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Author Topic: M97: intrigue and treason and stuff (schadnd II) (it ended)  (Read 95802 times)

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schadd

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Re: M97: intrigue and treason and stuff (schadnd II) (N1)
« Reply #625 on: April 03, 2017, 05:46:22 pm »

okay so we have run something like 10,000 background checks on this guy also and, like, half of them have seemed super incriminating for some sort of suspicious activity or other but half of them have made it look like he's totally clean. i honestly have no idea. somebody said that he was medically certified but we have, uh, a boatload of files of background checks that just don't make any sense with that. i'm pretty sure that he has claimed to be, like, a babysitter or something

JaketheBaseballGod22 has been killed in the night! He was an oogron with 2 granola bars, a town 2-shot doctor.



Day 3 Starts.
Vote Count 3.0


not voting (5): Joseph2302, Robz888, gkrieg13, SpaceAnemone, AndrewisFTTW


With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch. Day 3 ends Monday, April 10th at 6pm forum time.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 02:18:02 pm by schadd »
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I thought you thought it was a slip because I said 'Jake's partners' instead of 'Roadrunner7671.'

schadd

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Re: M97: intrigue and treason and stuff (schadnd II) (N2)
« Reply #626 on: April 03, 2017, 05:46:44 pm »

thread unlocked
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I thought you thought it was a slip because I said 'Jake's partners' instead of 'Roadrunner7671.'

gkrieg13

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Re: M97: intrigue and treason and stuff (schadnd II) (N2)
« Reply #627 on: April 03, 2017, 06:32:04 pm »

Well I think we are in a pretty good situation actually.

Me being wrong about Dylan, but being the IC means that scum probably bussed, which I would guess they did late in the day.
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gkrieg13

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Re: M97: intrigue and treason and stuff (schadnd II) (N2)
« Reply #628 on: April 03, 2017, 06:35:20 pm »

I plan on reading Space, Robz, and Andrew later.  I may throw Joseph in for good measure, but I really doubt he is scum.
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SpaceAnemone

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Re: M97: intrigue and treason and stuff (schadnd II) (N2)
« Reply #629 on: April 03, 2017, 06:45:59 pm »

Really sorry that my data cut out before I could help with the lynch! I have to say, Dylan was playing a really good scum game up to the point you guys started to suspect him.. I really thought he was towny.

I'm home in Oxford now, so no more data problems :-)

I'm willing to play the sheep-the-IC game, but I'll get to my own re-reads as soon as I have time. I feel like there's been far too little of Robz in this game to form any decent opinions (other than my early scum-read) or look at interactions, though, which is going to make PoE harder than usual.
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Congratulations! Your SpaceAnemone evolved into UniverseAnemone!
Town games: M84(L), M85(W), M86(L), M87(W), M88(L), M90(L), M92(W), M94(L), M97(L), M99(W), M100(L), M104(W), M107(W), M110(L), M112(L), RMM37(L), RMM40(D), RMM41(L), RMM43(L), RMM47(W), ZM23(W).
Scum games: M89(D), M108(L), NM8(W&MVP), NM10(L)   Mod: NM9, RMM38, RMM42.   Pronouns: they/them

gkrieg13

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Re: M97: intrigue and treason and stuff (schadnd II) (D2)
« Reply #630 on: April 03, 2017, 06:52:08 pm »

So I just reread Joseph and Robz, and there isn't a whole lot from either. Robz came off slightly scummier, but he is VLA, so unless more people think he would actually be a good lynch right now, unvote.  I would vote for Joseph, but I am comfortable waiting for his promised post tonight to give him a chance, since it was mostly just a lack of content.  Andrew's last post is slightly scummy. I don't know why town would be comfortable with a slow pace most of the time. Gkrieg's case on Jake makes sense too. Jake, post more.

This is exactly what I would expect Dylan to do with Robz as his partner.
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SpaceAnemone

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Re: M97: intrigue and treason and stuff (schadnd II) (N2)
« Reply #631 on: April 03, 2017, 07:22:45 pm »

Oh, and in case anyone else has a panic and gets super-paranoid like I just did, I think we really can trust gkrieg to be 100% IC. We've had flips from a scum tracker and a town two-shot doctor, so we're firmly in setup 5 territory, and the only other thing in there is the rolecop, which he's claimed without counterclaim.

Interestingly, it looks like Dylan claimed his true tracker result for N1 in that claiming exercise, even though there's no game in which a rolecop overlaps with a town tracker, and Dylan already knew there had to be a rolecop in the game, with a 50% chance it was the person he'd tracked. (Jake's role could have appeared alongside a town tracker in 1/3 game setups, though). It looks like a risk that I'm glad we forced scum into taking, even if gkrieg didn't make more of it, and I still feel that Robz's refusal to play with that is scummy.
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Town games: M84(L), M85(W), M86(L), M87(W), M88(L), M90(L), M92(W), M94(L), M97(L), M99(W), M100(L), M104(W), M107(W), M110(L), M112(L), RMM37(L), RMM40(D), RMM41(L), RMM43(L), RMM47(W), ZM23(W).
Scum games: M89(D), M108(L), NM8(W&MVP), NM10(L)   Mod: NM9, RMM38, RMM42.   Pronouns: they/them

gkrieg13

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Re: M97: intrigue and treason and stuff (schadnd II) (N2)
« Reply #632 on: April 03, 2017, 07:37:20 pm »

Oh, and in case anyone else has a panic and gets super-paranoid like I just did, I think we really can trust gkrieg to be 100% IC. We've had flips from a scum tracker and a town two-shot doctor, so we're firmly in setup 5 territory, and the only other thing in there is the rolecop, which he's claimed without counterclaim.

Interestingly, it looks like Dylan claimed his true tracker result for N1 in that claiming exercise, even though there's no game in which a rolecop overlaps with a town tracker, and Dylan already knew there had to be a rolecop in the game, with a 50% chance it was the person he'd tracked. (Jake's role could have appeared alongside a town tracker in 1/3 game setups, though). It looks like a risk that I'm glad we forced scum into taking, even if gkrieg didn't make more of it, and I still feel that Robz's refusal to play with that is scummy.

You have to accept me as IC because if someone were to counterclaim me at this point, it would just be a lynch both and win scenario.

