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[fp]

Of course, the simplest answer is: Unless you have a good reason not to, discard the two cards.

However, the exact answer is definitely more complicated than that. Does anyone have any inputs about this?

[WanderingWinder]

Other obviousness: take the curse when:
1. the curses are gone and you don't have Library/watchtower/menagerie benefits from the discard
2. you run out the curse pile as the third pile and you know they can't get enough VP to catch up
3. You aren't going Torturer yourself and you've got a trasher in your hand (usually)
3a. Ambassador tricks

There are many other cases besides (most obviously in a lot of gardens decks where discarding makes you miss your 4), but the other major point is to take into account how likely it is they're going to play the second torturer before you decide on the first, and, more importantly, how your possibilities for winning the game in the end stack up - i.e. if you need good shuffle luck to win with option A but are devoid of hope with option B, even though it looks better in the short term, you need to pick option A.

[Teproc]

Of course, the simplest answer is: Unless you have a good reason not to, discard the two cards.

However, the exact answer is definitely more complicated than that. Does anyone have any inputs about this?

Well, the first thing to know here is wether or not you are going Torturer too or not. If you're not and have trashing, I think you should just take the 10 Curses quickly and trash them aggressively (multiple trashers than will trash each other in the process), so that their Torturers are much less effective after that. Otherwise, well, why aren't you playing Torturer ?

Also, is your opponent going for a Torturer chain, or does he simply have a Torturer as a +3 cards Militia ? In this case, yes, your rule basically works. If he's going for a Torturer chain and you are too, then I would be quicker to take the Curse. I think most people discard way too much against Torturer, although obviously, in the absence of trashing, you pretty much have to discard.

[rrenaud]

This was the absolute best "gems to gemonade" turn I've ever had playing Dominion.  I turn something really bad (gaining 3 curses), into something really awesome (KCing a torturer).

I get hit by a KCed torturer, gain 3 curses, cellar off 6 cards from my deck, and turn the tables, hitting my own KCed torturer and finishing off by trading post away the 3 curses I picked up at the start of the turn.

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110417-171217-038cf33a.html#mlo-show-turn-15

[drg]

Other obviousness: take the curse when:
1. the curses are gone and you don't have Library/watchtower/menagerie benefits from the discard
2. you run out the curse pile as the third pile and you know they can't get enough VP to catch up
3. You aren't going Torturer yourself and you've got a trasher in your hand (usually)
3a. Ambassador tricks

There are many other cases besides (most obviously in a lot of gardens decks where discarding makes you miss your 4), but the other major point is to take into account how likely it is they're going to play the second torturer before you decide on the first, and, more importantly, how your possibilities for winning the game in the end stack up - i.e. if you need good shuffle luck to win with option A but are devoid of hope with option B, even though it looks better in the short term, you need to pick option A.

The corollary to the 2nd part of #1 is when handsize will benefit you with cards such as warehouse horse traders, young witch, or hamlet - maybe taking the curse will let you buy something better.  You should also not discard if you are able to make a critical buy and discarding will prevent you. Masquerade or watchtower are also reasons to take the curse.  Opponents bishops, masquerades and vaults are more reasons to take curses, and of course, any time you can trash it.  If you're going gardens, you may also be ok taking the curses.

If you are going to get chained as opposed to a single torturer, taking the curse first may save your turn as you can discard it later.  Discarding vs torturer chains is why people hate the card so much - having no cards repeatedly is a sure loss.

It also depends on the trashing level of the board.  Remember that once the curses are gone, the torturer loses it's power, so the longer you are discarding cards, the more overall pain you take.  If there is another curser, it changes the dynamic as well.  You want to run them out before your opponent can start chaining the torturers, and you can also take fewer curses to make the torturer's attack useless.  There is more temptation to discard with the other cursers though, as your opponent will get the curses eventually if he is just using torturers.
 

[DG]

If you're skipping the cast iron reasons, I think there's a judgement of momentum. Do you lose momentum by taking curses into your deck? Do your opponent gain momentum through repeated unchallenged turns and improving the draw chain for future hands? It can be difficult to judge which momentum swing is going to be the most important.

