Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 2 [3]  All

Author Topic: Refreshing the Dominion Paradigms  (Read 4454 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

weety4

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 139
  • Respect: +48
    • View Profile
Re: Refreshing the Dominion Paradigms
« Reply #50 on: May 04, 2017, 03:32:44 pm »
0

Some people also play Monopoly.
Some people live above the basement and play boardgames on an actual table, with real people.
Some people also have some education and know that arguments from authority and not arguments.
But some people are beyond good and evil and still living in the Dark Ages.

Do yourself a favour, get some education and learn that arguments from authority are not actual arguments. Or remain an intellectual barbarian.

User was temp banned for this post.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 05:49:52 pm by theory »
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9683
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +9497
    • View Profile
Re: Refreshing the Dominion Paradigms
« Reply #51 on: May 04, 2017, 04:06:47 pm »
+2

Some people also play Monopoly.
Some people live above the basement and play boardgames on an actual table, with real people.
Some people also have some education and know that arguments from authority and not arguments.
But some people are beyond good and evil and still living in the Dark Ages.

Do yourself a favour, get some education and learn that arguments from authority are not actual arguments. Or remain an intellectual barbarian.

Oh, I see. So you have an education, and that makes you an expert at knowing what is or is not an argument.  ::)

trivialknot

  • Duke
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 382
  • Respect: +511
    • View Profile
Re: Refreshing the Dominion Paradigms
« Reply #52 on: May 04, 2017, 05:21:03 pm »
+2

Rather than responding to more weety4 nonsense, here's an interesting case study:



This is a game between Qvist and Burning Skull.  Qvist tries a golden deck, but it transitions to a money deck under an onslaught of Embassies.  Burning Skull has a deck where the only real draw is Procession/Embassy.  What kind of deck is it?
Logged

faust

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1629
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +2118
    • View Profile
Re: Refreshing the Dominion Paradigms
« Reply #53 on: May 04, 2017, 05:21:28 pm »
+3

Some people also play Monopoly.
Some people live above the basement and play boardgames on an actual table, with real people.
Some people also have some education and know that arguments from authority and not arguments.
But some people are beyond good and evil and still living in the Dark Ages.

Do yourself a favour, get some education and learn that arguments from authority are not actual arguments. Or remain an intellectual barbarian.

Oh, I see. So you have an education, and that makes you an expert at knowing what is or is not an argument.  ::)
Hey, he has an education! How dare you question him?
Logged
Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

weety4

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 139
  • Respect: +48
    • View Profile
Re: Refreshing the Dominion Paradigms
« Reply #54 on: May 04, 2017, 05:30:14 pm »
0

Hey, he has an education! How dare you question him?
Look, another guy from pre-enlightenment times who is fine with arguments from authority.
Logged

ThetaSigma12

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1268
  • Respect: +1016
    • View Profile
Re: Refreshing the Dominion Paradigms
« Reply #55 on: May 04, 2017, 07:11:26 pm »
+1

Hey, he has an education! How dare you question him?
Look, another guy from pre-enlightenment times who is fine with arguments from authority.
Ooh! Ooh! Can I be an intellectual barbarian too?
Logged
If you have a fan card you want to be created, just post about it here! I'd love to take a look at it.

faust

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1629
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +2118
    • View Profile
Re: Refreshing the Dominion Paradigms
« Reply #56 on: May 05, 2017, 04:07:56 am »
+5

Hey, he has an education! How dare you question him?
Look, another guy from pre-enlightenment times who is fine with arguments from authority.

Actually, Faust is usually attributed to either Storm and Stress or Classicism, both of which are post-Enlightenment.
Logged
Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

Cuzz

  • Duke
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 390
  • Shuffle iT Username: Cuzz
  • Respect: +585
    • View Profile
Re: Refreshing the Dominion Paradigms
« Reply #57 on: May 05, 2017, 08:35:59 am »
0

Some people also play Monopoly.
Some people live above the basement and play boardgames on an actual table, with real people.
Some people also have some education and know that arguments from authority and not arguments.
But some people are beyond good and evil and still living in the Dark Ages.

Do yourself a favour, get some education and learn that arguments from authority are not actual arguments. Or remain an intellectual barbarian.

Oh, I see. So you have an education, and that makes you an expert at knowing what is or is not an argument.  ::)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y
Logged

Loempiaverkoper

  • Scout
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 41
  • Respect: +46
    • View Profile
Re: Refreshing the Dominion Paradigms
« Reply #58 on: May 31, 2017, 05:36:50 am »
0

Rather than responding to more weety4 nonsense, here's an interesting case study:



This is a game between Qvist and Burning Skull.  Qvist tries a golden deck, but it transitions to a money deck under an onslaught of Embassies.  Burning Skull has a deck where the only real draw is Procession/Embassy.  What kind of deck is it?

First of all great game :) That golden deck was set up so fast, when I first saw it I would never expect it to fail. Really amazingly played by Burning Skull to make the comeback happen.