So everyone sheep me now!!!  JK, I'll probably try to not show opinions as much today, and be asking the questions instead.
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gkrieg13

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Re: M97: intrigue and treason and stuff (schadnd II) (N2)
« Reply #633 on: April 03, 2017, 08:37:08 pm »

I would like everyone to reread if possible and give their thoughts.  I already have my top two suspects after doing a couple of rereads.
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Robz888

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Re: M97: intrigue and treason and stuff (schadnd II) (N2)
« Reply #634 on: April 03, 2017, 08:45:25 pm »

Oh, and in case anyone else has a panic and gets super-paranoid like I just did, I think we really can trust gkrieg to be 100% IC. We've had flips from a scum tracker and a town two-shot doctor, so we're firmly in setup 5 territory, and the only other thing in there is the rolecop, which he's claimed without counterclaim.

Interestingly, it looks like Dylan claimed his true tracker result for N1 in that claiming exercise, even though there's no game in which a rolecop overlaps with a town tracker, and Dylan already knew there had to be a rolecop in the game, with a 50% chance it was the person he'd tracked. (Jake's role could have appeared alongside a town tracker in 1/3 game setups, though). It looks like a risk that I'm glad we forced scum into taking, even if gkrieg didn't make more of it, and I still feel that Robz's refusal to play with that is scummy.

Space, you're probably town I think, so you should come to your senses and stop pushing me. Really.
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Robz888

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Re: M97: intrigue and treason and stuff (schadnd II) (N2)
« Reply #635 on: April 03, 2017, 08:45:44 pm »

Yes, gkrieg is obviously an IC, this doesn't even have to be questioned.
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Robz888

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Re: M97: intrigue and treason and stuff (schadnd II) (N2)
« Reply #636 on: April 03, 2017, 08:46:57 pm »

And it's also good that gkrieg called Andrew/Dylan wrong, because we lynched DYlan without the IC. Which, I should put out, is something I called and pushed correctly.

Of course Andrew could still be scum...
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Robz888

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Re: M97: intrigue and treason and stuff (schadnd II) (N2)
« Reply #637 on: April 03, 2017, 08:48:07 pm »

I plan on reading Space, Robz, and Andrew later.  I may throw Joseph in for good measure, but I really doubt he is scum.

Why do you doubt Joseph is scum? He seems like a POE top contender to me.
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AndrewisFTTW

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Re: M97: intrigue and treason and stuff (schadnd II) (N2)
« Reply #638 on: April 03, 2017, 11:44:12 pm »

Well I think we are in a pretty good situation actually.

Me being wrong about Dylan, but being the IC means that scum probably bussed, which I would guess they did late in the day.

Word. What do you mean "being the IC means that scum probably bussed"? I agree I think scum would probably bus but I think it would also depend on the person. Like I think Robz would, and I would. I don't know about Space or Joseph though just by virtue of not having played with them much.

I plan on reading Space, Robz, and Andrew later.  I may throw Joseph in for good measure, but I really doubt he is scum.

Why the doubt about Joseph?

Really sorry that my data cut out before I could help with the lynch! I have to say, Dylan was playing a really good scum game up to the point you guys started to suspect him.. I really thought he was towny.

I'm home in Oxford now, so no more data problems :-)

I'm willing to play the sheep-the-IC game, but I'll get to my own re-reads as soon as I have time. I feel like there's been far too little of Robz in this game to form any decent opinions (other than my early scum-read) or look at interactions, though, which is going to make PoE harder than usual.

I'll quote Axxle from about 2 years ago and say "the IC is not a god", or something to that effect. He's town, yes, but his reads aren't better or worse than anyone else's. We do know, however, that he has town's best intentions in mind.

So I just reread Joseph and Robz, and there isn't a whole lot from either. Robz came off slightly scummier, but he is VLA, so unless more people think he would actually be a good lynch right now, unvote.  I would vote for Joseph, but I am comfortable waiting for his promised post tonight to give him a chance, since it was mostly just a lack of content.  Andrew's last post is slightly scummy. I don't know why town would be comfortable with a slow pace most of the time. Gkrieg's case on Jake makes sense too. Jake, post more.

This is exactly what I would expect Dylan to do with Robz as his partner.

Are you referring specifically to his unvote? Because yeah I can see that. But the whole "I would vote for Joseph, but..." is just as bad in my opinion. This post just confuses me the more times I read it. Hopefully some of his other posts will be more revealing.

Rereading now.
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Losses: M40, M43, M45, BM17 (?), RMM13, RMM17, RMM20, NM7, ZM18, M100, M109
MVPs: M97
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AndrewisFTTW

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Re: M97: intrigue and treason and stuff (schadnd II) (D3)
« Reply #639 on: April 04, 2017, 12:56:38 am »

D1, Dylan votes Joseph to get some sort of reaction:


Vote: Joseph

PPE 1
Why?

Why are you not letting him react to it himself before you try to get a reason out of me?

A very weak excuse to place a vote on Joseph:

Is this your master scumhunting plan? Vote people with no substance and arbitrarily decide whether or not it's scummy?

Nope. It was to vote with little (or none in this case) disclosed substance to gauge reactions that can be recalled later when there is more evidence to combine it with, whichever way the evidence points.

And Joseph, I would have liked a bit more than just copying Jake there. Want to try again for me, please?

Jake, this is why you don't answer for other people immediately, because then you give them an easy way out of pressure, which makes sense if you are trying to diffuse potential pressure on a partner or you have a night result which ICs them, which you don't.

There's this post-hammer for what it's worth:

I believe my vote should be on Joseph in the most recent vote count.