[guided]

This is in some ways a very subtle and complex question and in some ways a very easy question. Other posters have covered some of the subtle angles, but here is the easy angle: If the decision isn't obvious, you've likely lost the game. The right (and easy) answer on the first attack early in the game is almost always to discard down to from 5 to 3. After that, if somebody is playing 2 Torturers on you early in the game, and you have no prospects for using your current hand to either play 2 Torturers (or give out curses some other way) or immediately get rid of the curses you're taking, probably you are unredeemably screwed.

Late in the game discarding decisions will tend to be more obvious.

[Davio]

If there are +Actions available like Villages, you have to be very concerned about multiple Torturers.

If you have a crappy hand and get Tortured 3 times in a row, you may choose to discard them, but you run the risk of being completely overrun by your opponent and may have to swallow some Curses to be able to return the favor.

[Epoch]

I think that there are two almost entirely disjoint modes of playing Torturer:

1.  Your opponent plays at most one Torturer per turn.

In this case, it's fairly rare that you will want to take the Curse.  The situations where you do should be pretty obvious, for example: there's one Colony/Province on the board left, you have $8/$11 in hand, you can not discard 2 cards and still reach $8/$11, you will win on your turn if you buy the Colony/Province.  You have a Trash-For-Benefit card in your hand but do not have a card that you're willing to trash.  Depleting Curses will end the game in your victory.

Not a whole lot else.

2.  Your opponent has just activated a Village/Torturer deck.

Once Village/Torturer gets going, you can expect to get hit by 2+ Torturers every turn.  In that case, you have the choice of taking the curses or literally not being able to do anything.  The latter case obviously ends in your defeat.  So, yeah, you take the curses, and hope that your own Village/Torturer combo activates and makes your opponent take his share of the curses before you get to your full 10.

Though in my experience, whoever's Village/Torturer deck activates sooner Just Wins.  It's pretty hard to get Cards/Actions going if you're being cluttered up with Curses.  So if your opponent has suddenly made his deck click and you're eating multiple Torturers each turn, the correct reaction may be to resign.

[Amaranth]

I think this game that I played the other day really gives a masterclass on when you shouldn't discard from Torturer instead of taking the Curse. On my turn 11 in particular, my opponent had two Torturers and a Fishing Village in hand (as well as two Fishing Villages in play), but they chose to discard all that instead of taking a pair of Curses.

Editor's note:  Fixed link.

[WanderingWinder]

There are actually a lot of ways to beat torturer chains other than with your own chain.
Gardens deck, Watchtower, sometimes library, moat, lighthouse, strong trashing, basically any other curse-giver, embargo, often vault, sometimes horse traders, and, most importantly, just being faster. Heck, I'm not sure if Village+torturer is dominant on even half the boards it's on.

[minced]

I think that there are two almost entirely disjoint modes of playing Torturer:

1.  Your opponent plays at most one Torturer per turn.

Mode 1 basically means Don't Play Torturer in two-player, since in this case your opponent will clutter his deck if he gets enough torturers to consistently attack you.

Also, as long as we're on the subject of torturer remedies, I'd say haven and tactician are both soft counters because they protect cards from torturer discards.

[WanderingWinder]

I think that there are two almost entirely disjoint modes of playing Torturer:

1.  Your opponent plays at most one Torturer per turn.

Mode 1 basically means Don't Play Torturer in two-player, since in this case your opponent will clutter his deck if he gets enough torturers to consistently attack you.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

Also, as long as we're on the subject of torturer remedies, I'd say haven and tactician are both soft counters because they protect cards from torturer discards.

Haven would be a soft counter if you're getting hit by one now and then, but if you're getting pounded by a chain, it does very little for you.
In Tactician's case, yes a soft counter, presuming you can preserve enough of a hand to have it with another card to discard.

