think generally two scum can kill each other -- you have to think of it as simultaneously pulling the trigger: the bullets pass by each other and hit their intended targets.

If flavored kills are important (i.e., SK uses a knife), then you can stab and shoot at the same time, as I'm sure many action movies have shown us.

That's my take on that particular situation, anyway.  I'd have them both die.
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gkrieg13

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Re: M98: Русская Mafia (Game over! Town won!)
« Reply #1776 on: May 26, 2017, 09:31:10 am »

I think generally two scum can kill each other -- you have to think of it as simultaneously pulling the trigger: the bullets pass by each other and hit their intended targets.

If flavored kills are important (i.e., SK uses a knife), then you can stab and shoot at the same time, as I'm sure many action movies have shown us.

That's my take on that particular situation, anyway.  I'd have them both die.

But doesn't that mean that both blocks should go through in the RB/JK situation?
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faust

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Re: M98: Русская Mafia (Game over! Town won!)
« Reply #1777 on: May 26, 2017, 10:20:04 am »

I am not sure where you are going with this, gkrieg. Obviously it is necessary to have a ruling beforehand, but ultimately it does not really matter what that ruling is as long as it is comunicated clearly and is balanced.
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gkrieg13

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Re: M98: Русская Mafia (Game over! Town won!)
« Reply #1778 on: May 26, 2017, 10:22:39 am »

I am not sure where you are going with this, gkrieg. Obviously it is necessary to have a ruling beforehand, but ultimately it does not really matter what that ruling is as long as it is comunicated clearly and is balanced.

True. I guess I'm saying that I interpret it so that if both the killings would go through, both the lickings should go through, so both are blocked.

But yes, a ruling beforehand that is clear makes none of this conversation matter.
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ashersky

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Re: M98: Русская Mafia (Game over! Town won!)
« Reply #1779 on: May 26, 2017, 12:05:26 pm »

The blocking have specific effects on each other; that's the whole do X until nothing can change it routine from yuma's original resolution chain.

For me, killing each other doesn't affect each other in the same way -- dying happens last, after killing, so dying doesn't block an action from happening.

If it did, all kills would also be roleblocks.
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f.ds Mafia Board Moderator

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gkrieg13

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Re: M98: Русская Mafia (Game over! Town won!)
« Reply #1780 on: May 26, 2017, 12:12:16 pm »

The blocking have specific effects on each other; that's the whole do X until nothing can change it routine from yuma's original resolution chain.

For me, killing each other doesn't affect each other in the same way -- dying happens last, after killing, so dying doesn't block an action from happening.

If it did, all kills would also be roleblocks.

I guess I always interpreted it that way.  Killing does roleblock, and that is why it is always late in the resolution chain.  So to me, dead investigative PRs (investigation usually happens last) shouldn't get a result, but that doesn't usually matter, because they are dead.
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ashersky

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Re: M98: Русская Mafia (Game over! Town won!)
« Reply #1781 on: May 26, 2017, 12:18:11 pm »

The blocking have specific effects on each other; that's the whole do X until nothing can change it routine from yuma's original resolution chain.

For me, killing each other doesn't affect each other in the same way -- dying happens last, after killing, so dying doesn't block an action from happening.

If it did, all kills would also be roleblocks.

I guess I always interpreted it that way.  Killing does roleblock, and that is why it is always late in the resolution chain.  So to me, dead investigative PRs (investigation usually happens last) shouldn't get a result, but that doesn't usually matter, because they are dead.

Well, even if they shouldn't get results, the investigation itself happened.  You can list results delivery as something to be resolved after the death phase, maybe.
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f.ds Mafia Board Moderator

2013, 2014, 2015 Mafia Mod of the Year

Games (30): Mafia: 17, 21, 24, 31, 39, 43, 67, 72, 86 || Newbie: 7 || RMM: 6, 7, 10, 20, 22, 26, 32, 45 || Blitz: 4-7, X, 17-19, 22, 24 || BM: 14, 19

2015 f.ds Representative, World Forum Mafia Championships
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Town: 47 Games, 24 Wins
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11x MVP: M30, M83, ZM16, M25, M38, M61, M76, RMM5, RMM41, RMM46, M51

faust

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Re: M98: Русская Mafia (Game over! Town won!)
« Reply #1782 on: May 26, 2017, 12:31:51 pm »

The blocking have specific effects on each other; that's the whole do X until nothing can change it routine from yuma's original resolution chain.

For me, killing each other doesn't affect each other in the same way -- dying happens last, after killing, so dying doesn't block an action from happening.

If it did, all kills would also be roleblocks.

I guess I always interpreted it that way.  Killing does roleblock, and that is why it is always late in the resolution chain.  So to me, dead investigative PRs (investigation usually happens last) shouldn't get a result, but that doesn't usually matter, because they are dead.
I feel like at the core here is a misunderstanding of how night action resolution works. Night action resolution is not resolve 1 category of actions, then resolve the next and so on. Night action resolution is: Find some action that could not be modified by any other action that same night. Resolve it, then continue. Only in case of conflict do you actually need a resolution order.

For an example: Bus Driving usually happens prior to roleblocking in the order. Assume player A blocks B, and B Bus Drives C and D. The correct resolution should be that B is blocked and their action does not have any effect. If we were to resolve things by category, the bus driving would still happen. In my opinion, that's wrong.