But about his deck:
It has lots of actions, draws the deck, he trashes, gets +buys and gains (which he makes use of) and goes for big turns buying multiple greens in the end. Seems like an engine to me.
Of course it is unusual that the attacks come from a buy, but I don't see why that would make it an other archetype.
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9683
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +9497
    • View Profile
Re: Refreshing the Dominion Paradigms
« Reply #59 on: May 31, 2017, 08:33:51 am »
0

But about his deck:
It has lots of actions, draws the deck, he trashes, gets +buys and gains (which he makes use of) and goes for big turns buying multiple greens in the end. Seems like an engine to me.
Of course it is unusual that the attacks come from a buy, but I don't see why that would make it an other archetype.

It's unquestionably an engine, but given the context of the thread, I would assume that the question was more about which category of engine (as proposed in the OP) would this kind of a deck count as. As I see it, that brings us back to the point that I was making, which is namely that the proposed categories represent arbitrarily chosen points on two spectra, not actual distinct groupings, because Burning Skull's engine is almost a megaturn engine but it's not quite there, making it an example of a good strategy that falls in between the categories, which is not something that happens with the usual "fundamental deck type" kind of categorization.

In fact, Qvist's strategy is quite interesting from the point of view of the fundamental deck types. He tries to build a golden deck, but that doesn't work, and then it becomes a big money deck. What's noteworthy is that you can actually play Donate/Delve big money and even put a Bishop in there; that's a perfectly good big money strategy if there's nothing better on the board, and the practical implementations of that deck and just a Bishop golden deck have points in time where their respective deck configurations resemble one another very much and might even be identical. However, even as Burning Skull's Embassies are forcing Qvist to go for the big money route, he continues to try to play it as though it was the golden deck for a while before he gives up on that idea, which, I think, is a mistake. Instead of getting the second Bishop, I would have bought a second Gold or three Delves or a Delve and an Embassy to increase the chances of hitting $8 as often as possible.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 08:42:35 am by Awaclus »
Logged

Loempiaverkoper

  • Scout
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 41
  • Respect: +46
    • View Profile
Re: Refreshing the Dominion Paradigms
« Reply #60 on: May 31, 2017, 10:41:59 am »
0


As I see it, that brings us back to the point that I was making, which is namely that the proposed categories represent arbitrarily chosen points on two spectra, not actual distinct groupings, because Burning Skull's engine is almost a megaturn engine but it's not quite there, making it an example of a good strategy that falls in between the categories, which is not something that happens with the usual "fundamental deck type" kind of categorization.


I think that even if the proposed deck types are just arbitrary points on a spectrum they could be of use if they are far enough apart and can help players with in game choices. I don't know if it will work that way, but it sounds like they could be helpful for me.

Or maybe your whole argument is just that calling them decktypes is problemetic?

The decks described in the OP do cover a lot of strategy advice for newer players. It is an important thing to learn that once your turn 9 engine is doing something to figure out where to go. First there is the reliability/payload balance and keeping control. And you also need to know if you are going for 2 province per turn buys which need overdraw or that you can save up more payload for a megaturn.

In the case where the turn 9 deck starts adding more draw for green space or starts adding more bridges or HoPs for a megaturn, I don't see why these aren't different types of decks. And I can imagine there are kingdoms where it is unclear what route will lead to the win, thus making the pursuit of either deck a distinct strategy. (and not 'just things people play that are wrong' like you mentioned before, though that was about 'hybrids').

But you are right that the game here is a perfect example of the deck being somewhere in between. And I agree that given a specific game it is often pointless to discuss after the fact whether it was a good-enough engine or a failed control engine. But on the other hand, given a new kingdom I think the deck-types discussed in this article give better tools to evaluate how to play it then only going as far as thinking of the fundamental types would.
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9683
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +9497
    • View Profile
Re: Refreshing the Dominion Paradigms
« Reply #61 on: May 31, 2017, 11:41:03 am »
+1

The decks described in the OP do cover a lot of strategy advice for newer players. It is an important thing to learn that once your turn 9 engine is doing something to figure out where to go. First there is the reliability/payload balance and keeping control. And you also need to know if you are going for 2 province per turn buys which need overdraw or that you can save up more payload for a megaturn.

In the case where the turn 9 deck starts adding more draw for green space or starts adding more bridges or HoPs for a megaturn, I don't see why these aren't different types of decks. And I can imagine there are kingdoms where it is unclear what route will lead to the win, thus making the pursuit of either deck a distinct strategy. (and not 'just things people play that are wrong' like you mentioned before, though that was about 'hybrids').

The thing is, this applies universally to all engines:

1. Trash as much as you can. Add in the absolute minimum economy that you need for the purposes of step 2.
2. Add more draw until you can draw your entire deck reliably or you can't add any more draw.
3. Add payload while accommodating for it by adding more draw until you reach the point where continuing any further doesn't really improve your deck anymore or you're forced to green due to tempo concerns.
4. Try to end the game in a win (well, you should do this as soon as you can even if you're not done with the previous points, but that is not how you're initially planning to have it work out).