History of the pps wagon.
- Starts with a Space rvs vote on pps, who then claims scum and self votes.
- It is basically ignored by everyone else for roughly 140ish posts of setup talk.
- Joseph quotes Space's request that more people vote pps and says in effect, "sure I can do that." (paraphrased)
- A bit later Robz joins the wagon with no explanation and without realizing it is L-1.
- Jake points out the L-1 and says he doesn't really want to hammer.
- LL would hammer but not this early in the day.
- There are a few posts that boil down to Andrew asking Jake why he didn't want to hammer, and Jake flips with the explanation that he dislikes D1 so he is now willing to hammer at 12:00 forum time.
- SA wants to wait for Robz to answer a question about whether or not he realized it was L-1, so Jake agrees to wait until Robz comments to hammer.
- Joseph wouldn't mind a hammer, but thinks it might be a tad early for it.
- pps unvotes
- Andrew calls the unvote scummy, does not vote.
- gkrieg says "Scum partner didn't save you?"
- Space: "Or he's trying to save his partner from talking about why he'd put him at L-1?"
- Jake thinks the unvote is scummy and votes. (L-1)
- LL and Joseph both declare intent to hammer, but wait, Joseph is already on wagon.
- Andrew asks if they are sure they want to hammer right now as the game has only been going on 2--actually 3--days.
- Not sure how to describe this:
You guys really want to hammer right this second? This game has been going for like 2 days.
we should just get D1 out of the way asap and if PPS wants to volunteer to end it then he can go ahead and do it.
- Robz did not realize it was L-1 and does support a hammer.
- Andrew votes Robz.
- Robz pushes for someone to hammer.
- Joseph votes and fakes out the mod.
- LL won't hammer until claim.
- Jake says he already claimed scum.
- PPS says that smart people wouldn't actually believe he was scum.
- I posted this.

Consistently supports wagon: Robz, Joseph.
Supports wagon but not this early or prior to some condition: LaLight
Against wagon but eventually strongly supports wagon: Jake.
Hedgy (leans against wagon): Andrew
Hedgy (leans towards wagon): Space
No real stance at all: gkrieg
Probably regrets decisions (a little bit at least): pps

If you disagree with your placement, say so; but this is how I would evaluate people based off how I read it.

So to the vets in this game, both on and off wagon, my question is this: how likely is pps to actually try a gambit like this as scum?

I guess what this big post does is essentially puts the blame for the pps lynch on Robz and Joseph, but he doesn't actually have any reads here so maybe it's not that valuable.

Dylan then ends D1 with a vote on Joseph.

Again votes Joseph for something weak:

Joseph said the same thing about Space saying the cop should claim in #291, and Space replied to that same thing the same way in #296. Plus, Space's original post that Joseph is referring to isn't even that hard to understand.

vote: Joseph

Dylan's "case" on Joseph. He cites the "scumslip" that gkrieg pointed out, a theory of his that scum is less likely to read the setup and that Joseph didn't carefully read the setup, and Joseph's vote on the pps wagon.

Did not realize the deadline was that close... 2 days in and we aren't even that close to the 20 page mark.  gkrieg, as the only person not currently voting, what are you thinking and where would you consider putting your vote.

So hopefully my vote speaks for itself, but I actually feel pretty good about leaving it on Joseph.  The combination of the possible scum slip that gkrieg called, the fact scum seems more likely to make setup assumptions without actually reading the setup at all despite all the early game setup discussion, and the fact that his post to get on PPS's wagon was:

Also, a few more people should vote PPS just in case he's bluffing about his conviction that PPS is scum this game.
Sure. Vote: PPS

Wagon

makes him my preferred lynch for today.

For a small (and therefore I think typically shorter game), we seem like we have made very substantially less progress than we should have by this point.  Of course I guess the way D1 went down has turned this into essentially an extended version of D1 rather than a D2 with good information to use.  The only good thing is that by process of elimination alone, I know there is at least 1 scum on wagon, and I feel like gkrieg and Space have been fairly towny, so between VLA Robz, Jake, and Joseph, the odds of hitting scum there feel pretty good to me. So if need be, I would put a vote anywhere on any of those three today.  I would rather not lynch Robz--strictly because he has had a stated VLA--so I would be down for either Joseph or Jake. I haven't necessarily seen anything about Jake that seemed scummy except for being quieter like his recent scum games.  However, if this is just his new play-style, I don't want to lynch him solely because he is playing (arguably) better.  I do still disagree with several of his arguments, but they haven't looked like scum arguments. So whether you like my case (if you can call it that) or not, the addition of the POE is pretty solid.

Reads me as null and tried to OMGUS bait Jake for some reason:

@Space I didn't forget about Andrew. I hate that this is going to sound like I'm just mimicing gkrieg, but From my perspective, Andrew has been pretty null, so the odds of hitting scum by lynching him are roughly the same as the random chance of him drawing scum. If my town reads on you and gkrieg are correct, the odds of hitting scum in my list of 3 that I said are much higher than the random chance. So leaving Andrew out is more a numbers thing than a I-don't-think-he's-scum thing.

I'm curious if I were to vote for Jake just how much his confidence that I'm scum would increase. In fact, let's try it. Vote: Jake

He finally says something about SA, but just asks a question instead of providing a read:

Jake, why do you think SA has been scummy? I just reread trying to find your reasons, and one mention of it was that you disagreed with one of their posts about Robz and the other you just quoted a post and said this is scummy but didn't explain why you thought so.

Still not committing to anything about SA:

Right after it seems like he's distanced himself enough his scum buddy gkrieg hammer's PPS while SA is still on wagon
That is why I think he is scum

Disagreeing about a read isn't really enough to justify a scum read.

I think gkrieg would actually be less likely to agree with a partner on most things, so I would be more likely to assume at most one of gkrieg and Space are scum, in the case that I'm wrong about both being town.

If town doesn't think Space is the most likely person to be scum, I agree that carelessly being put and left at L-1 really early in D2 after the crappy D1 that we had is kind of bad play for town, so whether Space is scum or not, they had a point there. If you do think Space is the most likely person to be scum, then there wouldn't really be anything wrong with your play there.

Space has already discussed their positioning and stuff on the wagon, so go back and read it and see what you think.

More "by the way" FoS on Joseph:

I actually think I was the one to diffuse both the SA and the Joseph wagons IIRC.

I don't remember about SA, but you definitely were the one that stopped the Joseph wagon, which I still am not sure was a good thing.

A small argument with Joseph about Dylan's case on him:

I actually think I was the one to diffuse both the SA and the Joseph wagons IIRC.

I don't remember about SA, but you definitely were the one that stopped the Joseph wagon, which I still am not sure was a good thing.
So you want to mislynch me? Seems scummy.
No actual reasons given

First, you trying to act like I haven't given reasons for wanting to lynch you is scummy.
Second, if gkrieg had convinced me that you were actually town, I would not still support lynching you. However, he did not. He just made enough people seem to think you weren't the best lynch that I decided to consider other people since lynching you seemed unlikely to happen right now. Despite this, I still see you as scummy.