Now the other example is A blocks B, B bus drives B and C (yes B can self-target). Now there is a conflict: B would be blocked, but at the same time if Bs action is successful, they are no longer targeted by the blocking. So here we need to know: What happens first? And if Bus Driving happens first, then it is executed and results in C being blocked.

Now, if killing was also roleblocking, then in a situation where A kills B, B doctors C, we would have to conclude that Bs action fails. But that is not how I would want to resolve things.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

gkrieg13

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Re: M98: Русская Mafia (Game over! Town won!)
« Reply #1783 on: May 26, 2017, 12:35:40 pm »

The blocking have specific effects on each other; that's the whole do X until nothing can change it routine from yuma's original resolution chain.

For me, killing each other doesn't affect each other in the same way -- dying happens last, after killing, so dying doesn't block an action from happening.

If it did, all kills would also be roleblocks.

I guess I always interpreted it that way.  Killing does roleblock, and that is why it is always late in the resolution chain.  So to me, dead investigative PRs (investigation usually happens last) shouldn't get a result, but that doesn't usually matter, because they are dead.
I feel like at the core here is a misunderstanding of how night action resolution works. Night action resolution is not resolve 1 category of actions, then resolve the next and so on. Night action resolution is: Find some action that could not be modified by any other action that same night. Resolve it, then continue. Only in case of conflict do you actually need a resolution order.

For an example: Bus Driving usually happens prior to roleblocking in the order. Assume player A blocks B, and B Bus Drives C and D. The correct resolution should be that B is blocked and their action does not have any effect. If we were to resolve things by category, the bus driving would still happen. In my opinion, that's wrong.

Now the other example is A blocks B, B bus drives B and C (yes B can self-target). Now there is a conflict: B would be blocked, but at the same time if Bs action is successful, they are no longer targeted by the blocking. So here we need to know: What happens first? And if Bus Driving happens first, then it is executed and results in C being blocked.

Now, if killing was also roleblocking, then in a situation where A kills B, B doctors C, we would have to conclude that Bs action fails. But that is not how I would want to resolve things.

I have always interpreted it in the way that you don't interpret it.  In your first scenario, the bus driving would still have taken place.  That is why roleblocking is always at the top of my resolution chains (well except for things like commuting and passive modifiers).
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faust

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Re: M98: Русская Mafia (Game over! Town won!)
« Reply #1784 on: May 26, 2017, 12:41:46 pm »

This interpretation to me has the undesirable side effect that however you organize things, some actions can either not be blocked, or not be redirected, or not be Bus Driven etc. It's counter-intuitive and unfun to me as it limits the possible interactions. It also doesn't follow mafiascum standards.

Do you think that your way of resolving night actions has any benefits that mine does not?
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

gkrieg13

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Re: M98: Русская Mafia (Game over! Town won!)
« Reply #1785 on: May 26, 2017, 12:59:27 pm »

This interpretation to me has the undesirable side effect that however you organize things, some actions can either not be blocked, or not be redirected, or not be Bus Driven etc. It's counter-intuitive and unfun to me as it limits the possible interactions. It also doesn't follow mafiascum standards.

Do you think that your way of resolving night actions has any benefits that mine does not?

I don't think there are any benefits, but I also don't think it is counter-intuitive and unfun.  I think it is just a different way.

The biggest side-effect is that some actions become stronger (higher up the chain), and that some actions become weaker.  I guess I haven't really considered your interpretation of it though (which means it doesn't come up very often that the two interpretations are different).
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faust

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Re: M98: Русская Mafia (Game over! Town won!)
« Reply #1786 on: May 26, 2017, 01:19:02 pm »

This interpretation to me has the undesirable side effect that however you organize things, some actions can either not be blocked, or not be redirected, or not be Bus Driven etc. It's counter-intuitive and unfun to me as it limits the possible interactions. It also doesn't follow mafiascum standards.

Do you think that your way of resolving night actions has any benefits that mine does not?

I don't think there are any benefits, but I also don't think it is counter-intuitive and unfun.  I think it is just a different way.

The biggest side-effect is that some actions become stronger (higher up the chain), and that some actions become weaker.  I guess I haven't really considered your interpretation of it though (which means it doesn't come up very often that the two interpretations are different).
I would think that most RMMs should have at least one interaction where this makes a difference.

In fact, the first game I checked in the first night I checked (RMM38, final night) had a resolution where it would have made a difference.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

faust

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Re: M98: Русская Mafia (Game over! Town won!)
« Reply #1787 on: May 26, 2017, 01:22:18 pm »

And it definitely is counter-intuitive, and also counter what's written in the PM unless you specifically modify them. For instance, Bus Driver would say: "Target two players. Any action targeting one of them instead targets the other."

But that is wrong information in your scheme, since it is not true for any action, so it should say "any non-blocking action", which is awkward.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

gkrieg13

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Re: M98: Русская Mafia (Game over! Town won!)
« Reply #1788 on: May 30, 2017, 11:51:34 am »

And it definitely is counter-intuitive, and also counter what's written in the PM unless you specifically modify them. For instance, Bus Driver would say: "Target two players. Any action targeting one of them instead targets the other."

But that is wrong information in your scheme, since it is not true for any action, so it should say "any non-blocking action", which is awkward.

I think bus driver is the hardest one, because redirection makes strange things happen.  While I do agree with what you are saying, I actually like my way of resolving actions better, because it makes more sense to me.
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