[Epoch]

I think that there are two almost entirely disjoint modes of playing Torturer:

1.  Your opponent plays at most one Torturer per turn.

Mode 1 basically means Don't Play Torturer in two-player, since in this case your opponent will clutter his deck if he gets enough torturers to consistently attack you.

Uh...  not really.

I mean, take a well-functioning Laboratory (or Alchemist) deck: it might have one Torturer that it consistently plays most turns.

Or take a well-functioning modified Big Money deck that bought a single Torturer as its one terminal card-drawer action -- just as good as a Smithy, plus an attack, for just $1 more.  Reasonable, particularly if you get $5 early.  This deck doesn't hit you with a Torturer every round, of course, but you still will have to decide how to respond to the Torturer several times, and it wasn't a mistake to buy that Torturer.

Torturer is a pretty decent card even if you don't activate Village/Torturer and give your opponent the stark choice of "eat 10 Curses or have no cards in your hand."  But it's a VERY different card if you can count on "no more than 1 Torturer per turn" versus "potentially 2+ Torturers per turn."

[Epoch]

There are actually a lot of ways to beat torturer chains other than with your own chain.
Gardens deck, Watchtower, sometimes library, moat, lighthouse, strong trashing, basically any other curse-giver, embargo, often vault, sometimes horse traders, and, most importantly, just being faster. Heck, I'm not sure if Village+torturer is dominant on even half the boards it's on.

I certainly agree with the overall point that there are ways to beat torturer chains other than your own chain.

But, to pick nits:  I don't really buy that library, watchtower, moat, trashing, or vaults are very effective counters 90% of the time.

If you buy enough reactions like moat or watchtower to have them in your hand consistently, you've probably screwed over your own deck pretty badly in the process, and village/torturer is nasty in that in addition to screwing your opponent over, it's a decent deck just as a cards/actions engine.

Library is fine if you have a ton of these expensive, terminal Actions, and you can guarantee that you get hit by at most 2 Torturers per turn.  I don't think that's a realistic scenario.

I don't really get how you think Vault counters Village/Torturer at all.  Suck the 10 curses and discard them into Vault to turn them into effectively coppers?  That's a hell of a soft counter.



But perhaps we're getting lost in the weeds.  My ultimate point on Village/Torturer: the worst possible thing that you can do is say, "Oh, uh...  I'll lose several turns in a row to having 0-1 cards in my hand."  Either you should resign, or you should say, "I see a route to winning despite taking multiple Curses this turn," and accept the multiple Curses.  You can't beat the deck by not taking any actions.

[WanderingWinder]

There are actually a lot of ways to beat torturer chains other than with your own chain.
Gardens deck, Watchtower, sometimes library, moat, lighthouse, strong trashing, basically any other curse-giver, embargo, often vault, sometimes horse traders, and, most importantly, just being faster. Heck, I'm not sure if Village+torturer is dominant on even half the boards it's on.

I certainly agree with the overall point that there are ways to beat torturer chains other than your own chain.

But, to pick nits:  I don't really buy that library, watchtower, moat, trashing, or vaults are very effective counters 90% of the time.

If you buy enough reactions like moat or watchtower to have them in your hand consistently, you've probably screwed over your own deck pretty badly in the process, and village/torturer is nasty in that in addition to screwing your opponent over, it's a decent deck just as a cards/actions engine.

Library is fine if you have a ton of these expensive, terminal Actions, and you can guarantee that you get hit by at most 2 Torturers per turn.  I don't think that's a realistic scenario.

I don't really get how you think Vault counters Village/Torturer at all.  Suck the 10 curses and discard them into Vault to turn them into effectively coppers?  That's a hell of a soft counter.



But perhaps we're getting lost in the weeds.  My ultimate point on Village/Torturer: the worst possible thing that you can do is say, "Oh, uh...  I'll lose several turns in a row to having 0-1 cards in my hand."  Either you should resign, or you should say, "I see a route to winning despite taking multiple Curses this turn," and accept the multiple Curses.  You can't beat the deck by not taking any actions.