Saying he would vote for Robz, Jake, or Joseph but Robz isn't a good choice because "no one apparently wants to lynch Robz... because of his complete absence":

your entire scum read against me is based on opinions. If not then please say what it is based on because honestly I've asked everybody multiple times and no one can give me a response.

Literally every read in this game is based on opinions. Excluding PR gained info, literally everything everyone does in this game is based on opinions and interpretations of what has been said.  My opinion is that you have seemed somewhat scummy.  But personally, I am more motivated by the POE I laid out earlier that narrowed it down to Robz, Joseph, and you for today, because I think lynching one of the 3 of you is our best chance for hitting scum.  And since no one apparently wants to lynch Robz--who just showed up--because of his complete absence, you or Joseph seem like the best bets to me.

PPE 1

Here are D2 Dylan reads:

Reads:
Scum - Joseph, Jake
null-slight scum/would lynch: Andrew, Robz
Town - gkrieg, Space

PPE 1

And that's it. Also, here is Joseph's vote on Dylan:

Vote: Dylan I guess trust the PR

PPE: 2

So I see where gkrieg is coming from thinking Joseph is town. Dylan pushed hard for his lynch both days and didn't talk about much else. However, come deadline Dylan posted that he would like to lynch Robz but nobody else wants to, so he wants to lynch Joseph. Except that he didn't push Joseph's lynch at all after that. Part of that is he quickly got a wagon on him and he said he wasn't going to be around, so I guess he never really had a chance to push Joseph's lynch. It still seems like he backpedaled a little bit though. Also, their arguments never got too intense and Dylan's case on Joseph was pretty weak in my opinion. This could mean:

a) He's lightly bussing his partner, not trying to go all out and actually get him lynched, but trying to make it look like it's SvT if one of them gets lynched.

or

b) He's legitimately trying to get Joseph mislynched but not wanting to draw too much attention to himself.

And then we have his "reads". He lists Joseph as scum. In this setup with only two scum, would one them put the other in the scum category like that? Would Dylan do that? I don't know the answer to the latter but I think if Joseph is scum this whole Dylan vs Joseph thing really pays off in dividends. Also it's worth noting that since scum knew there was a rolecop, it would be much more important to keep the goon alive and not the tracker, as a single rolecop investigation outs the tracker. Since Dylan was the tracker I don't think it's that much of a stretch that he would be trying to clear his partner for the rest of the game.

On the other side of the coin, Dylan listed SA as town, practically ignored them, and SA was the only one other than Gkrieg off wagon last night. I know SA had IRL stuff, but they were around at the very end of the night and did not put a vote down. This doesn't really say much in itself, but combined with Dylan "townreading" SA, there could be some WIFOM there. I'll do a SA reread tomorrow. In the meantime, I'm inclined to think Joseph is the goon.
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Wins: M39, M41, M48, M96, M97, M102, M105
Losses: M40, M43, M45, BM17 (?), RMM13, RMM17, RMM20, NM7, ZM18, M100, M109
MVPs: M97
Mod/Co-Mod: M46, M49, M52, NM10

AndrewisFTTW

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Re: M97: intrigue and treason and stuff (schadnd II) (D3)
« Reply #640 on: April 04, 2017, 11:39:37 am »

SA reread:

D1

SA half joking about scumreading anyone who suspects Jake for meta reasons:

11 pages into M88. I can't wait to see Jake in action in this game.

He's very young, and actively improving. I'm going to scumread anyone who goes out of the way to rile him up based on his early games. Set a good example rather than digging for old dirt :-)

A small back and forth with pps. pps puts forth the idea that SA could be scum trying to "nix my town vibe". Not exactly sure what he means by this.

In all seriousness, I think you voting yourself is a pretty null PPS-ish thing to do, so I'm not going to get my logic in a twist over it.

Maybe, because you are relatively new. Or maybe you're scum trying to nix my town vibe because the truth is that scum!PPS would never claim to be scum on D1.

I don't see town narrative for intentionally attenuating anther's attempts at generating a town signal. It's really all town can do at this stage of the game.

It's really all town can do at this stage of the game.

You mean other than scum-hunting, discussing how to make the setups work to our advantage, seeing how people react to each other's opinions and all that sort of stuff? I also don't see why anyone should interpret you voting for yourself as such a grand townie gesture in the first place.

You still haven't said what you think of the setup, incidentally!

Is somewhat skeptical about lynching pps at that moment, or maybe just asking questions to see what Jake says:

You guys really want to hammer right this second? This game has been going for like 2 days.
we should just get D1 out of the way asap and if PPS wants to volunteer to end it then he can go ahead and do it.

How much information do you think PPS's flip will give us now, compared to letting D1 run its course more completely and generating a bunch more interactions between players who may or may not then get flipped later?

How likely do you think it is that he'll flip scum if someone hammers now?

Says it's "attractive" for scum to be on wagon and that's why they're asking questions rather than pushing the wagon hard at that moment:

Why are people characterising me as not supporting the wagon and being hedgey? I know I've been asking questions of others on the wagon, but that's because I think it's probably attractive for scum to want to be on-wagon by now, and I want to probe people's motives.

Asks if we're doing Gkrieg's idea or not, but doesn't actually state an opinion one way or another:

RIP, PPS & LL :-(

Is the plan for everyone to claim rolecop results as gkreig had suggested? And if so, are there merits to extending it to the other possible role results too?
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AndrewisFTTW

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Re: M97: intrigue and treason and stuff (schadnd II) (D3)
« Reply #641 on: April 04, 2017, 11:57:22 am »

Sorry I posted that by accident, I'm still in the middle of my SA reread.
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AndrewisFTTW

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Re: M97: intrigue and treason and stuff (schadnd II) (D3)
« Reply #642 on: April 04, 2017, 12:56:34 pm »

SA reread:

D1

SA half joking about scumreading anyone who suspects Jake for meta reasons:

11 pages into M88. I can't wait to see Jake in action in this game.

He's very young, and actively improving. I'm going to scumread anyone who goes out of the way to rile him up based on his early games. Set a good example rather than digging for old dirt :-)

A small back and forth with pps. pps puts forth the idea that SA could be scum trying to "nix my town vibe". Not exactly sure what he means by this.