The case in which the turn 9 engine can start adding more draw to prepare for greening or adding Bridges to prepare for a megaturn is no different if you have enough time that you aren't forced to green immediately, you add the Bridges every time, and if you don't, you don't have time to make your deck more reliable either so you just green immediately in that case and hope to get good enough draws. After that point, you repeat this exact same consideration every turn (sometimes, this might even manifest in the form of having to grab one Province to prevent your opponent from ending the game, then continuing to build as usual).

If Bridge or other way to improve your payload beyond 1 Province/turn isn't available, you can spend some time in step 3 for just adding reliability to your deck if you have the time, and green when the returns get too diminishing, or just green as soon as you have to.

I really can't imagine a kingdom in which you would ignore adding more payload for any reason other than the tempo concerns. The payload helps you add more components to your deck faster, so you should end up with a deck that's not only able to buy more things per turn, but is also more reliable than you would if you just added a couple of extra components in order to have room for green cards.

As a crude example, let's say your deck is: 1x Lab, 2x Gold, 1x Silver, 1x Chapel. You have to start getting a Province every turn after two turns. You are essentially getting a 6-card hand every turn, except you only have 4 stop cards in your deck right now, so you have room for 2 more stop cards, which is not enough for all the Provinces you want to gain. You could buy a Lab this turn, another Lab next turn and then start to green that would give you enough room for 4 Provinces (plus a 5th one that you don't need room for because you'll never draw it), but during the last shuffle, you could get screwed by having a Lab at the bottom of your shuffle. Alternatively, you could buy a Bridge this turn, a Gold and a Lab next turn and then start to buy Province+Lab turns, giving you enough room for all the green cards you ever want to buy and you will always have 1 extra room for a stop card (you could still get screwed, but it's much less likely), and on your last turn, you can buy Province+Duchy instead of Province+Lab and this takes exactly as much time as the former alternative.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 11:43:39 am by Awaclus »
Logged

Loempiaverkoper

  • Scout
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 41
  • Respect: +46
    • View Profile
Re: Refreshing the Dominion Paradigms
« Reply #62 on: May 31, 2017, 12:38:25 pm »
0

Thanks for the explanation. Makes a lot of sense. The difference I described would indeed arise through different evaluations of tempo concerns. And it is fair to argue that this is more of an in game tactical insight then it is a strategical difference of deck type.

So the open question is then if there are deck archetypes that don't naturally arise out of your 4 point engine strategy. (and are not BM, slog or rush). (and can be optimal on a reasonable amount of boards). I wonder what ideas people have about this.

Logged

trivialknot

  • Duke
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 382
  • Respect: +511
    • View Profile
Re: Refreshing the Dominion Paradigms
« Reply #63 on: May 31, 2017, 02:02:27 pm »
0

I thought the procession-embassy thing was interesting because it's clearly unsustainable.  Procession-Embassy nets you two cards, but removes a component and adds a junk card (Altar).  The only way to trash Altar is with Altar or Bishop, either of which decrease hand size by 2.  So, you can draw cards, but it's more like you're borrowing draw.  But practically speaking, it's the same thing, since the game ends before you ever need to pay it back.

ETA: Oh yeah, you can trash with donate too. so...
Logged

SettingFraming

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 127
  • Shuffle iT Username: breppert
  • Respect: +281
    • View Profile
Re: Refreshing the Dominion Paradigms
« Reply #64 on: June 06, 2017, 06:01:10 pm »
+3

Thanks for the explanation. Makes a lot of sense. The difference I described would indeed arise through different evaluations of tempo concerns. And it is fair to argue that this is more of an in game tactical insight then it is a strategical difference of deck type.

So the open question is then if there are deck archetypes that don't naturally arise out of your 4 point engine strategy. (and are not BM, slog or rush). (and can be optimal on a reasonable amount of boards). I wonder what ideas people have about this.

My engine categorizations are pretty broad, so it's probably almost always going to be possible to categorize every engine in to one of the four (if, sometimes, the line being blurred on which category a deck belongs to). I could certainly see people dreaming up things that don't fit at all though.

The main point of this article, really, was to try to introduce focus into engine play. Rather than just thinking "I'm going engine", to think more along the lines of, "I'm going engine, and this is what I anticipate this deck being capable of compared to the alternatives, and this is how I'm going to play this engine differently than that engine".

Many experienced top players don't usually need to think along these lines as they can see a board and digest it on a more natural basis, but I think there's a lot to be learned by players who struggle to i.e. make big explosive decks work, or to choose between money strategies and weak engines, etc. And even top players can struggle with these things from time to time.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2017, 06:04:35 pm by SettingFraming »
Logged
There are no masters, only those who have spent longer in the depths.
Pages: 1 2 [3]  All
 

Page created in 0.092 seconds with 20 queries.