Moat can block it, but it's so bad as to often not be worth it, you're right.
Watchtower is actually pretty good in a lot of decks, so I stand by that. You don't really want to go out of your way for it so much, but you can a little.  Also, it's good for you either whether you take the curse OR discard.
You don't want to go out of your way for a 'brary, but again, when it's good, you can play it.
But Vault, Vault kills torturer chains. If the three cards in the kingdom are Village, Vault, and Torturer, I'm going Vault every day of the week. By the time the chain comes up, I will be able to take those curses to ensure me my 5th, 6th province.
Fishing Village is harder to combat in this chain in every case.
My overarching point is to think of viable strategies that don't include the chain, if the chain weren't an issue, and a lot of them are going to be able to hang with it.

[Epoch]

But Vault, Vault kills torturer chains. If the three cards in the kingdom are Village, Vault, and Torturer, I'm going Vault every day of the week. By the time the chain comes up, I will be able to take those curses to ensure me my 5th, 6th province.

Hmmm, I don't think I believe you.  To Science!

Geronimoo's Dominion simulator doesn't have a "Pure Vault Strategy" that I saw, so I made one, that basically said: get two Vaults, otherwise do ultimate Big Money.  I paired it up against NGN - Tortured Village.  Tortured Village wins about 62% of the time.

Am I improperly translating your Vault strategy?  Care to mess around with it?

EDIT to add:  COMBO - Caravan/Vault also loses to NGN - Tortured Village.

EDIT2:  Though the simulator may not play properly in response to Torturer.  It looks to me like the opponent of a Torturer always chooses the discard instead of the Curse, which is, after all, my point on what they shouldn't do.

[WanderingWinder]

Unfortunately, Torturer and Vault are both cards the sim plays poorly. But an interesting note is that my bot called 'lighthouse defense', which is basically big money except that it prefers lighthouse to silver (and hence loses rather pathetically to big money), absolutely crushes Tortured Village - 77-18. So actually, going for the cards/draw engine it provides is NOT worth it.
Edit: Not worth it without the attack, that is, obviously.

[Epoch]

Unfortunately, Torturer and Vault are both cards the sim plays poorly. But an interesting note is that my bot called 'lighthouse defense', which is basically big money except that it prefers lighthouse to silver (and hence loses rather pathetically to big money), absolutely crushes Tortured Village - 77-18. So actually, going for the cards/draw engine it provides is NOT worth it.
Edit: Not worth it without the attack, that is, obviously.

How does Lighthouse Defense do against Village/Smithy?

EDIT:  To semi-answer my own question, Big Money Ultimate crushes Village/Smithy 95% of the time, so I think that all this indicates is that simple engines with no +buy, or set up the way the simulator uses them, are not fast enough to beat BM in a Province game.

[WanderingWinder]

I didn't think it would be THAT bad. How did you set it up?
But yes, it's pretty well known that the optimal strategy for a board with the basics, village, and smithy includes exactly 0 villages, a couple to a few smithies, and the rest money.

[Epoch]

I didn't think it would be THAT bad. How did you set it up?
But yes, it's pretty well known that the optimal strategy for a board with the basics, village, and smithy includes exactly 0 villages, a couple to a few smithies, and the rest money.

I was surprised to see no NGN - Village/Smithy that I could tell, so I just modified Village Torturer to replace Torturer with Smithy.

[WanderingWinder]

I just looked at the code for NGN - Tortured Village. Do you realize it will never buy gold and only ever buy one silver (well, okay, it will buy more once the villages run out)? This is a serious flaw in its design, I think, as even great engines can usually take a little more money than that.

[Epoch]

I just looked at the code for NGN - Tortured Village. Do you realize it will never buy gold and only ever buy one silver (well, okay, it will buy more once the villages run out)? This is a serious flaw in its design, I think, as even great engines can usually take a little more money than that.

I modified it to buy up to 2 Golds and up to 2 Markets (so that it can potentially buy 2 Provinces in one turn if it draws out its deck).  That makes it do a lot better against BMU, but it still is soundly whipped, 64.2% of the time.