In all seriousness, I think you voting yourself is a pretty null PPS-ish thing to do, so I'm not going to get my logic in a twist over it.

Maybe, because you are relatively new. Or maybe you're scum trying to nix my town vibe because the truth is that scum!PPS would never claim to be scum on D1.

I don't see town narrative for intentionally attenuating anther's attempts at generating a town signal. It's really all town can do at this stage of the game.

It's really all town can do at this stage of the game.

You mean other than scum-hunting, discussing how to make the setups work to our advantage, seeing how people react to each other's opinions and all that sort of stuff? I also don't see why anyone should interpret you voting for yourself as such a grand townie gesture in the first place.

You still haven't said what you think of the setup, incidentally!

Is somewhat skeptical about lynching pps at that moment, or maybe just asking questions to see what Jake says:

You guys really want to hammer right this second? This game has been going for like 2 days.
we should just get D1 out of the way asap and if PPS wants to volunteer to end it then he can go ahead and do it.

How much information do you think PPS's flip will give us now, compared to letting D1 run its course more completely and generating a bunch more interactions between players who may or may not then get flipped later?

How likely do you think it is that he'll flip scum if someone hammers now?

Says it's "attractive" for scum to be on wagon and that's why they're asking questions rather than pushing the wagon hard at that moment:

Why are people characterising me as not supporting the wagon and being hedgey? I know I've been asking questions of others on the wagon, but that's because I think it's probably attractive for scum to want to be on-wagon by now, and I want to probe people's motives.

D2

Asks if we're doing Gkrieg's idea or not, but doesn't actually state an opinion one way or another:

RIP, PPS & LL :-(

Is the plan for everyone to claim rolecop results as gkreig had suggested? And if so, are there merits to extending it to the other possible role results too?

Quibbles about why Joseph is or isn't scummy and then goes on to question Joseph's scumread as if that's a reason to find Joseph scummy.

In fact,

Vote: Joseph

for not paying attention to the setup discussion early D1. Scum knows the setup already, they have no interest in setup discussion.

I feel like Joseph is scummy more because he was so terribly fluffy all through D1, rather than just for ignoring the set-up discussion. I think the only serious thing he did at all was vote for PPS.

Well, he did say that I'm his second-top scumread after PPS, but even that fails to hold together: if he thought PPS and I were scum, why on earth would I be sitting on PPS's wagon right to the end? That would have been some really ultra-serious early-game bussing, if he really thought we could be a scum team.

Says it's "funny" how Joseph finds them scummy for seeing the pps wagon through and Robz was "hinting" that they were being hesitant about the wagon:

Because scum do do that.
Vote for their scum partner early, just stay on the wagon and hope to get some town cred for it.

Okay, it's funny because you're accusing me of being scummy for seeing the wagon through, and Robz has been hinting that he thinks I was too hesitant, though nobody is backing up exactly why that's the case. It's a bit of a no-win scenario. I mean, fair enough, it's a non-win because we lynched a VT, but honestly, I thought thought there was a good chance he was scum.


Finds Robz scummy for not participating the in "claims":

I feel like Robz is being really scummy for being so uncooperative and not acting according to the consensus of the town, which is clearly to go through with the claiming exercise. I'm not sure whether that's just frustration at the fact he's going against what most of us agreed, or just that he's being a bit rude about it by describing the plan as "silly", but it makes me feel very bad about him!

Since 5/7 of us had already posted results before he raised any objection to the plan, even though it was first proposed early in D1, I think he's at best unhelpfully disengaged from the game, and at worst he's scum trying to play us to get extra information without saying anything he might possibly be caught out in a lie with, since obviously this makes it really hard for scum to fake-claim later on.

A quick jab at Joseph:

Jake is in this game?

Yeah, and he's made more posts and been more involved in actual game-play than you have!

SA arguing with Dylan about how to "claim" results and Robz's assertion that it's a silly exercise. SA disagrees with Dylan about intentionally creating "interesting" results and disagrees with Robz about it being pointless.

In the interest of actually protecting PR identities, other people need to actually post results that are more than "vanilla" "saw nothing/no result" so in the event someone actually gets a non-vanilla/saw-nothing result, they aren't the only ones sticking out and basically revealing themselves. If everyone does the same thing except the actual PR, this is a self-defeating exercise. I know the plain results are the most likely outcomes, but we do need variety in our claims I would think.

If I were a rolecop, I would have targeted Joseph and gotten jailkeeper.
If I were a tracker, I would have targeted gkrieg and seen him target SA.
If I were a watcher, I would have targeted Robz and seen Jake target him.

Which is why this is a silly exercise and I'm not participating in it.

So I read my post to try to figure out what part of what I said could be used as a justification for not participating period rather than just going along with it, but I don't see it.

My take on it is that he's agreeing with you that it's risky to town if all the players don't actively play along, because we risk outing our PRs. This is true to a small degree, but I think the chance of preserving PR information and the fact that this makes brazen fake-claiming hard for scum to manufacture in the late game are both arguments in favour of going ahead with the exercise in general.

I've also thought of a new argument in favour of your point, actually. Scum has a slight incentive to try to kill off PRs with "interesting" results that don't incriminate them, because flipping those people could give them actual information about other non-scum players. I think it's worth mentioning because several of our possible game scenarios have a doctor present, and I'd like to know that they're potentially aware of this.

SA responds to why I found them scummy for their pps vote, saying they get scumread for being cautious, so they're being cautious about being cautious so as not to seem like they're being cautious:

Out of all of these I find SA's and Joseph's votes to be the scummiest. SA's vote was RVS and they never even commented on pps's "claim" besides joking about it as a reason to join his wagon. So SA pretty much voted randomly, encouraged more random votes, and then just went along with the wagon because hey, as long as they're town it's totally cool if they get lynched right?

What was actually on my mind during the long period in which I didn't unvote was that I get scum-read all the time for being cautious. Take a look at the opening of Stranger Things (RMM 40), where I got scum-read particularly for unvoting on an early-game PPS wagon!

I think PPS is a very strong scum player. He was my buddy in the first of my scum games, so he's kind of the uberscum to me. And while my RVS vote on him was random in the sense of me having no in-game info to base the vote on, my choice of person was based on the fact that I see him as dangerous. When it looked like he was WIFOMing at us in a way I found hard to read, and definitely not conf!towny, seeing the wagon through seemed like totally reasonable play from my point of view.

So in this instance, he flipped town, which is disappointing. I agree that it's even possible it was a wagon comprised mostly of town. However, I feel like Joseph's vote on it was pretty scummy, and I really don't feel good about Robz's play at all.

SA's case on Robz in which they say they find Robz scummy because he finds SA scummy and SA thinks his case isn't based on anything. Looks to me like OMGUS:

So here's a bit more on why I find Robz scummy. He's clearly not been reading the game very much, which is sort of fine, given that he's got a sort-of-VLA in force. But he's still pushing the idea that I'm scummy, based off of pretty much nothing at all, and that is not good.

Robz at #249:
So Space is simultaneously voting for PPS but also scared about PPS actually getting lynched. Scummy.

No context was given for his statement, but I think he's referring to my questioning of Jake here:
You guys really want to hammer right this second? This game has been going for like 2 days.
we should just get D1 out of the way asap and if PPS wants to volunteer to end it then he can go ahead and do it.

How much information do you think PPS's flip will give us now, compared to letting D1 run its course more completely and generating a bunch more interactions between players who may or may not then get flipped later?
-- is Robz misundertanding the purpose of the questions I'd set out for Jake? Jake was putting forward some clearly-questionable reasoning. Scum!Jake could think that asserting a wish to be out of D1 would be generally supported by town players who find game openings difficult (I'm one of them), but town players should agree that getting further information from player interactions was valuable, to give us some context in which to analyse the flip.

The only other post of mine I can see Robz having meant was this one:
I will hammer at 12:00 forum time. If anyone has any objections please state before then.

I'd usually prefer for more discussion but i dislike D1 so I will hammer.

I'd like to hear what answer Robz gives to the question you asked about whether he was aware it was L-1 already, so I'd prefer you didn't hammer before he responds. No need to let him off the hook too easily.

Again, it's an interaction between me and Jake where I'm just working to curb Jake's overenthusiasm for a premature end of D1 without letting us hear from all the people involved. In this case, Robz had come in and put PPS at an unannounced L-1, and it's far from scummy of me to want to make sure he's forced to explain himself!

Then there's me at #274, near the end of D1:
Why are people characterising me as not supporting the wagon and being hedgey? I know I've been asking questions of others on the wagon, but that's because I think it's probably attractive for scum to want to be on-wagon by now, and I want to probe people's motives.

I mean, the fact I was trying to ask questions to extract useful responses from players should be obvious for anyone reading my posts! However, I can absolutely see scum!Robz, who's used to me being more selfconsciously hedgey in other games, trying to use my previous play style to score quick points.

This was followed early D2 by Robz at #290, still scum-reading me, now for "naysaying":
I'm still not a huge fan of SA's naysaying. Vote: Space

I quoted my #274 post again at #297 because Robz totally ignored it. He's still ignoring it, or refusing to engage.

Vote: Robz

SA responding to my vote on them by saying Joseph didn't actually scumread LL later in D1 and so it wouldn't be surprising if he NKed LL.

Vote: LaLight
She's a bit scummy

This was before his pps vote obviously. Would Joseph NK LL after supposedly scumreading him?

Vote: SA

The post you're quoting is #155, which is early. Joseph later said at #254 (which is like twice as far into the game, given that the first game post was #53) that PPS and I were his top scumreads. I already explained my issue with how much logic-twisting Joseph must've had to do for that to make sense back at #301, but that's not relevant just here.

Anyway, combine that with the fact that LL had been townslipping to various degrees, and that several people had declared a town read on him (gkrieg@#131, Robz@#145), I think he's not that weird an NK even for a scum-team containing Joseph. After all, there are presumably two scums directing things in their QT, so the NK decision wouldn't be made by Josef in isolation anyway.

A kind of reads list from SA. Says Joseph isn't engaged, has questions for Robz when he comes back, and says Dylan is "making the most sense out of any of you lot". They also make a big deal (bold!) about me putting him to L-1 and leaving my vote there:

People, this game is sloooooow!

Let's take a look at the player list:

pingpongsam -- lynched. He has excuses for being quiet. Or for ranting at us all in the speccy.
Joseph2302 -- Is now missing long enough to be prodable, and was barely engaged earlier anyway.
JaketheBaseballGod22 -- Uncharacteristically quiet, which didn't actually imply good things in ZM23 (though I'd welcome it if this is a turn of events in which town!Jake is equally able to play maturely now).
Robz888 -- Appears to be genuinely VLA, but certainly has issues to account for when he's back.
Dylan32 -- Seems to be talking the most sense out of any of you lot.
gkrieg13 -- has promised some extra explaining later.
LaLight -- NKd. Several people did the "wow, weird kill" dance, but our vets were townreading him D1, so how weird is it really?
SpaceAnemone -- Spaaaaaaace :-)
AndrewisFTTW -- His posting history shows he's active elsewhere, but is choosing not to respond to me and to leave his unannounced L-1 vote on me.

Joseph and SA agree that there must be one scum on pps's wagon. Since Jake and Gkrieg are cleared that means it's down to one of them, I'm curious how they feel about this now.

So the mislynchers were Space, me, Robz, Jake & gkrieg

There's 2 scum in the game, I assume at least 1 of the scum is in that list

PPE: 5?

So you are just saying that you don't think the team is Andrew/Dylan.

Heh.. that's exactly what I was thinking. LL being off-wagon and town is possibly another reason he made a good night target, actually -- if we actually have two scums on-wagon, they'll need to be careful about allowing PoE on there.

SA gets defensive. Clearly they don't like being at L-1 and specifically targets me for putting them to L-1 and not unvoting:

ummmm just because your not "the biggest scum threat in this game right now" (not sure about this) doesn't mean your not scum.

I'm the person who's one vote away from being lynched right now, thanks specifically to Andrew. He can just about get away with putting me to an unannounced L-1 by claiming this is his careless laid-back game-play and he didn't realise. However leaving me there now that he's admitted he's fully aware that it's L-1, is not good play for town at all unless he actually thinks I'm really a threat. OTOH, if he's scum waiting for a derphammer, it makes much more sense.

Also, I think gkreig's point about your retort not coming from a very towny-seeming place is also accurate.

SA tries to discredit their wagon, saying it's "nonsense" and "unfounded":

Oh please, don't be so dramatic. Just because you're at L-1 doesn't guarantee you're going to be lynched although maybe you're regretting the way you guys stumbled into pps's lynch yesterday now, huh? Me leaving my vote on you is neither scummy nor anti-town and it's pretty revealing how defensive you are and how worried you are that you might be lynched.

Nope, this is me behaving how I think town should behave when there's a nonsense unfounded wagon on them: pointing out errors in bad reasoning coming from scummy people!

Announces VLA until after deadline. Finally puts a vote down on Joseph. Interesting that Dylan said the same thing about voting for Robz: that voting for him isn't useful because he's VLA.

I'm about to be VLA till after the deadline.

My vote on Robz isn't useful because he's still VLA himself. I'll vote: Joseph now. I hope to be on at least by phone from the place I'm going, but I'm really not sure how the data coverage will be...

SA using the "I'm an easy mislynch" defense:

If you were to say "this is usually how I react to wagons regardless of alignment" I would be more inclined to believe you, especially if someone backed you up.

Well, gkrieg could probably tell you about how I make for an easy mislynch target :- P

PPE several because my signal is already getting patchy and we're still not there yet...

SA puts FoS on me all of a sudden:

Where did Andrew go in all this Robz-or-Jake reasoning?

@Dylan and gkrieg, are you both towreading Andrew?

SA telling Gkrieg and Dylan that they would be down to lynch Jake or Robz, no mention of Joseph.

@Jake: I am not a he!!!

Also @Jake: my early case on Robz had a lot more to it than just not being happy about him refusing to involve himself in the claiming exercise. For instance, he kept accusing me of being against/hesitant on the PPS wagon (!), and ignored at least two requests by me to back up his position with examples -- and that was before he disappeared entirely from the game.

@Andrew: I did say several things about set-up earlier in the game, and nobody joined in a conversation. I can't throw setup ideas back and forth all by myself (well, not with much success or any rapid successions of new insights), though.

@gkrieg & @Dylan: if you two both feel like Jake and Robz are the lynch pool for today, I'm willing to vote either one, though I'd readout like to see Robz back in the game first!!

Joseph votes for Dylan and SA says Dylan is off the table because of it. They're still hesitant to vote Robz because of VLA so they switch to Jake:

Ha, no way am I supporting a Dylan lynch just now.

vote: Jake to see whether there's traction there, since I'm still hesitant to push Robz in absentia.

Though with this little engagement in a game that's shaping up to be pretty shots so far, I do think replacement is an option Robz and schadd could maybe consider...

SA says they were scumreading me because I put them to L-1 and then "left" them there, a.k.a. didn't unvote.

And everyone goes silent.

Do you want to put forward a case on Andrew maybe?  When I was scum-reading him earlier, neither you nor Dylan seemed that interested, which worries me slightly.

He was null to me earlier, and now I'm trying to avoid just giving in to OMGUS. Do you remember where your case was? I'll go back and read it.

Going back is more sensible... no way can I quote a bunch of useful things in one post from my phone just now.

He was mostly scum-reading me for behaving in what I believed was a totally justified townie way and being super careless about leaving me at L-1.

How long now till deadline? Am about to be offline for a while unless it's really soon, if signal is even cooperating...

SA disappears for a while and then comes back after the Dylan wagon gets going. These are their last posts before Dylan was lynched:

Archive.. here for ~10 mins. I'm willing to follow the claimed PRs of they agree on a lynch.. is Dylan a go?

Anyone wanna counterclaim gkrieg?

I'm a VT so it checks out for me. Though vanilla is also the safest claim for someone who doesn't know things anyway, so that evidence is only weak.

I think my "archive" = "argh" correction may just have been eaten by my signal trouble :-(

Can someone tell me who is voting Dylan?

So basically SA pushes Joseph for a while, Robz for a minute, unvotes Dylan once their "scumread" Joseph votes for Dylan, and then briefly shows up near deadline and doesn't put down a vote on Dylan despite saying they're ok with it and despite Dylan only being at L-2 I think. They later said their data cut out and they were really only around for about 5 minutes, but they could've put down a vote instead of asking if Dylan is a go or asking who is voting for Dylan. So Dylan and SA "townread" eachother for the first two days and SA didn't put a vote on his wagon and is the only person alive besides Gkrieg to be off wagon. Would scum partners really townread eachother for the whole game and would SA not immediately bus their partner when he was in trouble? There's obviously a good deal of WIFOM but personally I think if they were partners one townread is fine, but the other person would have a null or even slightly scummy read on their partner, right? I mean it just doesn't seem to me like partners townreading eachother the whole game would ever be viable. I found SA scummy D1 and early D2 for their vote on pps and the content they posted but this is more solid I think.

I'll check out Robz too but there's probably not much to go on. I'll do it later today.
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SpaceAnemone

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Re: M97: intrigue and treason and stuff (schadnd II) (N2)
« Reply #643 on: April 04, 2017, 01:29:19 pm »

I would like everyone to reread if possible and give their thoughts.  I already have my top two suspects after doing a couple of rereads.

Sorry for being quiet today -- work is hectic, so I can dip in to read updates, but I don't have a chance to compile a proper re-read on anyone just yet. I'll post something more substantial tomorrow, but I have a number of things I want to put down before I head out for the evening now!
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SpaceAnemone

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Re: M97: intrigue and treason and stuff (schadnd II) (N2)
« Reply #644 on: April 04, 2017, 01:35:24 pm »

Space, you're probably town I think, so you should come to your senses and stop pushing me. Really.

You know, your tone seems kind of designed to annoy. It's not healthy town play to let people off the hook entirely, and it's not like you've been at all townie most of the game, because you weren't here at all for most of it!

However, I'll grant that if you are town, and can persuade gkrieg of your towniness, then we're in a good position. You're the only one who has a good shot at PoE, since you could count on your own hypothetical innocence as well as gkrieg's IC-ness. For the rest of us, we can't work nearly as effectively, because your lack of participation in such a big chunk of the game gives us a really big hole in our reads.
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Re: M97: intrigue and treason and stuff (schadnd II) (N2)
« Reply #645 on: April 04, 2017, 01:41:44 pm »

I plan on reading Space, Robz, and Andrew later.  I may throw Joseph in for good measure, but I really doubt he is scum.

Why do you doubt Joseph is scum? He seems like a POE top contender to me.

I know this is directed at gkrieg, but he said he's not giving many opinions, and it will also end up justifying why I'll probably leave my Joseph read till last.

Anyway, firstly there's the fact that gkrieg has played in a lot of Joseph games before, and has a good feel for his meta. Secondly, Joseph has barely said anything that's actually useful, and seemed to be claiming quite late that he hadn't read the setup, and was actually making incorrect assumptions based on not understanding the general flow of the conversation, like thinking I was talking about asking the RC to claim, instead of about whether everyone should claim an RC result after N1 -- he made that same mistake twice, which feels more like really sloppy play whilst attempting to say stuff than deliberate attempts to frame me as behaving scummily.
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Robz888

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Re: M97: intrigue and treason and stuff (schadnd II) (N2)
« Reply #646 on: April 04, 2017, 01:43:54 pm »

Space, you're probably town I think, so you should come to your senses and stop pushing me. Really.

You know, your tone seems kind of designed to annoy. It's not healthy town play to let people off the hook entirely, and it's not like you've been at all townie most of the game, because you weren't here at all for most of it!

However, I'll grant that if you are town, and can persuade gkrieg of your towniness, then we're in a good position. You're the only one who has a good shot at PoE, since you could count on your own hypothetical innocence as well as gkrieg's IC-ness. For the rest of us, we can't work nearly as effectively, because your lack of participation in such a big chunk of the game gives us a really big hole in our reads.

I was townie and around when it counted: lynching scum Dylan. You ended the day voting for the Doctor, if I remember correctly...
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Re: M97: intrigue and treason and stuff (schadnd II) (N2)
« Reply #647 on: April 04, 2017, 01:48:03 pm »

I plan on reading Space, Robz, and Andrew later.  I may throw Joseph in for good measure, but I really doubt he is scum.

Why do you doubt Joseph is scum? He seems like a POE top contender to me.

I know this is directed at gkrieg, but he said he's not giving many opinions, and it will also end up justifying why I'll probably leave my Joseph read till last.

Anyway, firstly there's the fact that gkrieg has played in a lot of Joseph games before, and has a good feel for his meta. Secondly, Joseph has barely said anything that's actually useful, and seemed to be claiming quite late that he hadn't read the setup, and was actually making incorrect assumptions based on not understanding the general flow of the conversation, like thinking I was talking about asking the RC to claim, instead of about whether everyone should claim an RC result after N1 -- he made that same mistake twice, which feels more like really sloppy play whilst attempting to say stuff than deliberate attempts to frame me as behaving scummily.

This is accurate.  I plan to be asking the questions instead of answering them :)
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SpaceAnemone

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Re: M97: intrigue and treason and stuff (schadnd II) (D3)
« Reply #648 on: April 04, 2017, 01:59:45 pm »

A couple of quick responses to Andrew's read -- mostly to correct errors rather than to refute specific points. I don't have much time just now!

Is somewhat skeptical about lynching pps at that moment, or maybe just asking questions to see what Jake says:

You guys really want to hammer right this second? This game has been going for like 2 days.
we should just get D1 out of the way asap and if PPS wants to volunteer to end it then he can go ahead and do it.

How much information do you think PPS's flip will give us now, compared to letting D1 run its course more completely and generating a bunch more interactions between players who may or may not then get flipped later?

How likely do you think it is that he'll flip scum if someone hammers now?

-- Yeah, on this one I was definitely asking questions to see whether I though Jake's behaviour was scum-driven. I actually explained as much when I was trying to point out how mistaken/deliberately twisted Robz's case on me was earlier.


Joseph and SA agree that there must be one scum on pps's wagon. Since Jake and Gkrieg are cleared that means it's down to one of them, I'm curious how they feel about this now.

So the mislynchers were Space, me, Robz, Jake & gkrieg

There's 2 scum in the game, I assume at least 1 of the scum is in that list

PPE: 5?

So you are just saying that you don't think the team is Andrew/Dylan.

Heh.. that's exactly what I was thinking. LL being off-wagon and town is possibly another reason he made a good night target, actually -- if we actually have two scums on-wagon, they'll need to be careful about allowing PoE on there.

-- you totally misunderstand me here. I was agreeing with gkrieg's interpretation of what Joseph was saying, i.e. that all his post boiled down to was that he didn't think it was an Andrew-Dylan scumteam. I wasn't making any assumption at all about the number of  scums I thought were on or off the wagon.



SA disappears for a while and then comes back after the Dylan wagon gets going. These are their last posts before Dylan was lynched:

Archive.. here for ~10 mins. I'm willing to follow the claimed PRs of they agree on a lynch.. is Dylan a go?

Anyone wanna counterclaim gkrieg?

I'm a VT so it checks out for me. Though vanilla is also the safest claim for someone who doesn't know things anyway, so that evidence is only weak.

I think my "archive" = "argh" correction may just have been eaten by my signal trouble :-(

Can someone tell me who is voting Dylan?

I was outside a cinema waiting for the 22.30 screening, but then the queue moved inside more quickly than I'd expected, given that it was all running late. (This was part of a sci-fi weekender I was at in rural Wales with a bunch of friends). I didn't want to put a vote on a person I townread if there was a risk that I was jumping on a scum-driven wagon, so I wanted to know who was on it... but having only a small phone screen and a data connection that vanished without warning and only served me about 20% of the page requests I made (with a very long delay) made keeping up properly too difficult.

Argh.. typing takes longer than I think it does! Now I have 2 minutes to pack up and cycle across town! :-P
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SpaceAnemone

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Re: M97: intrigue and treason and stuff (schadnd II) (N2)
« Reply #649 on: April 04, 2017, 02:00:50 pm »

I was townie and around when it counted: lynching scum Dylan. You ended the day voting for the Doctor, if I remember correctly...

One townie act in the game, that would be super-easy for a bussing scum player to perform for town-cred... you can see why I'm sceptical, right?
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